Schoenberg loves riffing- Page 2

[Tir Na Nog]

Posted: 10/4/05 at 5:00pm

"Sondheim's may ahve been more intelligent, but when I want a nice listen I'm nto going to put in Sweeney Todd." - WG

You aslo have a "Little Women" avatar. That's says enough.

[EponineThenardier]

Posted: 10/4/05 at 5:20pm

I think Little Women is also underrated Tir, since you brought it up.

[Tir Na Nog]

Posted: 10/4/05 at 5:24pm

"Little Women" was NOT underrated. The show was boring!! THe book was a mess and most of the music was completely forgettable.

The girl who played Amy made me want to kill someone!! Was she not so annoying? Sutton was WAY too good for that show.

[Phantom05]

Posted: 10/4/05 at 5:39pm

Even though this thread ISN'T ABOUT LITTLE WOMEN, lol.....It is an extremely boring show none-the-less. There really wasn't much about it that I enjoyed. The design, the book, the music...They were all just very dull to me, and I thought that most of the cast, not just Sutton, were wasted in this show. Just my opinion, feel however you wish!

Phantom05

[best12bars]

Posted: 10/4/05 at 6:10pm

I love Sondheim, but he's definitely an acquired taste. One of my favorite experiences in theatre was playing Henrik in "A Little Night Music."

If "the masses" truly loved him, he'd probably have had a hit show in the past 25 years. He hasn't. Most definitely an acquired taste.

I love that Sondheim is incredibly picky (mainly on cast recordings) about the singers singing every word and note exactly as written... At least as much as humanly possible. And Schoenberg loves riffing. Interesting.

[Kris2]

Posted: 10/4/05 at 7:50pm

Rather dramatically, [Schonberg] says that as long as he is alive, he wants to see the singers deliver the scores in the way they were written. A little ad-libbing or deviation from the direction is défendu. However, this doesn't mean that the shows are set in concrete. The more canny performers still find a way to add their own flourishes. "I am always amazed by some of the performers," says Schönberg. "I am always very excited when I see young talent rising and adding something to the score which I didn't expect."
- from the interview

This is not an endorsement for riffing, people. It seems quite the opposite. A "flourish" does not mean he supports showing off by riffing out of control so that it sounds like a completely different score.

Sondheim is a special case (whether or not you enjoy his music is irrelevant). He is extremely specific and particular with every note that is written. It's the perfectionist in him. Every single choice he makes has a clear purpose in his mind. Riffing in any way changes the intent and meaning of his score which is a big no-no to him. His attention to detail is actually rather staggering.
Schonberg interview

[Labashier]

Posted: 10/4/05 at 7:52pm

Two things:

Assuming it's pronounced the same as the composer famous for exploring the twelve-tone system, it's pronounced "Shernberg"

Even if you think that Sondheim is the most overrated composer in the world, you can't deny that there is an excellent reason he is overrated. Like his music or not, he has brought the art form of musical theatre to new levels. He pretty much invented the concept musical. Most modern musical theatre composers cite him as a chief influence or inspiration (Jason Robert Brown, I have read, likes very few musicals these days other than ones written by Sondheim).

[GovernorSlaton]

Posted: 10/4/05 at 7:58pm

I respected Sondheim's adamancy to having his scores sung as written before, but I never really understood why he was so obstinate about it. Then I read the "Finishing the Hat" edition of Biography of a Song in The Sondheim Review, and the music is described in such a way that it's very easy to see why he needs his score to be sung his way. Lyrics are obviously used to inform character, but in many instances, his music tells you something about a character or situation that couldn't be put into words.

Also, if we're talking about hits in the purely financial sense, I believe Into the Woods recouped, along with a few pre-1980 (Forum, Company, ALNM, Sweeney). I understand you're point though, best12bars.

[best12bars]

Posted: 10/4/05 at 8:18pm

As a singer, I actually see both sides of the coin. I personally hate singers who riff or deviate, simply as a way of showing off some kind of "vocal gymnastics." This adds nothing to the strength of the lyric, the melody, the character or the mood. If it's purely self-indulgent (which is usually obvious when it is), I think it's God-awful in almost all cases.

But if a singer deviates from the melody as a way of making personal "acting choice" introducing it into the song, to develop a character's feeling or strengthen the song's mood, then I'm all for it. Theatre is a collaborative effort.

So, if Sondheim wants or insists that a singer stick to his exact phrasing, notes, and lyrics as written, then he should go hire robots and program them himself, note for note. That's not what theatre or acting is about. I can't imagine a dramatic playwright dictating every single line reading. It's absurd. And it's WAY too much ego getting in the way. That's what I call a "control freak."

[Forester]

Posted: 10/4/05 at 10:23pm

"Forester -- have you heard Ca Ira?"
Yup, I've been wanting to pick up the CD. Have you picked it up?

[jasonf]

Posted: 10/4/05 at 10:33pm

Yeah, I got it -- I love it, though am having a hard time imagining who the audience for this is going to be!

[Liz_Bennet]

Posted: 10/4/05 at 10:41pm

There's some of what you might call riffing in Erwartung, I guess. Definitely in Pierrot Lunaire.

Oh, wait. Wrong Schoenberg. Sorry.

Updated On: 10/4/05 at 10:41 PM

[Forester]

Posted: 10/4/05 at 10:56pm

Definately not for your typical Pink Floyd fans. I've herd that the overture is really good.

[GovernorSlaton]

Posted: 10/4/05 at 11:06pm

But the reason he writes a score with a certain repeating motif or a certain range of ascending or descending notes in a melody is to bring out the emotion and development of a character. As a Sondheim fan, you must know that acting and feeling is the most important thing to him when writing a song -- your "robots" comment is the opposite of what he wants.

Oh, and there have been instances where he's let actors interpret his songs in their way -- Donna Murphy, Jere Shea, and Marin Mazzie in the original production of Passion come to mind -- but they still allowed his themes and motifs to show through.

[Greekmusicalfan]

Posted: 10/4/05 at 11:07pm

The thing that annoys me about die-hard Sondheim fans, is that they think they have an ownership on quality musical theater, so everyone else who doesn't roll over at the mention of their idol's name, is an ignorant, a barbarian etc.
I STRONGLY believe, that music and theater are a matter of TASTE for everyone. If someone thinks that Mamma Mia or even Brooklyn are great, because it appeals to him for different reasons, NO ONE can judge him and belittle him.
I believe that Sondheim is a very important figure in Musical Theater, because he has influenced many composers and because there must be a reason that he is so respected in the theater community. However, most of his work bores ME to tears. But I would never judge someone who adores him, because obviously he sees something in his music that i don't.
And I LOVE Schoenberg. I enjoy his music way more than Saint Sondheim! If that makes me a poor tasted ignorant in the eyes of some people, I really couldn't care less.
Peace


Updated On: 10/4/05 at 11:07 PM

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 10/4/05 at 11:15pm

If you look at Sondheim as a composer throughout the ages, I firmly believe that he'd belong up there among Mozart and Beethoven and all the other "classical" composers. ALW or Schoenberg surely would not. There's more to music than being catchy and "hummable" and having pretty (read = pointlessly overused) melodies. What about theory? Structure? Compared to Sondheim, ALW or Schoenberg's music is on a very basic level musically. Sure, it's really fun to listen to, but it doesn't have the musical brilliance of Sondheim's work.

~Steven

[ShuQ]

Posted: 10/4/05 at 11:21pm

Where does Sondheim fall in the title of this thread? I agree that it's great that he likes to hear people change up his work. I also love Sondheim. OMG I LOVE BOTH!

[Greekmusicalfan]

Posted: 10/4/05 at 11:23pm

Isn't putting Sondheim in the same league with Mozart and Beethoven a little exaggerating ? Just asking !

[Liz_Bennet]

Posted: 10/4/05 at 11:33pm

I don't think it's valid to compare Sondheim directly to Mozart and Beethoven, as they wrote/are writing in different genres. A composer I would consider a somewhat similar figure to Sondheim would be (gasp) Wagner, since he wrote almost entirely in opera, and wrote his own libretti (and much more). And Sondheim isn't anywhere near Wagner in terms of greatness, though he's a much nicer guy.

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 10/4/05 at 11:35pm

No, I don't think so. I do believe he's the musical (musical as in music-related, not musical theatre) genius of our time, century, etc. Mozart and Beethoven had their own times and centuries. Sondheim is our contemporary.

~Steven

[jasonf]

Posted: 10/4/05 at 11:35pm

I would agree that Sondheim goes up there with the greatest - put I would also put John Lennon, Paul Mccartney, and Bob Dylan on that list.

I do believe that Sondheim's music actually goes beyond a matter of taste -- to deny his talent and influence DOES show a lack of knowledge - this IS different than showing a lack of taste. Of course taste is subjective, but, and I don't mean to offend anyone, I've found that people who don't "like" Sondheim simply don't GET him. His work isn't obviously easy and catchy (though I would argue that much of it IS hummable), and I think that's where a lot of people miss the boat on him - and the major reason his shows aren't successes. His work needs to be listened to and processed - theater by its nature keeps moving, so unless you CAN process what he's done that quickly, a lot of it may well go by unnoticed. I think in that way his shows are like Shakespeare to most modern audiences - you get the drift of it when you watch it, but it takes going back and looking at it multiple times to get the levels and nuances.

And for the record, I do love Les Mis (and like Miss Saigon and Martin Guerre).

[Greekmusicalfan]

Posted: 10/4/05 at 11:36pm

Oh Liz, you've met both Wagner and Sondheim ??? I am impressed !!

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 10/4/05 at 11:38pm

Agreed, Jason.

~Steven

[LostLeander]

Posted: 10/4/05 at 11:40pm

Some posts on here made me cringe.
Melodies? Not many melodies?
Listen to the whole score of A Little Night Music! You can't hum
Not While I'm Around?
Anyone Can Whistle?
Not A Day Goes By?
No One Is Alone?
Unworthy of your Love?
Everybody Loves Louis?
Move on?

AHHH! The list goes on and on!

It's ok to say that you don't like him, but please, he is in no way overrated. Why do critics love him, and why does his work continue to be produced over, and over, and over again? Becuase it is brilliant.
If you love the musical theatre, at least have respect for the man who changed musical theatre form into something that has weight, importance in the world, other than to just entertain, but to also teach, satirize, comment. He is, I think, and scholars agree, the master of the Musical Theatre form.

Which doesn't mean you have to like his music.
Go for Mamma Mia, and Spamalot, and Thoroughly Millie (which I love)... which all have their place, but if you respect the theatre, you have to respect, and at least acknowledge, if not applaud Sondheim's work, as a brilliant lyricist, and a writer of extremely gorgeous music, and most importantly for elevating musical theatre to not just a bunch of songs, with a story in between.

That's all, I'm done.

[Greekmusicalfan]

Posted: 10/4/05 at 11:43pm

I also agree jason! And I don't think that anyone denies that he is a very important and influencial composer. My problem is with people who are so fanatic that they think that everything else is crap. That's why I say that everyone is entitled to his opinion. I don't get him too, but I'd never attack his fans for loving him, while Sondheim fans constantly do that !
Updated On: 10/4/05 at 11:43 PM