Something that annoyed me about Miss Saigon...- Page 2

[StageManager2]

Posted: 6/16/12 at 3:58pm

but the moment he returns to Saigon, all of those feelings return.

He doesn't go back to Vietnam. They meet up again in Bangkok (Thailand), where Kim is a refugee.

[bwayphreak234]

Posted: 6/16/12 at 4:14pm

I just wish the original Sacred Bird ending was still used.

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 6/16/12 at 5:36pm

I was trying to remember if Chris kisses her on the lips. I just remember him holding her. But it has been several years since I've seen it onstage.

The chronology is that Chris loved Kim, lost Kim, was depressed and didn't speak to anyone for a year. Then he met Ellen and apparently was able to live again.

[BroadwayStar4]

Posted: 7/20/12 at 1:46am

The chronology is that Chris loved Kim, lost Kim, was depressed and didn't speak to anyone for a year. Then he met Ellen and apparently was able to live again.

Yeah, but in the production I saw, he kissed Kim on the lips. Does that mean that he loved her all along, or that he only did it for her sake?

[eatlasagna]

Posted: 7/20/12 at 2:08am

they used to not kiss... then it was added in several years into the run i think...

i get more annoyed at Chris' scream at the end... some actors just pulled it off really badly!

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 7/20/12 at 11:10am

It's probably up to the individual audience member to decide. My belief is that Chris loved Kim very deeply, and always will. Boubil and Schonberg are very clear that Chris loves Kim, that is one of the major differences that the show made from Madama Butterfly. I personally think when Chris tells Ellen that he only thought he loved Kim because she was the one good thing he found in Saigon, he was trying to convince himself as much as Ellen.

Not that he doesn't love Ellen, I just think that he loves Kim too, in a different "the one that got away" kind of sense.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 7/22/12 at 6:25pm

There are different kinds of love. I don't think kissing Kim proves that he doesn't love Ellen, or loves Kim more than Ellen. The only thing that annoys me in Miss Saigon, at least in the original, brilliant staging, is the heavy handed-ness and literal-ness of Bui Doi.

[nicnyc]

Posted: 7/23/12 at 3:48am

I agree about Chris trying to convince himself as much as Ellen - and I think the kiss goodbye is a beautiful ending to a tragic love story.

[Patash]

Posted: 7/23/12 at 9:03am

Broadwaystar4, I'm just curious. When that kiss happened did you let out cat calls, whistles, and loud "woo-hoos" along with the other junior high kids like they do at all kissing on stage?

It was a kiss, not full on sexual intercourse!

[Bettyboy72]

Posted: 7/23/12 at 10:10am

If I were Ellen I'd be a little more angry about the anal and bukakke Chris got from the "Me Ruv You Rong Time' bar. I'm pretty sure he wasn't using protection.

[greensgreens]

Posted: 7/23/12 at 11:17am

Does the staging/book specify where she shoots herself? The times I saw it, Kim ducked behind a curtain in her apartment so it was unclear where she shot herself exactly.

I love the maid business too, only because most of the population of Bangkok is probably Asian, so her true American/"Westerness" is displayed through her bizarre assumptions.

[iluvtheatertrash]

Posted: 7/23/12 at 11:46am

Ellen has already forgiven Kim by this point. And Chris. It was a different time in his life. In all our men's lives. And Ellen, whether she wants to or not, must reluctantly accept and forgive it. I fully believe that Ellen gives Kim's child a good home, and a good life.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 7/23/12 at 12:04pm

If Ellen is pissed that Chris kissed a woman he loved years ago in a foreign country at war where they were separated though no fault of their own, then he needs to dump that bitch and find someone with empathy and perspective. Especially after that big confession number where she decides to forgive him and support him.

But no, there is no indication that the character was written as a petty jealous Jerry Springer guest.

[adam.peterson44]

Posted: 7/23/12 at 1:45pm

I have stayed in hotels lots of times, and I would never expect anyone to be knocking on the door of my hotel rooms except for the housekeeping staff, so I don't see Ellen's assumption about Kim being the maid as being related to race at all, but rather as originating from the context in which they meet. What else is she supposed to assume? Jehovah's witness?

I haven't seen this in years and it is possible that I have forgotten some key story point that establishes that Ellen was expecting Kim to meet them at their hotel room, which I don't remember being the case, so please correct me if i have this wrong (i'm sure i won't need to ask twice :).

[greensgreens]

Posted: 7/23/12 at 2:22pm

Well, housekeeping and any person who may have gotten the wrong room number probably would knock on the door. Unless someone's wearing a housekeeping uniform, typically most people don't just assume they're the maid. So, I guess Ellen's just plain dumb when played that way. Personally, I like the idea of Ellen being a bit of an ugly American (not an ugly human being) - it makes the contrast between the moral, societal and familial structures more fascinating. Chris and John clearly can't exhibit these traits, so it's good they are imbued in Ellen.

The plot surrounding this moment is that Kim knows Chris is in Bangkok (via John in "Please"), but John is going to bring Chris to her and Tam. However, when she tells the Engineer, he says they are not to be trusted and procures the hotel room/address for her. Kim visits the hotel herself and meets Ellen alone, creating one of the more interesting moments of dramatic tension.

I have seen Ellen played in a number of ways, with varying results. She can be played as dull as a dishrag; an "ugly American" who means well but is still hampered by her pre-conceived notions of race and familial structures (my favorite); and just a raging b!tch who we have no sympathy for.

Now, it must also be recalled that Tam runs into the Engineer's arms as the curtain falls - not Ellen's or Chris'. Somewhere I read that this was intentional and those on here who automatically assume that Chris and Ellen will be taking the child to a glorious new life in the US may need to rethink that. What if Ellen and Chris support the child from the US, but the Engineer turns over a new leaf (or doesn't) and raises Tam. Or, what if the Engineer somehow makes it to the US under the guide of "Uncle Tran" and then abandons the child. Or maybe the kid does go with Ellen and Chris. But, it's not as simple an ending as many have made it out to be.

[ErinDillyFan]

Posted: 7/23/12 at 2:26pm

If anything Kim was the one who was cheated on. By the time this happens Ellen understands the full context and understands that she is "the other woman." There are all sorts of stories of lives and loves interrupted. Spouses given up for dead and lives go on only to be reunited. In those circumstances life gets complicated and and intelligent people can see complexity and work through it rationally, unlike the behavior in Tommy.

[JRybka]

Posted: 7/23/12 at 3:07pm

THIS IS THE SYNOPSIS FOR THOSE WHO NEED TO REMEMBER:


Act 1
In April 1975 at "Dreamland", a sleazy Vietnamese club, shortly before the Fall of Saigon, it is Kim's first day as a bargirl. The seventeen-year-old orphan is greeted by the Engineer, a French-Vietnamese man who owns the club. Backstage, the girls get ready for the night's show, jeering at Kim's naïveté ("Overture"). The U.S. Marines, aware that they will be leaving Vietnam soon, party with the Vietnamese prostitutes at the club ("The Heat Is On In Saigon"). Chris Scott, a sergeant disenchanted by the club scene, is encouraged by his friend John Thomas to go with a girl. The girls compete for the title of "Miss Saigon", and the winner is raffled to a Marine. Kim's innocence strikes Chris. Gigi Van Trahn wins the crown for the evening and begs the marine who won the raffle to take her back to America, annoying him. The showgirls reflect on their dreams of a better life ("Movie In My Mind"). John buys a room from the Engineer for the virgin Kim and Chris ("The Transaction"). Kim is reluctant and shy but dances with Chris. Chris tries to pay her to leave the nightclub. When the Engineer interferes, thinking that Chris does not like Kim, Chris allows himself to be led to her room ("The Dance").
Chris, watching Kim sleep, asks God why he met her just as he was about to leave Vietnam ("Why God Why?"). When Kim wakes up, Chris tries to give her money, but she refuses, saying that it is her first time sleeping with a man ("This Money's Yours"). Touched to learn that Kim is an orphan, Chris tells her that she need not sell herself at the club, because he wants her to stay with him. The two pledge their love for each other ("Sun and Moon"). Chris tells John that he is taking leave to spend time with Kim. John warns him that the Viet Cong will soon take Saigon, but then reluctantly agrees to cover for Chris ("The Telephone Song"). Chris meets with the Engineer to trade for Kim, but the Engineer tries to include an America visa in the deal. Chris forces the Engineer at gunpoint to honour the original arrangement for Kim ("The Deal").
The bargirls hold a "wedding ceremony" for Chris and Kim ("Dju Vui Vai"), with Gigi toasting Kim as the "real" Miss Saigon. Thuy, Kim's cousin, to whom she was betrothed at thirteen, arrives to take her home. He has become an officer in the North Vietnamese Army and is angered to find her with Chris ("Thuy's Arrival"). The two men confront each other, drawing their guns. Kim tells Thuy that their arranged marriage is now null because her parents are dead, and she no longer harbours any feelings for him because of his betrayal. Thuy curses them all and storms out ("What's This I Find"). Chris promises to take Kim with him when he leaves Vietnam. Chris and Kim dance to the same song as on their first night ("Last Night of The World").
Three years pass, and in Saigon (now renamed Ho Chi Minh City), a street parade is taking place to celebrate the third anniversary of the reunification of Vietnam and the defeat of the Americans ("Morning of The Dragon," also called "The Fall of Saigon"). Thuy, a commissar in the new government, has ordered his soldiers to find the still-corrupt Engineer. Thuy orders the Engineer to find Kim and bring her to him. Kim is still in love with Chris and has been hiding in an impoverished area believing that Chris will come back to Vietnam to rescue her. Meanwhile, Chris is in bed with his new American wife, Ellen, when he awakens from a dream shouting Kim's name. Ellen and Kim both swear their devotion to Chris from opposite ends of the world ("I Still Believe").
The Engineer finds Kim and brings Thuy to her. Kim refuses Thuy's renewed offer of marriage and introduces him to Tam, her three-year-old son fathered by Chris. Thuy calls Kim a traitor and Tam an enemy, and moves to kill Tam with a knife. Kim pulls out Chris's gun and kills Thuy ("You Will Not Touch Him"). Kim flees with Tam ("This Is The Hour") and tells the Engineer what she has done ("If You Want to Die in Bed"). The Engineer refuses to help her until he learns that Tam's father is American ("Let Me See His Western Nose") – thinking this is his passport to the United States. He tells Kim that now he is the boy's uncle, and he will lead them to Bangkok. The three set out on a ship with other refugees ("I'd Give My Life for You").
[edit]Act 2
In Atlanta, Georgia, John now works for an aide organisation whose mission is to connect Bui-Doi (children conceived during the war) with their American fathers ("Bui Doi"). John tells Chris that Kim is still alive, which Chris is relieved to hear after years of having nightmares of her dying. He also tells Chris about Tam and urges Chris to go to Bangkok with Ellen. Chris finally tells Ellen about Kim and Tam ("The Revelation"). In Bangkok, the Engineer is hawking a sleazy club where Kim works as a dancer ("What A Waste"). Chris, Ellen and John arrive in search of Kim. John finds Kim dancing at the club, and tells her that Chris is also in Bangkok. He then tries to tell her that Chris is remarried, but Kim interrupts. She is thrilled about the news and tells Tam that his father has arrived, believing that they are to go to America with Chris. Seeing Kim happy, John cannot bring himself to break the news to her, but promises to bring Chris to her ("Please").
The Engineer tells Kim to find Chris herself, because he doubts that Chris will come ("Chris Is Here"). Kim is haunted by the ghost of Thuy, who taunts Kim, claiming that Chris will betray her as he did the night Saigon fell. Kim suffers a horrible flashback to that night ("Kim's Nightmare").
As the Viet Cong approach and Saigon becomes increasingly chaotic, Chris is called to the embassy and leaves his gun with Kim, telling her to pack. When Chris enters the embassy, the gates close, as orders arrive from Washington for an immediate evacuation of the remaining Americans. The Ambassador orders that no more Vietnamese are allowed into the Embassy. Kim reaches the gates of the Embassy, one of a mob of terrified Vietnamese trying to get in. Chris calls to Kim and is about to go into the crowd to look for her, but John is eventually forced to punch Chris in the face to stop him from leaving. Chris is put into the last helicopter leaving Saigon as Kim watches from outside, still pledging her love to him ("The Fall of Saigon").
Back in 1978 Bangkok, Kim joyfully dresses in her wedding clothes ("Sun and Moon: Reprise") and leaves the Engineer to watch Tam while she is gone. She goes to Chris' hotel room, where she finds Ellen. Kim mistakenly thinks she is John's wife, but Ellen reveals that she is Chris' wife. Kim is heartbroken and refuses to believe Ellen. Ellen asks Kim if Chris really is the father of Tam, and Kim says he is. Kim says she does not want her son living on the streets like a rat, but Ellen tells Kim that they will do what they can to support him. Kim pleads to Ellen that they take Tam with them to America, but Ellen refuses, saying that Tam needs his real mother, and Ellen wants her own children with Chris. Kim angrily demands that Chris tell her these things in person, and runs out of the room ("Room 317"). Ellen feels badly for Kim, but is determined to keep Chris ("Her or Me"/"Now That I've Seen Her"). Chris and John return, having failed to find Kim. Ellen tells them both that Kim arrived just now and that she was the one who had to tell Kim everything. Chris and John blame themselves, realizing they were gone too long. Ellen also tells them that Kim wants to see Chris at her place, and that she tried to give away her son to them. John realizes Kim wants Tam to be "an American boy." Ellen then issues an ultimatum to Chris: Kim or her. Chris reassures Ellen, and they pledge their love for each other. Chris will leave Tam and Kim in Bangkok but offer them monetary support from America. John warns that Kim will not find it acceptable to have Tam stay in Thailand ("The Confrontation"). Back at the club, Kim lies to the Engineer that they are still going to America ("Paper Dragons"). The Engineer imagines the extravagant new life he will lead in America ("The American Dream"). Chris, John and Ellen find the Engineer and he takes them to see Kim and Tam.
In her room, Kim tells Tam that he should be happy because he now has a father. She tells him that she cannot go with him but will be watching over him ("The Sacred Bird"/"Little God Of My Heart"/"This Is The Hour (reprise)"). Chris, Ellen, John, and the Engineer arrive just outside her room. The Engineer comes in to take Tam outside to introduce Tam to his father. While this is happening, Kim steps behind a curtain and shoots herself. As she falls to the floor, everyone rushes into the room at the sound of the gunshot and find Kim mortally wounded. Chris holds Kim in his arms and asks what she has done and why she did this, as she explains that the gods have guided him to his son. Chris begs her not to die, as she asks him to hold her one last time. After sharing one final kiss, Kim says her final words to Chris, echoing what he said to her from the song "Sun and Moon" ("How in one night have we come so far?") and she dies in his arms ("Finale").

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 7/23/12 at 3:41pm

I think I must have stayed in shoddy hotels--twice I've had housekeeping walk in on me changing (actually both time it was in San Francisco... hrmm).

I've also always found Ellen actually pretty sympathetic. It helps that I never saw a production back when she still sang It's Her or Me (talk about a drama bitch), but...