Sondheim's book is kind of bombastic. . .- Page 3

[chekkyjr]

Posted: 12/27/10 at 1:07am

PRS, I can only *hope* he hated RENT - what thinking man or woman or FTM or MTF for that matter would not? - but he is on record as having said nice things about Jonathan Larson, whom he apparently mentored.

RENT is an *awful* show, is it not?

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 12/27/10 at 1:19am

Well, I have a lot of convoluted feelings about ReNt. I was basically the generation it was speaking to when it first opened, and there were/are a lot of things to like about it. When I'm feeling most generous, I say that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. When I'm feeling more bitchy, I like to rip it apart for the hot mess that it is And the movie just makes me ill.

But that line about the condos is one of Larson's most egregious.

[Ourtime992]

Posted: 12/27/10 at 1:31am

Given the tinkering Sondheim was able to do on his shows, as documented in the book, I have to assume Larson would have done the same, had he lived to do so. Rent is full of sloppy lyrics like that, and I find myself easily distracted when I listen to individual songs, yet as a whole I find it moving.

Back on the original subject, I got the book for Christmas and finished it tonight. I thought it was riveting. I didn't find his criticism of other writers to be bombastic or even condescending. He backs up each critique with very specific examples, and I think he's clear that he's giving his own opinions. He's certainly as hard on himself as he is on any of them, which buffers what would otherwise be cold, academic analysis.

My only complain is that, because he only tackles the work of now-deceased luminaries, I'm less interested than if he were to comment on more recent writers whose work interests me more. I just couldn't sink my teeth into the essays on Lorenz Hart, etc. Not that I want him to tear into Jonathan Larson or David Yazbek or anything, but an analysis of Stephen Schwartz or Tim Rice would be fascinating. Then again, I can probably guess what he'd have to say about each of them.
Updated On: 12/27/10 at 01:31 AM

[chekkyjr]

Posted: 12/27/10 at 1:32am

Ugh, PRS, RENT is a tissue of lies!

Okay, whatever, so it's a *musical*, for god's sake, it's not supposed to have anything to do with the real world, and aren't we all sick of people who say, "Well, *I* was *there*, and I must tell you that they got it *all wrong*," so I will try not to say that! Because of course I was there - East Village, 1980s/90s - and they got it all. . . Oh, hell. The point is, even the fake world that RENT invents is, you know, really fake! It's a fake faker! I admit I like some of the music.

Sondheim said somewhere that he thought Larson "had the right idea," though what that idea was, exactly, I am not sure I/he could say.

[ClapYo'Hands]

Posted: 12/27/10 at 8:54am

"RENT is an *awful* show, is it not?"

This is a Broadway board. There are obviously many people on here who do not think so.
Updated On: 12/27/10 at 08:54 AM

[PalJoey]

Posted: 12/27/10 at 9:11am

Ourtime: Go back and read the Lorenz Hart essay--and the Ira Gershwin essay--and you'll know more of lyric-writing than you could learn in year of classes.

Sondheim never said anything negative about Rent.

[chekkyjr]

Posted: 12/27/10 at 9:24am

I should clarify, I should clarify: I don't have any problem with stuff SS says about other songwriters. Flame away, SS, if it suits you, I say. And of course he's generous and admiring as much as he is sometimes sweeping and dismissive. And he admits that MY FAIRY LADY is the most entertaining musical he has ever seen, though what exactly he means by "entertaining. . ." And I think of the lyric in MERRILY: "I saw MY FAIR LADY. I sort of enjoyed it." That says everything you'd ever want to know about how SS feels about MFL.

I love all his comments on other people's lyrics and musicals.

Oh, I don't know what I was saying. "Bombastic" is the wrong word. Something about the way the book was edited was bugging me the other day, but I should shut the **** up, because I read maybe 10 pages, and what do I know? And who am I?

I am a bubble on the tide of empire.

Certainly, compared to SJS, I am less than zero.

Forgive me, SJS!

[PalJoey]

Posted: 12/27/10 at 9:28am

You do go on, don't you?

[chekkyjr]

Posted: 12/27/10 at 9:39am

But here is exactly what was bugging me, and I quote from the thread about Sondheim using the word "fag." Quoted below is what SS says in his BOOK OF ME, about the word "fag" showing up in the original "You Could Drive a Person Crazy":

"In 1970, the word 'fag' was only faintly demeaning, perfectly appropriate for the girls' annoyance without being offensive to the audience. By 1995, when the show was first revived on Broadway, it sounded not only offensive but old-fashioned, so I changed it."

Okay, so what the hell is he talking about? In 1970, the word "fag" was as demeaning as it ever was, which is to say, extremely. I should know! I was there! (I am quoting myself, from a few posts back, in a tone that is part earnest/part ironic. Keep up!)

And of course the girls - and he calls them "girls," doesn't he? Without any qualms! He tosses out words like "girls" and "Indians" without any apparent awareness of, or in any case without any worry about, the political implications of certain kinds of terminology. His writing reflects his insulated/isolated show-bizzy, bucolic Pennsylvania, privileged Upper West Side, Kip's Bay-living-next-door-to-Miss-Hepburn-ing, and summering-in-Connecticut world.

I was saying:

It's true that the type of people who show up in COMPANY would have said "fag" in 1970 in a very throwaway manner, as if they meant no real harm by it. They were mindlessly homophobic.

But they were of course homophobic.

And if the word "fag" was only "mildly demeaning," how come Sondheim waited decades to acknowledge publicly that he was a homo? I mean if being called a fag is no big deal, then what kept him and his musicals aggressively closeted? Clearly, he grew up understanding instinctively that to be a fag was in fact to be demeaned, and he is being not-entirely-honest with himself or anyone else about his feelings about "fag" - fag-the-word and fag-the-derided-individual - in 1970.

[esparza 333]

Posted: 12/27/10 at 10:32am

I find it refreshing that Sondheim knows so clearly what he wants and understands the craft so much. Sure he is hard on people but he provides analysis and tells us why. Plus knowing what he likes and what he doesn't like is a sign of a true artist. He shows he would never risk hurting people's feeling and analyzes there work and really puts thought into every word. His passages on Noel Coward, Ira Gershwin and Dorothy Fields were particularly interesting. And to hear him talking about working with so many luminaries and putting together his shows is really exciting. And while his language is complex and his sentences are too, I expected nothing less from a man like him. I felt like he gave us a glimpse of how his mind works and to hear the way he deconstructs phrases and how he uses his three principles shows us what an obsessive genius he is. He puts so much effort into every work rhyme and breathe and that is why he is Sondheim. To all broadway fans, this book is a must. He analyzes his craft and gives us a glimpses into the inceptions of many of his shows. A riveting read!!

[ClapYo'Hands]

Posted: 12/27/10 at 11:56am

"I was there [1970]!"

Really? Because you sound like a ten year old...

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 12/27/10 at 12:29pm

I would never presume I know what Sondheim thinks, but since the lyrics in ReNt are rife with what he considers lyrical sins, I would venture to guess he must take some issue with it.

[chekkyjr]

Posted: 12/27/10 at 1:49pm

ClapYoHands! Do you need to be held? You can just ask! I am holding you in my imagination. I'm sorry for your miserable childhood. I'm sorry you voted Republican! Just keep breathing. Everything will be all right. . .

[chekkyjr]

Posted: 12/27/10 at 2:07pm

PalJoey! Yes, indeed! I go on and on and on and on and on, like the Energizer Bunny. As for you! You do go off, don't you?

[ClapYo'Hands]

Posted: 12/27/10 at 2:36pm

What is wrong with you!? Seriously...

[chekkyjr]

Posted: 12/27/10 at 3:54pm

ClapYoHands, I am suffering from the anomie and malaise of the modern condition!

What's wrong with you?

[hottieho13]

Posted: 12/27/10 at 4:00pm

i really have to get this book! SS was a total babe back in the day(still charmingly cute now!!)And While Rent may have it's pitfalls I love ,love.love the show!at least it's not spider-man bad.

[chekkyjr]

Posted: 12/27/10 at 4:32pm

Yes, let's all get the book, and read it all night!

I admit that I listened to the RENT cast album over and over for about a month, recently. I still think it has sloppy lyrics and a reprehensible book, but, whatever, you can hum the damned thing, can't you?

[chekkyjr]

Posted: 12/27/10 at 5:47pm

Where'd everybody go?

[hottieho13]

Posted: 12/27/10 at 5:56pm

i like to think had Larson lived ,maybe he would have done rewrites, and re did some things differently as well.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 12/27/10 at 5:59pm

Is the name Mary_Ethel coming to mind for anybody else?

[hottieho13]

Posted: 12/27/10 at 6:01pm

"Is the name Mary_Ethel coming to mind for anybody else?"

Who Dat?

[chekkyjr]

Posted: 12/27/10 at 6:34pm

Whatta you mean, "Mary Ethel?" Is that a reference to one of the worst songs in one of the worst musicals, the name dropping number from BELLS ARE RINGING? Or what?

[chekkyjr]

Posted: 12/27/10 at 6:35pm

Whatta you mean, "Mary Ethel?" Is that a reference to one of the worst songs in one of the worst musicals, the name dropping number from BELLS ARE RINGING? Or what?

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 12/27/10 at 7:06pm

PRS, I can only *hope* he hated RENT - what thinking man or woman or FTM or MTF for that matter would not? - but he is on record as having said nice things about Jonathan Larson, whom he apparently mentored.

RENT is an *awful* show, is it not?

Sondheim actually attended many of the Rent workshops and gave Jonathan Larson feedback on them. Larson's notes from their discussion are among his collection at the Library of Congress. So "hate" is unlikely.

From what I've gathered from both sides, Sondheim appreciated the potential in Larson as the next generation of musical theatre composer, and encouraged his development. He probably thought Rent would be like West Side Story is for him- that one day, Larson too would cringe over the missteps and song writing naivete, and jump at the chance to translate it into another language, but it's his mistake to make and learn from.