Sondheim's book is kind of bombastic. . .- Page 5

[alawhat]

Posted: 12/29/10 at 6:05pm

"I wish I had gotten here in time to respond appropriately with, "Think twice before you poo poo it," but alas, I am too late."

RENT has moments that leave me borderline on slitting my wrists. This ties with the 'bananas by the bunch' section.

And Mimi coming back to life.

[chekkyjr]

Posted: 12/29/10 at 10:58pm

alawhat! I *hated* Mimi coming back to life!

Do you think Sondheim thought of RENT as Jonathan Larson's SATURDAY NIGHT? Awful to think of what Larson might've done with material like A LITTLE NIGHT MUSIC - stripped down and obvious, with Madame Armfeldt as a very wise drag queen. Except: Wait! I think I just described the current *Bway* production of ALNM!

[esparza 333]

Posted: 12/29/10 at 11:23pm

"And I think it's very poor form to cricticize other lyricists' works, especially when they are superior to him. It lacks class and reflects poorly upon him as a person.

And one more thing. If you're going to nitpick through scores of other lyricists' works, then you had better be perfect yourself. Because "liaisons" doesn't rhyme with "raisins," no matter how much you try to fudge the pronunciation. "

After Eight, I do not think it reflects poorly on him at all. Sondheim is not being blatantly rude and in the book he analyzes and lists both positives and negatives. You can tell he has tremendous respect for the people he writes about. However, he being a dedicated and obsessive artist he uses his experience and knowledge to give us insight into some of the imperfections of these masters. He states that these are merely his opinions but you have to respect the technicality he speaks with and how he doesn't just come out and criticize but gives specific examples and also lists their positives. And he does comment on his lyric's flaws too. In fact, I would say most of the criticism in the book is of his own work. You can't get to his level and not be obsessive and think in complex ways about your own art. He has an ongoing relationship with his works working to improve them and you got to respect him when he lists his mistakes too. And the fact that he is critical is also refreshing, he has standards that are high and while he would never just attack a lyricist he will have small criticisms and I respect him for having his own opinions that are clear.

[chekkyjr]

Posted: 12/30/10 at 12:09am

Yeah, good for Stevie for giving us the gift of his insights into writing musicals.

But don't you find his book aggressively apolitical?

I guess that's what I mean by "bombastic," in my subject heading: That he dismisses out of hand any considerations of political life in or around or leading up to or as a consequence of his work.

[After Eight]

Posted: 12/30/10 at 8:29am

"And the fact that he is critical is also refreshing, he has standards that are high and while he would never just attack a lyricist he will have small criticisms and I respect him for having his own opinions that are clear."


Esparza:

I respect your point of view, but I don't share it. Being an obsessive artist in no way excuses a lack of grace and class. And I don't admire or respect that.





Updated On: 12/30/10 at 08:29 AM

[raker]

Posted: 12/30/10 at 8:38am

I'm loving the book, contradictions and all. Sondheim wrote in the early chapters about Arthur Laurents's insights into the value of subtext, and now I'm reading about "We're Gonna Be All Right." To me, that song is all subtext, but Sondheim is contemptuous of this final sunny-on-the-surface version, preferring the first version that was overtly cynical.

[chekkyjr]

Posted: 12/30/10 at 11:18am

raker, what's the "final sunny-on-the-surface" version? The only version of the song I know is on *Side by Side by Sondheim*, which is neither cynical nor sunny-on-the-surface. Actually, I've never liked that cast album, which I value only because it has a couple songs on it that I don't have anywhere else.

[raker]

Posted: 12/30/10 at 2:34pm

Sondheim tells of having originally written a different lyric (it's in the book), but Rodgers found it offensive and so Sondheim wrote the version we know from the cast album. In the original version the couple is pretty frank about wondering if it will be birds in Spring or hara-kiri, so to speak. When I listen to the cast album version in which the characters sing of how nothing will keep them down, I think "these people are doomed." I think the rejected darker version is, paradoxically, more hopeful.

[esparza 333]

Posted: 12/30/10 at 3:36pm

"Esparza:

I respect your point of view, but I don't share it. Being an obsessive artist in no way excuses a lack of grace and crass. And I don't admire or respect that.


Read more: https://forum.broadwayworld.com/readmessage.php?page=5&thread=1026033&boardid=1#ixzz19d4cO4Fa"

I too respect your opinion but from what I have read in the book thus far (I am on the Follies chapter) all of his criticism have been carefully worded and no more offensive then that of a respectable critic. He doesn't pan or attack.

[chekkyjr]

Posted: 12/30/10 at 6:51pm

esparza! Your link sent me to, um: your link! Did I do something wrong? I wish Sondheim would say what he really thinks about Andrew Lloyd Weber. And Bill Finn! And Jonathan Larson. And Duncan Sheik! And so forth. Maybe he'll drink some potent truth serum before he writes the next book. Fingers crossed!

[ClapYo'Hands]

Posted: 12/30/10 at 8:14pm

Well, if Andrew Lloyd Webber dies before Stephen Sondheim (unlikely though it is) then Sondheim is likely to say what he thinks about him.

[broadwaybabytn]

Posted: 12/30/10 at 8:35pm

oh gosh! that could be as awful as patti lupone on glen close!

anyways... his book was good. not great... but good, and amusing.
my broadway blog

[chekkyjr]

Posted: 12/30/10 at 9:19pm

Sondheim and Webber have the same birthday, don't they? I guess I knew that. 22 March. Sondheim is an Aries - optimistic, impetuous, the sex is all about *him* - with his moon in Capricorn - cold, cold, cold - and Aquarius rising: spacey! Friendly. Odd. Conceptual. Idealistic! Holds everyone else to impossibly high standards that he himself can't quite reach. Mars and Mercury in Pisces, Venus in Aries. He's a bossy bottom!

Webber, on the other hand, has his sun in Aries with moon in Leo and Leo rising: a much more single-minded chart, animated almost entirely by a big need to be worshipped. He has a bunch of planets in his 12th house, which means he should be in jail. His sun's in his 8th house, like John Lennon, JFK, and Teddy Roosevelt: his rule will be cut short! He will leave behind mourners with important hair - John: Yoko; JFK: Jackie; Teddy: all those lions.

Stevie's chart is way more fun that Sir Andrew's, but only one of them really enjoys being wanted. . .

[After Eight]

Posted: 12/30/10 at 10:18pm

"I too respect your opinion but from what I have read in the book thus far (I am on the Follies chapter) all of his criticism have been carefully worded and no more offensive then that of a respectable critic. He doesn't pan or attack."


But he's not a critic, respectable or otherwise, he's an artist. And to me the problem is not the merit of his critiques, or the wording thereof, it's his feeling the need to point out flaws (at least as he perceives them) in other artists' works. How many other fellow composer/or lyricists have felt a similar need, or acted upon it? It's unseemly and, to me, petty and shoddy.

[Pan_Am_L-1011]

Posted: 12/30/10 at 11:54pm

I enjoy Sondheim. I think Sweeney Todd is the greatest musical ever written. But, he has never had a commercial success like Rent or several ALW shows, so the argument is moot. Furthermore, I think it's cowardly to trash this who are dead yet shy away from those who are living. I've certainly lost respect for Somdheim.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 12/31/10 at 12:13am

Like any of us gives a flying**** who you respect.

This thread is like a pile of excrement dropped into BroadwayWorld that keeps erupting with maggots.

I hate that this thread lives while--oh F*CK never mind.

You're not worth the breath. If you could hear yourself, you'd hate yourself. Even more than you obviously do.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 12/31/10 at 12:17am

SRSLY.

[wonderwaiter]

Posted: 12/31/10 at 12:29am

Apparently just mentioning "audience member at Spider-Man got kicked in the head" gets entire other threads deleted.



/I'm just sayin'.
//An audience member got kicked in the head you know.
///Holocaust!
//// what's an inro?

Updated On: 12/31/10 at 12:29 AM

[chekkyjr]

Posted: 12/31/10 at 12:50am

Sondheim should say whatever he likes, whatever if ever he likes, says I.

Some of youse lose respect easy.

I plan to buy the book tomorrow afternoon and spend New Year's Eve between Sondheim's covers. Expect a full report!

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 12/31/10 at 1:17am

Let's not and say we did.

[chekkyjr]

Posted: 12/31/10 at 1:41am

A question:

What kind of cultural influence do you think Sondheim has really had? Because it occurred to me watching him on Stephen Colbert that Sondheim has gotten more publicity over the past year - his yearlong b'day celebration, sponsored by the NYTIMES - than in any single year of his life. I mean, I'm guessing that's true. And I bet there were plenty of people watching Colbert who'd never heard of Sondheim - certainly never seen the guy. Doesn't Colbert get the "men between 19 and 40" crowd? Maybe they'd heard "Send in the Clowns," or maybe they knew Johnny Depp was in SWEENEY TODD, but:

Sondheim's a great artist, and he has certainly influenced musical theater, but has his influence travelled beyond Bway? I mean his artistic influence, and his cultural influence. Has his art affected the work of artists in allied fields, the way, say, abstract expressionist painting clearly influenced US poetry in the '50s & '60s, or the way neo-realist Italian films influenced playwrights like Paddy Chayevsky. . .

Have Sondheim's musicals had an impact outside the realm of Bway theater?

I am certainly aware of how his work has affected my life - COMPANY showed up in my reality when I was 11, and the complicated emotionality of that show, the approach-avoidance sorry/grateful dynamic that it highlights so painfully; and the notion of the-reaching-of-maturity having to do with a particular relationship to and understanding of intimacy - the sort of group therapy aspect of COMPANY - helped shape my expectations of adulthood.

Okay, I just admitted that my personality is based on a musical!

Mock me, if you must.

My personality is *also* based on Marilyn Monroe's performance in THE MISFITS, if you want further ammunition, you mockers.

[jasonf]

Posted: 1/18/11 at 11:29am

I'm bumping this because I finally got the book and have a question. Anyone know why Evening Primrose isn't included in the lyrics of the book? He DID write EP in the timeframe included...

Maybe it's mentioned somewhere, but I haven't seen it yet...

[Brick]

Posted: 1/18/11 at 12:02pm

It is believed that film and television efforts will be in the second book, after all the stage projects.

[jasonf]

Posted: 1/18/11 at 12:20pm

That makes sense, since I can only think of five shows (Sunday, Into the Woods, Assassins, Passion and Bounce/Road Show/Wise Guys) that are left of his stage shows...

[hottieho13]

Posted: 1/18/11 at 12:39pm

How is this thread still alive?