The Adam Guettel Argument — Page 2

I think Ah's in Guettel's music is very appropriate. Especially in "Say it Somehow" it's almost like there weren't words to express how they were feeling at that moment. There are so many Opera and Oratorio Arias that incorperate "Ah" on melismatic passages which people find acceptable.

"Which explains the 9th Symphony, the Missa Solemnis and, of course, FIDELIO."

Right, it does include those. Professional orchestras and choruses probably do them regularly, but for your "everday" chorus, the extensive high notes in the tenor of the ninth symphony make it practically impossible for anything less than a professional company to perform it. (this example is given because I am a tenor). I am not a professional, and I can sing extensive high notes and be fine, but usually one or two tenors in a section of fifteen or twenty are not going to cut it. the 9th symphony is brilliant, don't get me wrong.

"He doesn't "help" you, like Sondheim does."

Ha HA! perhaps you are thinking "Forum" Sondheim, not "Sweeney" Sondheim.

Sondheim and Guettel are writing for the voice more like it is a member of the orchestra. Explanation: with Rodgers, the melody the voice is singing 9 times out of ten is found in this instrument or that and fits well in conventional chords, while Guettal writes for the voice so that if the voice is missing, that notes is probably missing then, which is a very challenging way to write. It's like the difference in a tenor singing in a chorus with ten other tenors singing the same part and a tenor singing in a quartet where he is the only one singing his part.

"Composers put down lyric lines, but then when actually put into a performance might be hard for a singer to actually sing. Like they might not provide breaks for breathing, etc. so therefore the actor must fit a bunch of words into a certain line in order to breath, etc. I'm not saying its done all the time, but it's done. I mean get a piece of sheet music and then listen a cast recording and you'll see that the notes don't line up exactly as they do on the page."


Are you talking about backphrasing? I don't mean to be difficult but I honestly don't know what you mean. Just because notes don't line up on the page doesn't make it the composer's fault. Most of the time the actor sings something based on the dramatic demands, not musical demands. And I've never found anything of Guettel's like this at all. I mean if actor's can sing Franklin Shepard Inc. or Not Getting Married without loosing the lyrics, then I don't see the issue.

Coming into this a bit late but...
You think Hero and Leander is difficult vocally? That's funny, because it's the first song of his I learned. I found it fit my voice perfectly. Then again, I sing in Adam's normal octave as well. Most composers (or at least many I know) tend to write in a specific area of the voice and being a different vocal type can be hard.

As for your teacher:
"Also - not that this really means much - but my voice teacher got his degree at Juliard and sings a couple opears a year, so I would think he knows what he's talking about. He also doesn't like how Guettel makes the characters sing on "Ah" a lot during Piazza. He thought it was a cop-out. But again, just his opinion. I for one love Piazza.

you're right that a degree from a school and singing a few times a year doesn't mean much, much less that he'd know what he's talking about. Given your further explanation here, it sounds as if what he's really saying is he just doesn't like Guettel's music. And you know what? That's perfectly fine. Who says you have to love it? Still, I completely disagree with his assessment that it's unsingable.

Up until then the only musical theatre composer whose works they thought were challenging enough to merit us occasionally singing them at recitals was Sondheim.

Most of them sing songs from operas or art songs, so it's hard for them to take me seriously as a vocalist. But they still let me sing whatever I want usually.

That is very depressing. And its also one of the things that really annoys me about Musical Theatre's place in today's world. I don't mind the lack of popularity in the pop world, but I do wish the intellectuals in america would give stand up and give musical theatre a little credit.

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It's funny I have yet to hear whoever this poster is say one positive thing or 1 thing he/she/it actually likes...Why are you here Enchanted?

I think there's a certain quality in Adam Guettel's music, a kind of yearning like there is in his granddaddy's music that a person is able to clearly identify in everything the guy writes. I just think Rodgers was less esoteric. Guettel's discussed this at length in interviews. Hence why songs like How Glory Goes (I agree that it's in a weird place vocally, for me at least) reach farther than you expect them to. There are specific compositional things he does to be found in all of his scores (Mostly in the way he excites and agitates the music), but that's just the mark of the composer. Like Bernstein and his tritones, Sondheim/Kander & Ebb and their vamping.

I think what sets Adam Guettel apart from his grandfather, and also why people might find him tedious or unmelodic (although his usually songs have clear melodies) is that there is suspense in his music, both in the harmony and because just when you think you've finally got the hang of this song it goes and does something different. I think people find it weird how he doesn't resolve typically, but rather to a completely different place. I just can't agree that Guettel's music doesn't sound fresh. I think his music always sounds spontaneous and alive and at the end the sense of inevitability is there. Bernstein is much the same, his music just screams vibrancy and there's a wonderful suspense when appropriate. Guettel's songs do more to give the singer a journey rather than "Sing the same thing three times but get louder each time." I think this is also why his finales play so well. You're in suspense the whole show about exactly where the music is going, and then in the finale you find out. I think it's sort of awesome. There's an actual score rather than just song placement.

As for the relative appropriateness of his music for a singer -- if you don't like it or don't feel up to the task, just don't sing the song. Many other people have sung Guettel's songs to great effect. I suppose you'll just have to leave it to them.

P.S. I think Saturn Returns is a different kind of show from his other shows. I feel like it was always meant to be an album and the fact that the songs reflect his voice and his intentions so specifically is appropriate. He was writing for himself.

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Wow! I TOTALLY agree with the OP. Honestly, my mom LOVES Guettel, but I heard Piazza a year ago and turned to her and said "This is Floyd Collins in Italian". I would like to hear his other work before I give up on his ability as a composer (can't wait for Princess Bride!) just because Floyd Collins was completely forgotten except a few songs (namely "How Glory Goes") and maybe he figured he could put the same sounds into a show that it would work better with.

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I would say Guettel is a difficult composer to sing mostly because he uses atypical intervals, chord progessions and time signatures. Yes, you may have to be a very good musician to sing it, but that's life.

And the style thing is interesting. Guettel definitely has his "Guettelisms" just like Sondheim does, just like Rodgers does, just like Kander does, just like EVERYONE does. It doesn't make his music less dramatic of affecting, though. I think he does an incredible job adapting to whatever style he's writing to. The range of his theatrical voice as a composer is astounding.

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Sorry, I don't really know the difference between compositional style and using the same device. I do know that Floyd Collins and Piazza sound the same. I know a lot of composers use similar styles in their writing, because you can hear it in their work. But the best composers can write different shows and make each one unique enough to stand out from the others. Sondheim was great at this with his past works and Schwartz with Wicked (but listen to Pippin and Godspell and you can distinctly hear similarities). But when I can't listen to "The Beauty Is" without thinking of "The Carnival"... sure, they are different, but not enough so imho.

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It's funny you put Sondheim as sounding so vastly different. Guettel didn't do that? That's why I said I think it's a developed ear issue rather than sounding the same. I don't see how The Beauty Is sounds too much like the Carnival. And I'm not sure what you mean by cheaper Floyd Collins. I think you're talking about compositional style. It also seems that you had issues because you're expectations weren't met.

"Composers put down lyric lines, but then when actually put into a performance might be hard for a singer to actually sing. Like they might not provide breaks for breathing, etc. so therefore the actor must fit a bunch of words into a certain line in order to breath, etc. I'm not saying its done all the time, but it's done."

Okay, can I just say that this is a ridiculous argument? Just because a song is technically too difficult for you does NOT mean that it's bad or poorly written. It means that you have to work in order to sound good, which is generally a more rewarding process in the long run than trying to belt "Defying Gravity" at the top of your lungs.

What did Piazza do?

And do you really think composers are worrying if every single amateur performer can sing their songs. Yeah, I can just see Mozart and Shickaneder arguing about the Ahs in "Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen."

"I told ya once if I told ya a million times, it's too damn much!"