The Adam Guettel Argument- Page 2

[RentBoy86]

Posted: 11/7/06 at 12:35pm

I've never tried to sing Sondheim, but it doesn't seem as difficult to learn/sing as Guettell. But I don't know. I'm too young to sing Sondheim - that seems to be the consensus around here anyways.

[LuPonatic]

Posted: 11/7/06 at 12:46pm

I think Ah's in Guettel's music is very appropriate. Especially in "Say it Somehow" it's almost like there weren't words to express how they were feeling at that moment. There are so many Opera and Oratorio Arias that incorperate "Ah" on melismatic passages which people find acceptable.

"Which explains the 9th Symphony, the Missa Solemnis and, of course, FIDELIO."

Right, it does include those. Professional orchestras and choruses probably do them regularly, but for your "everday" chorus, the extensive high notes in the tenor of the ninth symphony make it practically impossible for anything less than a professional company to perform it. (this example is given because I am a tenor). I am not a professional, and I can sing extensive high notes and be fine, but usually one or two tenors in a section of fifteen or twenty are not going to cut it. the 9th symphony is brilliant, don't get me wrong.

"He doesn't "help" you, like Sondheim does."

Ha HA! perhaps you are thinking "Forum" Sondheim, not "Sweeney" Sondheim.

Sondheim and Guettel are writing for the voice more like it is a member of the orchestra. Explanation: with Rodgers, the melody the voice is singing 9 times out of ten is found in this instrument or that and fits well in conventional chords, while Guettal writes for the voice so that if the voice is missing, that notes is probably missing then, which is a very challenging way to write. It's like the difference in a tenor singing in a chorus with ten other tenors singing the same part and a tenor singing in a quartet where he is the only one singing his part.

[RentBoy86]

Posted: 11/7/06 at 1:20pm

In "Say it Somehow" i think it's justified, but in "Statues and Stories" it comes off as a bit Disney. It reminded me of the opening of Beauty and the Beast.

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 11/7/06 at 1:44pm

"Composers put down lyric lines, but then when actually put into a performance might be hard for a singer to actually sing. Like they might not provide breaks for breathing, etc. so therefore the actor must fit a bunch of words into a certain line in order to breath, etc. I'm not saying its done all the time, but it's done. I mean get a piece of sheet music and then listen a cast recording and you'll see that the notes don't line up exactly as they do on the page."


Are you talking about backphrasing? I don't mean to be difficult but I honestly don't know what you mean. Just because notes don't line up on the page doesn't make it the composer's fault. Most of the time the actor sings something based on the dramatic demands, not musical demands. And I've never found anything of Guettel's like this at all. I mean if actor's can sing Franklin Shepard Inc. or Not Getting Married without loosing the lyrics, then I don't see the issue.

[Ourtime992]

Posted: 11/7/06 at 2:39pm

>>I see what you mean. A lot of the melismatic or "Ah" sections in Guettel's music do sound very improvisatory -- and due to the complicated nature of the music it is very hard to do any "altering" to the vocal line.

One of the difficulties here is that Guettel actually dictates that some lines are to be improvised vocalise (The "ah" passage in "Hero and Leander" comes to mind). The difficulty arises from the fact that the accompaniment is moving all over the place itself, so it becomes tricky to improvise something that fits as well as what you hear Guettel himself perform on the Myths and Hymns recording.

To address the second issue which Jazzysuite mentioned ("Most of the time the actor sings something based on the dramatic demands, not musical demands."), Guettel's music is written with a fair amount of precision, so if you try to sound overly dramatic by putting a pause in somewhere, you can really screw yourself up. I don't see much in the music itself, however, that would require you to alter the vocal line.

[bwaysinger]

Posted: 11/7/06 at 3:18pm

Coming into this a bit late but...
You think Hero and Leander is difficult vocally? That's funny, because it's the first song of his I learned. I found it fit my voice perfectly. Then again, I sing in Adam's normal octave as well. Most composers (or at least many I know) tend to write in a specific area of the voice and being a different vocal type can be hard.

As for your teacher:
"Also - not that this really means much - but my voice teacher got his degree at Juliard and sings a couple opears a year, so I would think he knows what he's talking about. He also doesn't like how Guettel makes the characters sing on "Ah" a lot during Piazza. He thought it was a cop-out. But again, just his opinion. I for one love Piazza.

you're right that a degree from a school and singing a few times a year doesn't mean much, much less that he'd know what he's talking about. Given your further explanation here, it sounds as if what he's really saying is he just doesn't like Guettel's music. And you know what? That's perfectly fine. Who says you have to love it? Still, I completely disagree with his assessment that it's unsingable.

[RentBoy86]

Posted: 11/10/06 at 12:33am

Yeah, I sort of explained to him the significance of "How Glory Goes" in the show and he seemed to like it a bit more. Who knows.

And it's true. I don't have Guettel's voice. My voice sounds like Gavin Creels. It's got a pop quality to it, but its not as, um, free? as Guettel's.

I'm excited to see what he does with Princess Bride. I can't see that show using his normal tendencies, but we'll see.

[Julian2]

Posted: 11/10/06 at 1:08am

Up until then the only musical theatre composer whose works they thought were challenging enough to merit us occasionally singing them at recitals was Sondheim.

Most of them sing songs from operas or art songs, so it's hard for them to take me seriously as a vocalist. But they still let me sing whatever I want usually.

That is very depressing. And its also one of the things that really annoys me about Musical Theatre's place in today's world. I don't mind the lack of popularity in the pop world, but I do wish the intellectuals in america would give stand up and give musical theatre a little credit.

[TheEnchantedHunter]

Posted: 11/10/06 at 1:50am

I hope you appreciate your voice teacher, rentboy, because he nailed it right on the head. And, judging from your response, I suspect you know it's truth as well.



Considering the wealth of material available to the performer, forget about the pretentious, torturous stuff and concentrate on the true craftsmen who knew how to communicate directly through words and music.




Gigi
2nd Arrondissement, Paris




Updated On: 4/29/08 at 01:50 AM

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 11/10/06 at 8:03am

It's funny I have yet to hear whoever this poster is say one positive thing or 1 thing he/she/it actually likes...Why are you here Enchanted?

[americanboy99]

Posted: 11/10/06 at 9:09am

I have friends, girls of course, who have tried to sing the title song from "THE LIGHT..." and they have said it is one of the hardest songs to sing ever. I may have to agree a bit, even though I am OBSESSED with THE LIGHT IN THE PIAZZA. But I do remember reading in a review that O'Hara had trouble deciding what voice to sing some notes because of the huge jumps in music. Now, why was that necessary? Not that they neeeded to dumb it down, but I did notice some just a little awkward voice changes mid-song. But whatever! It is still probably my favorite musical ever.

[Roninjoey]

Posted: 11/10/06 at 10:48am

I think there's a certain quality in Adam Guettel's music, a kind of yearning like there is in his granddaddy's music that a person is able to clearly identify in everything the guy writes. I just think Rodgers was less esoteric. Guettel's discussed this at length in interviews. Hence why songs like How Glory Goes (I agree that it's in a weird place vocally, for me at least) reach farther than you expect them to. There are specific compositional things he does to be found in all of his scores (Mostly in the way he excites and agitates the music), but that's just the mark of the composer. Like Bernstein and his tritones, Sondheim/Kander & Ebb and their vamping.

I think what sets Adam Guettel apart from his grandfather, and also why people might find him tedious or unmelodic (although his usually songs have clear melodies) is that there is suspense in his music, both in the harmony and because just when you think you've finally got the hang of this song it goes and does something different. I think people find it weird how he doesn't resolve typically, but rather to a completely different place. I just can't agree that Guettel's music doesn't sound fresh. I think his music always sounds spontaneous and alive and at the end the sense of inevitability is there. Bernstein is much the same, his music just screams vibrancy and there's a wonderful suspense when appropriate. Guettel's songs do more to give the singer a journey rather than "Sing the same thing three times but get louder each time." I think this is also why his finales play so well. You're in suspense the whole show about exactly where the music is going, and then in the finale you find out. I think it's sort of awesome. There's an actual score rather than just song placement.

As for the relative appropriateness of his music for a singer -- if you don't like it or don't feel up to the task, just don't sing the song. Many other people have sung Guettel's songs to great effect. I suppose you'll just have to leave it to them.

P.S. I think Saturn Returns is a different kind of show from his other shows. I feel like it was always meant to be an album and the fact that the songs reflect his voice and his intentions so specifically is appropriate. He was writing for himself.

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 11/10/06 at 12:58pm

Saturn Returns was initially a concert. I think more of a song cycle when first presented in NYC. It wasn't really turned into a theatrical event until the Prince in Philadelphia presented it as such.

[geekgirl06]

Posted: 11/10/06 at 4:06pm

Wow! I TOTALLY agree with the OP. Honestly, my mom LOVES Guettel, but I heard Piazza a year ago and turned to her and said "This is Floyd Collins in Italian". I would like to hear his other work before I give up on his ability as a composer (can't wait for Princess Bride!) just because Floyd Collins was completely forgotten except a few songs (namely "How Glory Goes") and maybe he figured he could put the same sounds into a show that it would work better with.

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 11/10/06 at 4:15pm

I think you should develop a way to tell the difference between compositional style (the use of harmony and intervals) and using the same device. IN Floyd the flavor is more country western in style. How that sounds like the Italian life in Piazza is beyond me. My guess is that you're hearing his style and saying he just sounds the same, which is not true. I think if you listen close enough you'll see how different it truly is. If you don't, then you'll be writing off lots of composers like Gershwin, Rodgers, Sondheim, Kander...well all of them really.

[bjivie2]

Posted: 11/10/06 at 4:25pm

I would say Guettel is a difficult composer to sing mostly because he uses atypical intervals, chord progessions and time signatures. Yes, you may have to be a very good musician to sing it, but that's life.

And the style thing is interesting. Guettel definitely has his "Guettelisms" just like Sondheim does, just like Rodgers does, just like Kander does, just like EVERYONE does. It doesn't make his music less dramatic of affecting, though. I think he does an incredible job adapting to whatever style he's writing to. The range of his theatrical voice as a composer is astounding.

[Ourtime992]

Posted: 11/10/06 at 4:33pm

I never cease to be amazed when I hear people say that the score to Floyd Collins is unremarkable with the exception of How Glory Goes and The Ballad of Floyd Collins. It's not that I don't appreciate those songs, but for me, Floyd Collins is all about The Call and The Dream. Or even Through the Mountain. Or Lucky. Or Daybreak. I mean, seriously, I find the whole score compelling and beautiful (except for I Landed on Him, because I don't think that number was meant to be particularly compelling or beautiful).

I also take exception to the idea that Guettel's stuff all sounds the same. Seriously? Give me a song from Floyd Collins that sounds anything like a song from Light in the Piazza. Some of the songs in Saturn Returns are similar, but I never get a sense of monotony from them. In fact, I'd be hard-pressed to actually name a common vein that is undeniably "Guettel" in any of his works, other than broad generalizations about the spiritual, open-ended quality of his music.

And to clarify an earlier comment: I don't think Hero and Leander is any more vocally challenging than most of Guettel's other stuff, but it is more difficult to improvise with. Specifically, the ah section is written to be improvised vocalise, but I sure haven't found a way to improvise the vocal line very well.

[geekgirl06]

Posted: 11/10/06 at 4:37pm

Sorry, I don't really know the difference between compositional style and using the same device. I do know that Floyd Collins and Piazza sound the same. I know a lot of composers use similar styles in their writing, because you can hear it in their work. But the best composers can write different shows and make each one unique enough to stand out from the others. Sondheim was great at this with his past works and Schwartz with Wicked (but listen to Pippin and Godspell and you can distinctly hear similarities). But when I can't listen to "The Beauty Is" without thinking of "The Carnival"... sure, they are different, but not enough so imho.

[geekgirl06]

Posted: 11/10/06 at 4:44pm

And I do want to clarify myself that I agree with ourtime on one fact. I believe Floyd Collins is a wonderful score. I love Lucky and Daybreak and The Ballad of Floyd Collins and all three parts of The Call. I was just expecting to hear something equally as remarkable when I listened to Piazza and all I got was what I think is a cheaper version of Floyd Collins in Italy (though I do admit I am partial to "Let's Walk")

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 11/10/06 at 4:51pm

It's funny you put Sondheim as sounding so vastly different. Guettel didn't do that? That's why I said I think it's a developed ear issue rather than sounding the same. I don't see how The Beauty Is sounds too much like the Carnival. And I'm not sure what you mean by cheaper Floyd Collins. I think you're talking about compositional style. It also seems that you had issues because you're expectations weren't met.

[TheEnchantedHunter]

Posted: 11/10/06 at 6:45pm

Roninjoey, I appreciate and value your input.

The problem with Guettel is that he starts his songs with tantalizing promise, a hint of melody there, an engaging vamp there, but then when it comes to development, he consistently falls down on the job. Too soon he's spinning his wheels, expectations are crushed, and the auditor is left disappointed. It happened time and time again in PIAZZA. Even the best work he's done, the opening sequence of FLOYD COLLINS with the brilliantly conceived and glorious echo sequence, soon comes to naught and becomes a boring muddle because he doesn't know when enough is enough. Nice try (and he tries too hard) but he doesn't have the gift.



Mei Li
Beating her flower drum in San Francisco

[actormcfamous]

Posted: 11/11/06 at 2:23am

"Composers put down lyric lines, but then when actually put into a performance might be hard for a singer to actually sing. Like they might not provide breaks for breathing, etc. so therefore the actor must fit a bunch of words into a certain line in order to breath, etc. I'm not saying its done all the time, but it's done."

Okay, can I just say that this is a ridiculous argument? Just because a song is technically too difficult for you does NOT mean that it's bad or poorly written. It means that you have to work in order to sound good, which is generally a more rewarding process in the long run than trying to belt "Defying Gravity" at the top of your lungs.

[RentBoy86]

Posted: 11/11/06 at 1:40pm

Okay, don't get your "Defying Gravity" reference, that song I'm sure is difficult to sing. But, I'm not whining and saying it's "too hard for me to sing." I'm saying, some composers put too many lyrics into one line, and it might make sense on paper, but when put into performance, the melody doesn't really work. Or maybe the composer wanted too many words to be put into the line, and when they actor tries to do so, the audience can't understand a word they're saying (I.E. The Queen in "the Pirate Queen).


So I read this book about the most influential musicals, and in the list were RENT, Hair, Oklahoma, and Floyd Collins. Now, someone please explain to me how this musical - Floyd - changed the American musical? I think it's a great show, but I don't think it's in anyway as infulential as the author made it out to be. If anything, Piazza was more so.

[BSoBW2]

Posted: 11/11/06 at 2:29pm

What did Piazza do?

And do you really think composers are worrying if every single amateur performer can sing their songs. Yeah, I can just see Mozart and Shickaneder arguing about the Ahs in "Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen."

"I told ya once if I told ya a million times, it's too damn much!"

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 11/11/06 at 3:28pm

BSo: Well, the "ah's" in Der Holle Rache are part of a word, whereas the "Ah's" in "Say It Somehow" are not. But I agree with you and the others on this thread, just pointing that out.

kyle.: Dude, we were studying 19th-20th century rural South music in my music course, and everytime I thought of Floyd Collins. Guettel did his homework. It is absolutely amazing.

Anyway, I've always thought that Floyd Collins and LitP sound nothing alike. Both have music that is very based on their locations, as mentioned above.

JazzySuite: HAHAHA, your remark about ALW is so true. Also consider Christine in Phantom. She has to sing E6 and then go down really friggin' low in other places. It can be absolutely killer for a soprano. Urgh.

As for difficulty, I've never had any difficulty singing Guettel pieces. Someone mentioned the title song being hard; I never found it difficult at all. "The Beauty Is" is much worse to me because the piano does not carry you at all and in fact often sounds quite jarring. Nellie's part in Floyd Collins is easy for me; "Through the Mountain" goes low but not too low, just comfortably low for a soprano. I do know though that my voice teacher told me that Guettel was tough stuff and she knew I'd be able to sing "Poor Wand'ring One" from Pirates of Penzance because I was able to sing LitP pieces.

Range-wise, LitP is really easy; if you're a soprano, Clara is probably one of the best roles to sing because it's just such a comfortable range (aside from the mixed belt.) Margaret can go too low for me at times, and the "money notes" in "Dividing Day" are right on my passagio, but I'm just fine in her part in "Statues and Stories" and "Fable."

I kind of have to admit that I'm biased though because Guettel loves sopranos, and I think that sopranos need some good roles nowadays when belters are getting all of the attention now.

Updated On: 11/11/06 at 03:28 PM