The Pirate Queen 11/1- Page 3

[SueleenGay]

Posted: 11/6/06 at 6:19pm

But Starlight, you are just reiterating what everyone has said since the first performance. The cast is great, the sets, lights, costumes all wonderful.
If only the cast, sets lights and costumes WERE the problem. But to rewrite a SUNG THROUGH show in two months (after all the time they have been working on it prior to the Chicago is a GIGANTIC job. It will have to be re-orchestrated, re-staged, possibly redesigned. It is much easier to recast a lead or make new costumes than it is to make an interesting story out of what is on stage now.

[Starlight2]

Posted: 11/6/06 at 8:10pm

Thanks for your comments, Sueleen. About rewriting the show in two months....I guess that's where I may differ from you in your thoughts about the show. I don't believe the whole show needs to be rewritten. I only believe a few things could be a little better clarified. The show began in Chicago in early Oct. and, as I understand it, changes were made often...even daily...as is normal during previews. That was only a month's worth of changes and from what I've heard from others who had a chance to see it then, the changes made even in that short amount of time helped to better clarify the storyline. They now have two months (or more) to work out things that may not be as clear as they would like. I think that gives them time to make any changes they believe need to be made.

As for the show being interesting....I was totally drawn in by the love story between Grania and Tiernan. I could feel their love and their pain. While I watched the show, the reactions of others in the theatre demonstrated to me that the audience was also emotionally involved and drawn in by the characters and the action on stage. I'm excited to see what is ahead for this show. I believe that the people working on this will continue to improve upon what is already a beautiful and engaging production.

[SueleenGay]

Posted: 11/6/06 at 10:34pm

I would suggest dropping the sung dialog and replace it with book scenes. Much easier to rewrite. You don't compose and orchestrate over night, and and it would help solve some of the problems with the court scenes. Just face the fact that it would better as a book musical rather than a opera, write some strong scenes with some real conflict and character development and they might have a chance.

[TechEverlasting]

Posted: 11/6/06 at 10:39pm

"But to rewrite a SUNG THROUGH show in two months (after all the time they have been working on it prior to the Chicago is a GIGANTIC job."

Thank you SuleenGay, you expressed that more clearly than I have been able to. When I said this show has gotten nowhere in previews, I in no way meant to imply that the cast and crew aren't working hard and aren't giving brilliant performances. My point is that when a book and a story concept are as flawed as this one is, all the little cuts and lyric rewrites in the world can't amount to anything significant. For example kelzama suggested that there'd be more dramatic impact if we didn't learn what a scoundrel Donal was until after the wedding. That's an interesting notion, but what then is the point of "Boys Will Be Boys"? The show needs some sort of charm song at this point, so does some new humorous angle need to be dug up? "Boys Will Be Boys" leads nicely into the wedding, with Donal smoothly transitioning from hanging out with his pals in the bar to kneeling at his wedding ceremony. So how do we get the now seemingly noble Donal there? etc. etc. etc.

There is a point at which it makes a lot more sense just to start over, preferrably with a writer who has some fresh ideas.

"I would suggest dropping the sung dialog and replace it with book scenes"

Quite a few spoken lines were added between my first and second viewings of the show. It made me wonder at what point a show is no longer considered to be "sung through".

Updated On: 11/6/06 at 10:39 PM

[CurtainPullDowner]

Posted: 11/6/06 at 10:44pm

Sueleen, your one woman postings to sink this show are ridiculous.
The producers have more Money than GOD and whether you like it or not this show will arrive on Broadway and be a hit because there is a lot of good stuff to work with and they will not make it a "book" show cause you want them to.
Clearing up the story and giving it a strong thru line for Grania
will not take that mudch work.
Are you using Betty Hutton as a Role model?
She ended up in a looney bin too.

[brdlwyr]

Posted: 11/6/06 at 10:58pm

I cannot document the changes because there was not list of songs, but I know that from the first week to the fourth week there was great improvement. The show flowed much better and the relationships were developed. Linda was more nuanced with her humor and her relationship with the Bill Youmens (sp.)

The dancing was tighter and I found the relationship between Grania and Frasier to be nicer.

I seriously do not have the base of knowledge to make any legitimate offerings as to how restructure the book and story.

I will offer my thoughts when I see it next.

[SueleenGay]

Posted: 11/6/06 at 10:59pm

Joe Brooks has more money than God and look what happened to him.
I could give a **** if this show succeeds, based on what I saw. I hope for the sake of the cast and everyone that has poured their sweat and blood into it that they CAN fix it.

whether you like it or not this show will arrive on Broadway and be a hit
"Oh, Magic Eight Ball, will the Pirate Queen be a hit?"
"Yes! No matter what Sueleen Gay writes on a freaking message board, she WILL NOT SINK THIS SHIP!"


By the way, Betty did NOT end up in the loony bin. She faced her demons and led a very fulfilling life in her later post-Hollywood days.

[B3TA07]

Posted: 11/6/06 at 11:05pm

Just thought I'd bring this article to the attention of anyone who hadn't seen it and would want to read it:

http://www.playbill.com/news/article/103327.html

--Ben

[TechEverlasting]

Posted: 11/6/06 at 11:12pm

Lady Italy: "TechEverlasting I have a question? When was the last time you saw The Pirate Queen? If you haven't seen it in the last week or so, the foundation of your comments are weak!!"

Oh really? They've fixed it all up in the past week? (They sure as hell didn't fix it up before the critics saw it five days after my second viewing!) Why haven't I heard about this from anyone who has seen the show recently? I saw The Pirate Queen twice, and it's clear from many reports that Lord Bingham still prattles on about Grania's "balls", Grania and Queen Elizabeth still settle the Irish/English conflict behind a screen at the end and the show still opens with that jarring repetitive melody that is so oddly reminiscent of the Phantom's "Don Juan" opera, the way it keeps going up and down, over and over again.

When did you see The Pirate Queen last Lady Italy? What big changes and improvements did you notice? How often should I go see it to meet your criteria? I am curious.

From CurtainPullDowner:

"The producers have more Money than GOD and whether you like it or not this show will arrive on Broadway and be a hit..."

Thanks, that's the funniest thing I've read on this board in weeks. You think that the producer's money is going to be enough to make this show into a hit? Only if they use it to buy millions of dollars worth of tickets for several years. (Garth Drabinsky tried this with Ragtime, and it didn't work out well for him.) I'm sure Warner Brothers will be glad to hear that producers who have deep pockets make for guaranteed hits. No doubt, it's extremely difficult to get a ticket to Lestat these days!

What John McColgan and Moya Doherty need is creativity and inspiration. (There isn't much of it on display at the Cadillac Palace currently). If they could bring some of that to Broadway, they might actually make money, instead of spending it like drunken sailors.

[CurtainPullDowner]

Posted: 11/6/06 at 11:20pm

if you don't give a (sh*t) about the show
why post 9.765 items?
Spend your time writing a bio of Betty,
I loved her in ANNIE GET YOUR GUN
but Judy's outakes were more interesting.

[SueleenGay]

Posted: 11/7/06 at 1:08am

I said I don't care about the success of the show based on what I saw on that stage.
By the way, I forget, how many times have YOU seen Pirate Queen?

[TechEverlasting]

Posted: 11/7/06 at 9:06am

>"I forget, how many times have YOU seen Pirate Queen?"

I'm going to be sure to go see The Pirate Queen four times a week from now on. I so enjoy these discussions, and would hate to be unqualified to talk about this show. Of course all Pirate Queen posts on this board will have to cease on Dec 3, since no one will then have been able to see the show within the required one week limit.

The constant talk about how the creative team is going to "clarify" The Pirate Queen's story got me thinking about Les Mis, which is a show I love. I've seen Les Mis at least 12 times, and I really don't have a clue what the basic story is about. Some French college students trying to overthrow the government maybe? I did start reading the book at one point, but unlike the Grania novel, this is a case where the stage version is more entertaining.

My point is that the Les Mis score and book are so compelling and well written that no plot synopsis needs to be projected on the curtain during the overture, and no spoken lines have to be added so we understand why the barricade has been built or who Cossette is.

If The Pirate Queen had a historian come out before each performance and give a 20 minute lecture on 16th century Irish politics "My Grace" and "Now Is The Time" would still be lame songs.

Updated On: 11/7/06 at 09:06 AM

[SueleenGay]

Posted: 11/7/06 at 12:47pm

I am sorry, Tech, that question was for Downer who seems to have a problem with people who have actually seen the show criticizing it although he/she has not told us what he/she thinks of the show and the enormous changes that have occurred from the first preview to Sunday's performance.

[TechEverlasting]

Posted: 11/7/06 at 12:56pm

I knew what you meant SuleenGay, no need to apologize to little old me!

I just find it funny to be told that two viewings isn't enough to be qualified to express my opinions about this show. (There are others who have posted plenty about The Pirate Queen, having seen it exactly two fewer times than I have.)

Also, I'm probably not going to see The Pirate Queen four times a week for the rest of its Chicago run.

[ElphieDefiesGravity]

Posted: 11/9/06 at 2:07am

I got back about an hour ago from seeing the show again. We had nosebleed seats, but were able to move waaay down to almost the bottom of the balcony, which was about half empty. The theatre is HUUUUGE. It's amazing how much you miss when you're so far away. I enjoyed it much more from up close.

We went to the stagedoor afterwards. Everyone was very gracious and sweet. We had a nice conversation with Stephanie J. Block, who is absolutely the most adorable, sweetest, most considerate person I've ever met. She had individual, actual conversations with everyone waiting (About 5 pairs of people). SO. NICE. She and another cast member said they've already started rewriting and reworking, and that they're changing and rewriting at LEAST 30% of the show for New York. It's obvious they know about the reviews and that it needs work. I really, really hope they can fix it so it succeeds.

[Popular]

Posted: 11/9/06 at 4:07am

EDG -that's too bad about the nosebleed seats . Love your SD description!

"She and another cast member said they've already started rewriting and reworking, and that they're changing and rewriting at LEAST 30% of the show for New York."

According to the Sun-Times (why do I feel like I'm leaking info quoting them even though it's there in black and white?)...

"Richard Maltby Jr., the lyricist who conceived "Ain't Misbehavin' " and collaborated with Alain Boublil on the English lyrics for "Miss Saigon," has been called in to help rework the Boublil-Schonberg musical "The Pirate Queen."

Bottom of the article Updated On: 11/9/06 at 04:07 AM

[TechEverlasting]

Posted: 11/9/06 at 7:29am

""Richard Maltby Jr.... has been called in to help rework the Boublil-Schonberg musical "The Pirate Queen."

Thank you for posting this Popular. You made my day!

What has frustrated me about this whole situation has been Doherty and McColgan's continuing insistence that all they needed to do was "clarify" their story and that no additional creatives were needed to help do this.

Boublil and Schonberg working with collaborators like Richard Maltby Jr and James Fenton brought us Les Mis and Miss Saigon. Working on their own they came up with Martin Guerre.

Now I'm actually looking forward to seeing The Pirate Queen again next year.

Updated On: 11/9/06 at 07:29 AM

[SueleenGay]

Posted: 11/9/06 at 9:49am

Well that is a step in the right direction, I suppose, but I am not sure that the man who brought us Ring of Fire and Big, and who is best known for revue type shows is the man for this job.
Good luck, though.

PS. I am still waiting for CurtainPullDowner's review of Pirate Queen.

[TechEverlasting]

Posted: 11/9/06 at 11:02am

Your point is well taken, SuleenGay, but I'm just so ecstatic to hear that these producers have finally acknowledged that they need new writing talent. The Pirate Queen desperately needs an outsider who hasn't been wrapped up in the current version for years to bring a fresh approach to the material.

This is something I've been saying for weeks. Several people here have strongly criticized me for saying it. Guess what folks, Doherty and McColgan agree with me! Go tell them they're being "inappropriate".

What would really make me happy would be to read that the Broadway opening had been delayed by at least a month, Galati had been fired and an experienced music supervisor like David Caddick or Bob Billig had been brought in.

Still, this little show has a fighting chance now.

[Lady Italy]

Posted: 11/9/06 at 11:24am

Dear Tech~ Yep they do use the term "balls" just as many times in the show... not one has been taken out. But, this did not offend me nor anyone around me. Historically...the term balls was very appropriate for that day and age. Those in the middle ages were very verbal on there turns of genitalia. Does that make it pleasing to todays ear? Not particularly, however are we to change what was and take terms out of context (as they were used) just to make something more potically correct. Why not rewrite the words of Shakespear to make his words more attainable to todays ear. History is what it is. The way our ancestors spoke is how they spoke. So get over the "balls" and let the show play.

The last time I saw the show was Nov 6. No there are not going to be any more changes until rehearsals for NY. Just the same I and many like me still enjoy(ed) this show. Is it the best it can be...NO. Does it need work...YES. Is it a train wreck ready to be discarded and forgotten about...ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!!!

I have been saying time and time again that big changes were going to be happening. Now you've seen it in black and white that others are being brought in to collaborate the rework of this show. Now will this board please understand the term let the NY opening be the determining factor. Previews are Previews and this venue is used to see the good, bad and the ugly of it all. Let's stop the bashing (and I continue to use this word for it comes across that way) and let the creative team go forward and do what needs doing.

So Tech and Sueleen get over yourselves. Get a job directing some stage play so that your minds can be totally involved in something other than trashing the Pirate Queen and speaking on WHAT YOU think this show needs.

Updated On: 11/9/06 at 11:24 AM

[SorryGrateful]

Posted: 11/9/06 at 11:53am

Lady Italy-- do you read anything completely that people type? Feel free to read Tech's posts completely and you'll see a desire to see the show succeed. You seem to think that any criticism is bad and that everything will be fine, so everyone just shut up about it! What's the point of having a message board where everyone only says positive things about shows, even when they are deeply flawed?

"I have been saying time and time again that big changes were going to be happening. Now you've seen it in black and white that others are being brought in to collaborate the rework of this show."

Your omniscience is really neat! I'm so glad that you can see into the future. Maybe you should have suggested this new writer to the producers a month ago and we could have skipped all the heartache!

"So Tech and Sueleen get over yourselves. Get a job directing some stage play so that your minds can be totally involved in something other than trashing the Pirate Queen and speaking on WHAT YOU think this show needs."

Please feel free to take some of your own advice on this one. Discussing a show that is clearly not good is not "bashing." Sometimes it's even called a discussion. When I put my honest opinions out there after I had seen the show, you attacked me for expecting too much of the show or maybe I was expecting something different and do I understand Irish history? In my opinion, you've been bashing the people whom you have accused of bashing. What are we supposed to do when there are fans such as yourself who are so vehement that everything will be just fine when it clearly will not be? Are you only going to have discussions with people who have the same opinion as you? Why won't you just admit that The Pirate Queen needs some SERIOUS work in order to pull off a good show for the talented cast?

[TechEverlasting]

Posted: 11/9/06 at 12:08pm

Lady Italy, I'm rolling on the floor with laughter over your comparison of The Pirate Queen's constant use of the word "balls" with Shakespear (was he any relation to Shakespeare?). It seems to be a waste of time to say this, but I will once again remind you that this is a theater opinion board. I will bash whatever I want to, whenever I like.

Several people including yourself have had very positive things to say about The Pirate Queen, and I have never questioned the validity of their opinions or their right to express them. It's fine if you want to disagree with me. Apparently I'm not the only one who thinks this show needs some new writing talent.

I have never said that the Pirate Queen was a "train wreck ready to be discarded and forgotten about." I happen to think it's a train wreck that needs some fresh ideas to save it. I watched Martin Guerre go through one revision after another, year after year, and from what I saw it never got any better. I truly believe that if Boublil and Schonberg had been left on their own to rewrite The Pirate Queen we would have just gotten more of the same sort of dreck this spring. I am very happy that we'll never find out.

As much as you might resent the theater critics who have been so negative about this show, I hope you appreciate that this negative feedback is a big part of what has motivated The Pirate Queen's producers to bring in some new blood and try to fix it.

[Lady Italy]

Posted: 11/9/06 at 7:38pm

Dear Tech and SorryGrateful~

The two of you are made for each other. Your thought process is basically the same, not to say your theatrical reviews. I have had enough of your rhetoric and ridicule. Again IMO this is a good show and it will just get better.

And Tech...if something so simple as leaving off the last "e" in SHAKESPEARE is so hilarious, I can understand how you do not appreciate PQ as it stands. The show needs the viewer to listen and pay strick attention to the story line (as does Les Mes). Apparently simplicity is more your style. Let's not have to think...instant gratification seems to be the style of the day.

We disagree and there is no compromise. So be It!!! I wish you, SorryGrateful and SueleenGay all the best. Hopefully the future will only bring a wonderful outcome to The Pirate Queen.

Joy and Peace to you all.
Updated On: 11/9/06 at 07:38 PM

[Galilee]

Posted: 11/9/06 at 7:54pm

I am laughing at the crazy trite arguements over a non issue. None of you are on the creative team, you all are entitled to your opinions good, bad and HOPEFUL.

Get back to your corners and pray for the best.

From what I have read here, no one wants this show to flop. I think opinions are just that OPINIONS nothing more.

PUH-lease....Lady Italy you are killin' me

CIAO

[brdlwyr]

Posted: 11/9/06 at 11:08pm

The use of the word "balls" is comical and I hope it is removed as a distraction.

I wanted to take the kids on Saturday and there are only $82 tickets! So, not a flop yet.

The show is too long to take C8 to an evening performance, and I am not paying 82 for him!