The great irony: homophobic conservatives who love RENT- Page 3

[robbiej]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 11:58am

Me hopes bella was kidding.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 12:00pm

If I equated conservative with homophobic and conservative with Republican and homophobic with Republican, I wouldn't feel the need to be redundant by listing each adjective. It's amazing how no matter how adeptly you utilize the English language, people read what they want to.

I DO NOT think conservative = homophobic

or that

Republican = homophobic

or that

conservative = Republican

I BELIEVE in the existence of the Religious Left. In Gay/Gay Friendly Republicans. In Conservative Gays. Etc Etc Etc.

I could have started this thread: Why do conservatives and why do homophobes love RENT. But, I was particularly fascinated by those people who are both.

I will tell you what I do equate, Derech:

homophobia = bigotry

bigotry = ugliness

thus,

homophobia = ugliness

Why do you choose to be so ugly?

[sanda]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 12:05pm

Then how about this? If a libral doesn't like rent, does it mean he is hypocritic?

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 12:10pm

sanda--again, just not a good comparison. A good comparison might be a liberal loving a show that celebrates homophobia and blood sucking corporate executives. Or liberals loving a show that promotes racism.

That would be a fair comparison. But you can't quantify people who don't associate with a show--we have no idea why they don't.

[sanda]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 12:13pm

I just don't get the idea about associate idea with a show. Or say, associate one's political position with his artistic taste.

To me, they are different issue.

[musicnmath]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 12:16pm

This is a great discussion. I'm jumping in to play devil's advocate (I just want to be very clear on that point up front). I did some studies on the religion-homosexuality connection not long ago, so I had to try and get into other people's heads on this. (A very scary process, I assure you.)

I agree that it's hard to love the religious fanatics. We can tolerate them but do not love, respect, or accept them. But the other side of that coin is that this is their same position on gays. To go back to the original post, for many it's a case of "love the sinner, hate the sin". You can love Angel and Collins (and the others...since we're rooting this is RENT), and love the words the characters say and the the way they say them and sing them, but still lament that their love is ultimately directed toward one of their own sex. Some will say you can love them as children of God, yet hope (pray?) that they may be cured (remember, devil's advocate here). After all, if we can only love them as people, they might see the error of their ways, change their preferences "back", and thereby enter heaven. To some people, this is the most compassionate stand that they can take.

Do you see why this research was scary for me? I offer this only as a counterpoint to the discussion. It's fascinating how a few basic assumptions (namely in the conservative religious discussion that homosexuality is a "voluntary behaviour" not a "sexual orientation") create immovable opinions.

ok....Taking my little devil mask off now that I stirred the pot.
Updated On: 8/3/05 at 12:16 PM

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 12:17pm

And, I do get that. I think of myself as an artist first, and I do not believe in censorship of any kind.

But, wouldn't you say that more times than not, people WORSHIP and ADORE and LOVE and are ADDICTED to a show that doesn't go against their ideals, their beliefs, their prejudices?

I think it's entirely possible for me to respect the quality of art of a KKK musical, but I doubt I would be queen of the show's fan club.

You get the difference?

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 12:25pm

Lyrics I can't begin to imagine homophobic who happen to also be conservatives would be singing at the top of their lungs:


Bisexuals, trisexuals, homo sapiens,
Carcinogens, hallucinogens, men, Pee Wee Herman
German wine, turpentine, Gertrude Stein
Antonioni, Bertolucci, Kurosawa
Carmina Burana
To apathy, to entropy, to empathy, ecstasy
Vaclav Havel - The Sex Pistols, 8BC,
To no shame - never playing the Fame Game
To marijuana
To sodomy,
It's between God and me
To S & M

or

To Faggots, Lezzies, Dykes, Cross
Dressers Too

or to sing the following in the same meaning as the show:

Let He Among Us Without Sin
Be The First To Condemn

Updated On: 8/3/05 at 12:25 PM

[EverythingIsRENT]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 12:27pm

Still wondering which two people this thread was aimed at...=/

[sanda]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 12:28pm

Mmm, now you are dicussing about how deep you love a show instead of like or dislike. Then I get your idea. If you talk about a conservative who DEEPLY adore Rent, it is different from a conservative who like and enjoy Rent.

I think your question now makes more sense to me.

However, I don't think you should judge a person hypocratic because of his artistic taste. There is good art and bad art, but no immoral art. For me, I should make judgement base on his speech and his action.

[Calvin]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 12:29pm

"I think it's entirely possible for me to respect the quality of art of a KKK musical, but I doubt I would be queen of the show's fan club."

To use a concrete example, I have seen "Birth of a Nation" and cannot deny its artistic merit and impact on film-making. But you won't see me going to any D.W. Griffith film festivals. In fact, I'll never watch the movie again.

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 12:30pm

Yes, but there is a great difference. I grant the religious fanactis the right to their beliefs, and lifestyle, so long as they do no harm to anyone else. Many do not show the same respect for those who are different from them, and are actively working to limit the rights and options of those who are different.

Many do not love the sinner but hate the sin . . . they hate it all.

I think that is the core irony . . . there are those who hate all things that in any way condone homosexuality, but then say they like a musical that condones and embrances it. You cannot say that the message is wonderful, but shoot the messenger at the same time, when the messenger is itself part of the message.

At least I think that is the core irony . . .

And, for the record, I am not speaking of anyone in particular on this Board, just in generalities, which itself is always dangerous.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 12:32pm

And, allow me to add that the reason that homophobes are wrong and advocates of Gay Civil Rights are correct is that one group wants equality for some and the other wants equality for ALL.

[musicnmath]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 12:35pm

have we never sung lyrics we didn't agree with? I'm not exactly talking KKK....but I find myself singing along to Nelly or 50 cent or whomever because the music is catchy and it's fun to dance to. If I stop and listen to the words I'm saying, I'm a little horrified at the nasty phrases coming out of my mouth about women - and I am one! All because the music and lyrics were catchy. La Boheme is catchy because it's catchy and the lyrics roll off your tongue in fun ways. I think you could sing it and yet not be all for it's message.

[Calvin]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 12:45pm

But we're not talking about humming along with a pop song or a showtune. We're not even talking about someone going to Rent once and enjoying it. We're talking about people who hate gays, lesbians and homosexuality in general becoming huge fans of a show that has an underlying message of love and "family" contrary to everything they believe.

Oh -- as a side note. Not too long ago, I was singing the title song to Ragtime to myself without thinking too much. I got to the "there were gazebos and there were no Negroes" part, and stopped myself, thinking, did I just say that out loud (in semi-public)?

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 12:45pm

Oh, I knew this thread was going to be a big ball of cognitive dissonance.

[katygrace84]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 12:48pm

Somehow I get a sneaking suspicion that people who "hate the sin and the sinner" yet love Rent don't REALLY love Rent because it's fantastic. They love it because it's "cool" to love it. Remember that we are talking about people who, in some cases, are so afraid of anything different that they are sometimes willing to commit acts of violence. They don't love Rent for its own merits. They love it becasue it makes them sound tolerant or like a theater nut. They love it because loving it makes them just like everyone else. Maybe they love it because they have completely misinterpreted the message. Know what, though? As long as they keep buying tickets Jonathan's play will continue to be performed and the true message of Rent will continue to change people's lives. And maybe, just maybe if they let it in, it may change theirs for the better.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 12:52pm

katy--I think that was my fave post in this thread.

[katygrace84]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 12:54pm

Why thank you, JRB. Thanks, too, for starting a thread that I can get so excited about.

[Calvin]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 12:56pm

"Maybe they love it because they have completely misinterpreted the message."

Perhaps they think the true heroes of the show are Joanne's parents, Alexi Darling and that preacher who makes a nasty comment after Angel's funeral.

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 1:00pm

Ditto. I think Katy and I were in fact switched at birth . . . now if you could just find me a straight, nice Jewish boy who likes musical theater and has a job . ..

[katygrace84]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 1:02pm

Hey, I'll scout for you if you can find me a nice, straight, geeky boy who loves theater. Bonus points if he's here in Chicago and I don't have to leave my beloved city.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 1:04pm

And, then, help me find a nice, adorable gay boy who likes theatre in NYC! I think I'm the only one!!

[katygrace84]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 1:06pm

And I would also like to say to Calvin- you are adorable and intelligent and I love your posts on here.

Um, I guess I just love this whole thread. You are all fabulous!

[katygrace84]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 1:08pm

Aw, JRB! Does it make you feel better to know that there's an adorable theater loving straight chick in Chicago who thinks you're wonderful?

Wait a minute, let's all be threadjackers and just start hooking each other up left and right.