The great irony: homophobic conservatives who love RENT- Page 5

[loudasthehelliwant]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 3:57pm

That's a good point, Wanna Be A Foster, and I don't disagree with you that many people feel that way.

I do wish to point out, however, that Mimi and Roger hardly get to spend the rest of their lives together. Mimi may have been "passed over" that day, but she doesn't have a lot of time left. At least, that is how I've always interpreted it.

And, as a RENThead, I would say that Angel's death almost tears them all apart. They certainly aren't "better" for it.

But I do know, and understand, what you are saying.

This is a fascinating convo...

Updated On: 8/3/05 at 03:57 PM

[Derech2]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 3:57pm

ZONEFACE says:

"they may not go hand in hand, but they stand pretty damn close together.

and whats all this "i dont support homosexuality" Homosexuality doesn't need your support, or your consent, or even your acknowledgement, SO PIPE DOWN."

Are you trying to be ridiculous? I'm sure you hear people say quite often, or perhaps you say yourself, "I do not support the war in Iraq." Well obviously it means next to nothing for actually affecting the War, because millions of Americans "do not support it," but I can tell you quite realistically that Bush has been there for, how many years now, without your support (the war is an example by the way - I'm not trying to put words in your mouth or anything). In typical rhetoric and communication, this means I do not agree. I believe it is wrong. Etc.

And pipe down? Excuse me? My entire post was related to the topic for which this thread was started. I made one relatively tasteful statement regarding my stance on homosexuality (which the thread starter DID bring up). But then, of course, everyone jumps down my throat for being intolerant of their opinions, while they cannot seem to be tolerant of mine.

Elphaba says:

"The Head Homosexual wanted me to make it quite clear to you that we do not support YOU!

We are doing quite well without the support of intolerant bigots like you."

This is almost amusing. I don't even think it's necessary to point out the irony here. So remind me, who exactly is not tolerating who?

[EverythingIsRENT]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 3:59pm

That argument is kind of crappy, because the show is pretty clear that Mimi doesn't have a lot of time left, but it's about celebrating however long there IS left. I think hating the show because Angel dies is just wrong.

[doodlenyc]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 4:01pm

"it has got to stop."

Absolutely, Elph.
Are these comparisons to Chicago supposed to equate being gay with MURDER? Seriously?!?
The pat on the head from these people who claim to like gay people, or are friends with lots of gay people, etc, is nauseating.

Being gay isnt right or wrong...it just IS! No changing it. Kids always wish they could change, but they cannot...

I dont know why the phrase..."with friends like these" comes to mind.

btw, rent is okay but very overrated. I agree with the Angel/Mimi comparison Foster. When Mimi popped her head up...ARRGH!

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 4:05pm

Now don't skewer me, but . . .

I was never under the impression that Roger and Mimi get to live happily ever after . . . he just got the opportunity in the end to tell her how he felt. Nowhere does it say that she and Roger are going to go off into the sunset. Should she have died in the end, probably, (as with Elphaba in Wicked, both endings are a bit of a cop out) but they wanted to have some semblance of love going on and people leaving the theater with at least part of smile.

As for them Sacraficing Angel so all of the straighties could live happily ever after, I always thought that Angel was "sacraficed" because he was a secondary character. And, that they were trying to show that this person, regardless of their sexuality, lived life every day to its fullest and was part of this family of friends. If Mimi had died 2/3 of the way through it don't think it would have had the same effect. But then, I am not as sensitive too the issue as others and have never thought about it in the manner you described.

[Pinguin]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 4:05pm

Yeah Foster, I mean, you could even speculate that the choice to kill off Angel instead of Mimi was made with the knowledge that perhaps most people would like to see the straight couple at the end live on rather than the gay couple...I never really thought about that before.

Updated On: 8/3/05 at 04:05 PM

[katygrace84]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 4:06pm

Foster- I've heard some of the same citicisms. That's why I asked BroadwayBaby6 why he hated Rent. I think no matter how Jonathan wrote some of those characters and situations, people would be upset. Wouldn't it be interesting to see what would happen if Mimi and Angel switched places? It would be a whole different show.
Rentaholic- I don't think that anyone on here has meant to be particularly offensive. We just got into this really great discussion about a very worthy topic and most of us seem to feel very strongly about it. I think you're correct when you say that most of the conservatives on this board have not been the types of people we are talking about. Even though they have been getting thier opinions smashed a bit today I can't name a particular post in which someone was blatantly rude or disrespectful on purpose. But perhaps I speak out of turn a bit on this one. As a straight girl, I'm not the one to be the judhe of what is or is not offensive to the gay community.

[Pinguin]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 4:10pm

There are many reasons why a "liberal homo" would not like Rent...there are many critiques of the show beyond its subject matter. Many people (including me) don't particularly like the music :0)

::hides from the rentheads::

[katygrace84]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 4:12pm

And in the time it took me to post above message, it became outdated and behind the conversation. Just my luck.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 4:13pm

Is only hating a little bit really BETTER than hating in the extreme? Hate is hate. And if you hate someone because of their gender, race, ethnicity, religion, or sexual orientation, you are a big, fat, ugly bigot.

Derech--I don't have to respect your stance on homosexuality anymore than I would the stance of someone who is sexist, racist, or anti-semitic.

[Pinguin]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 4:16pm

I think it is if it's part of the journey to not hating at all.

[Derech2]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 4:20pm

jrb_actor -- Fair enough. Don't expect me to then.

[Borstalboy]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 4:22pm

Whatever. I hear the homophobes love WILL AND GRACE so....there you go.

[katygrace84]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 4:23pm

I stand by my earlier position. As long as the haters want to keep seeing the show and buying tickets, the message of non-hate is still being put out there.

Pinguin- I like your point. My brother was a big homophobe (READ: Not a hater, he was just very uncomfortable around gay men.) until he had a friend in college who was gay. Sometimes people DO open themselves up to the possibility that what they felt wasn't really hate as much as fear of the unknown. Sadly, sometimes I think we have to take what we can get and do our best to help others until the hate is gone.

[Elphaba]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 5:54pm

comparing disagreeing with a war to disagreeing with who someone inherently IS, ranks right up there Derech2 with the morons who think all gays have sex with children or animals......it makes no sense. But then your opinion should make no sense....as it's based on intolerance and bigotry.

[Derech2]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 6:03pm

Reading a post thouroughly is part of the basic etiquette of participating in an online discussion. The war was an example, Elphaba. I clearly stated so. I would be happy to use another one if you are unable to grasp that concept.

[Wanna Be A Foster]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 6:09pm

Derech2, I agree with Elphaba. You can't compare a war to the realities of a specific human being's identity. We are gay, that's not debatable. It's not something to be for or against. It just is, and bigots need to accept the fact that we're HUMAN just like they are and that we're entitled to the same liberties as every other American. I don't see what there's not to get. H-U-M-A-N.

[Elphaba]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 6:09pm

bad examples are still bad examples. I find that haters and bigots tend to use bad examples, and become rather testy when called on it.
Do not do anything on my account. There is no place in my life for ignorant, hateful people. I am still trying to figure out why I wasted my time on your crap.

[Derech2]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 6:18pm

I apologize for my snipiness. It wasn´t necessary.

Elphaba, I'm sorry that you think it was a bad example. I believe you are very much missing the point of my post: I do not support homosexuality. No, of course it does not need my support to progress. I was pointing out how ridiculous it would be to translate my statement as such. Nothing more. Make sense?

I also missed where I said that I hate homosexuals. Could you direct me please?

Wanna Be A Foster, I understand. I apologize if you found it an unfair example. I'm also curious what gave you the impression that I (or someone else?) believe homosexuals to be sub-human.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 6:21pm

Hmmmmm. How would the following statements make people feel?

I don't support black people.

I don't support Jews.

I don't support Hispanics.

I don't support Christians.

I don't support white people.

[Derech2]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 6:26pm

jrb_actor, there is a central premise to your reasoning that I'm sure you are aware that I do not agree with. I've tried to be tactful, but it's working less than I hoped, and I don't wish to needlessly offend people more than I have (or else I would respond in depth to your post ).

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 6:27pm

go for it--I'll win.

Posted: 8/3/05 at 6:30pm

What does it mean when you say "I do not support homosexuality?" Don't you think the ol' girl has been around long enough to just accept her into mainstream society? I mean she is constantly rejected and ...she still shows up. Every decade, every century. She's here, she's queer and I say let's stop trying to keep her out of humanity and let her in the team. I'm sure she will play her little heart out.

Posted: 8/3/05 at 6:33pm

go for it. explain how substituting the word homosexuality with jews or blacks is not the same thing.

Updated On: 8/3/05 at 06:33 PM

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/3/05 at 6:35pm

I'll go ahead and preemptively strike what Derech would attempt to put across (from my blog):

"Gays do not choose their sexual orientation. And even if they did--religion is a chosen facet of human beings and is still protected.

People who oppose homosexuality try to pass it off as a behavior--one like alcholism, pedophilia, serial murder, rape, etc. The HUGE difference is that even if homosexuality was a behavior, it does not adversely affect ANYONE, where as those other behaviors infringe on someone's health or civil rights.

Then they try to say that homosexuality IS an unhealthy behavior. No---promiscuity may be unhealthy behavior. Unsafe sex is unhealthy behavior. But homosexuality has nothing to do with health.

The other thing is showing people that being gay isn't a lifestyle--it's just a part of who you are just like hair color or race or gender or religion. There is no such thing as a gay lifestyle. There are stereotypes of what that is--but it is the same lifestyle as heterosexual people who engage in a party and/or hedonistic lifestyle."