Was Nine's Win an Upset?

Well it certainly was an upset to Michael Bennett and Dreamgirls! Apparently the late inclusion of Tunes' Nine really pissed Benentt off.

Loved both shows-saw them the exact same day.

Timing, sometimes its everything.

Nine was a show that was written by a total novice and was brilliantly staged by Tommy Tune. While I have seen the show on tape, I can't say I saw it live. Those that did have said it was one of the few masterpieces they ever saw on a stage. Yeston turned out a big and beautiful score to a complex story with a top notch cast assembled on stage.

I think Dreamgirls was a great show as well- but in my book Nine is one of the true greats, and it is so sad that for so many non-theater goers their knowledge of the property is the failed motion picture.

It was a surprise more than an upset. Dreamgirls was a big hit and the talk of the season. Nine opened just in time to be eligible for the Tonys and was the surprising winner that night, but Dreamgirls cleaned up just fine, especially in the acting categories and Tune and Bennett split the Direction and Choreography awards. At the time I had only seen Dreamgirls, was obsessed of course, and was surprised this other show took Best Musical. Then I became just as obsessed by the gorgeous "usurper". All in all, I wouldve been happy if they shared the award, as Nine didnt deserve to lose either. What a season!

"Sunday in the Park" did the same thing, opening just before the cutoff and being nom'd for as many awards as the BIG hit "La Cage"...but before all of us got to see it. That was just two years later...it just didnt win.

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I think Dreamgirls, too, is a masterpiece. And I'd say it's a far more important musical than Nine in terms of theme and its take on racial issues. Nine, when you get down to it, is about a rich and handsome man's midlife crisis. It's great...but it doesn't have the historical heft that Dreamgirls does. What it has is musical heft through that sumptuous score. Dreamgirls, on the other hand, gets dismissed because it explores the darker themes of what it means to be black in America through pop music.

Once again, it's like comparing West Side Story and The Music Man, which are as close to perfect as musicals get. Same with Nine and Dreamgirls.

Nine is one of the most beautiful musicals ever written. A true masterpiece.

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Wasn't Bennett happy with the half dozen of Tony's he had already won?

I worked on the original DREAMGIRLS production when it premiered in Boston, leaving the audience dumb-founded and speechless after the first act curtain. The silence went on for what seemed like minutes, although it was only probably about twenty seconds. Of course, what happened next... the response was the most deafening sound I've ever heard in a theatre. The Boston audiences were stunned by what they had just witnessed and these were seasoned, hard-core theatergoers who had witnessed a lifetime of theatrical magic.

NINE opened late in the season and was the 'new kid' on the block. I always say the DREAMGIRLS cast had pissed off everyone in town for six months, stiffing one waiter after another, so by the time of the Tonys, it was payback time. And yes, it was a shocker NINE won!

If you ever see the Tony broadcast from 1982, the five producers are shown on the screen in blocks and as they announce 'Nine' as 'Best Musical,' I swear Dreamgirls' producer Bernie Jacobs can be seen saying 'Holy F**k!' At the time and in hindsight, it's hysterical.

I know NINE is a favorite here and rightly so, but DREAMGIRLS with its stunning performances and cinematic staging was a monumental production. I loved NINE, too, and it won 'Best Musical' and in that time and place, it probably was. Then again, who ever said the Tonys actually always give the award to the best?

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Sondheim would never have won the Tony for MERRILY. The show was considered a disaster (the recording had just become available, months after the show closed), and the award was clearly going to go to NINE or DREAMGIRLS.

And the trick about opening at the very end of the season really was started that year, when NINE introduced what came to be known as "the Tommy Tune rule."

I lived in NYC back then and I remember "Dreamgirls" being the absolute talk of the town. I saw it in February '82 and thought it was stunning. It's Tony win seemed pre-ordained and then "Nine" came out of nowhere with rave reviews and long lines. "Nine" was touted as being superior in artistic achievement, which I think it was, and "Dreamgirls" was talked about in terms of staging and choreography. "Nine" was definitely a presence in the media, though. You didn't have to see the show to be familiar with the white geometric set design.

I think what might have also hurt "Dreamgirls" is Michael Bennett's reputation by that point. He'd burned bridges and alienated many in the theater community after the "Chorus Line" success. I seem to recall much vitriol when his name came up with colleagues at the time, not that that's what you base awards on...but it sure doesn't help. I suppose the Best Musical could have gone either way, but "Nine" definitely had a "new-kid-on-the-block" aura that gave it a bit of an edge in the end.

I remember what the consensus here suggests, that most people tended to like both shows, that they were perceived (rightly) to be entirely different in tone, style and execution of course. Yet because both bore the strong imprint of innovative directors, there wasn't a lot of the sort of SUNDAY vs. LA CAGE debate, which were more "the future of musical theater" angle we often still hear, old school vs. new.

That said, there were some who groused that NINE was the more "adult" show because it was elegantly Euro-centric, as opposed to a show about Motown. Remember, the core form of the music in DREAMGIRLS hadn't fully left radio airplay in the early 80s. The 60s were still in our rearview mirror. So it seemed contemporary in tone. Now, of course, DREAMGIRLS seems more substantive from a sociopolitical even historical standpoint, if not necessarily an artistic one. A show about an Italian narcissist is a rarefied slice of a very select global demographic; a show about a distinctly American, very popular art form has a longer reach into our collective consciousness. Nothing to do with artistic merit, but certainly as the separate films reminded us, DREAMGIRLS is about us, the role our music plays in our culture. NINE is about -- well, an Italian man with women trouble. (Yes, more than that -- but the take-away? A film maker who burns out? Not a universal experience.) I don't think these content issues can be left out of the discussion when the influence or reputations are debated.

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Updated On: 6/2/12 at 07:46 AM

"I thought Nine was showy in a "look at me I'm theatrical" kind of way "

Funny, that's how I felt about Dreamgirls.

Actually, all of Bennett's shows had that "look at me aren't I brilliant" feel.

That's funny Front Row, cause at the time I was really young. I'm sure even younger than you were. I was a mere 7 years old. I instantly loved and understood Nine(the best a 7yo can)and was confused by Dreamgirls and not into at all. I dragged mom and dad back to Nine a few more times during it's run but had no desire to return to Dreamgirls. I remember even at that early age loving the score to Nine. I used to go home and play the record and perform the entire show playing everyones role. When I got on the floor and performed A Call From The Vatican is when my parents realized I was gay.

Updated On: 6/2/12 at 09:22 AM