#76
Posted: 7/24/11 at 1:45pm
Phyllis, why are you lumping me in there with them? What did I say??
What do you think of an All-Black version of "Les Miserables" — Page 4
#77
Posted: 7/24/11 at 2:05pm
I thought you took issue with color-blind casting? If not, I stand corrected.
#78
Posted: 7/24/11 at 2:05pm
julesboogie, I disagree on Aida. It's a pop score with some rock and gospel influences. If a white kid can sing the part in an amateur high school production, then she deserves a chance. It's a show that does not have to rely on race to get its message across. I saw a multi-cultural production (white Aida, Indian Zoser, Hispanic Mereb, Chinese Nehebka, Israeli Amneris, and a black pharoah, as well as multi-cultural Egyptians and Nubians) that create the class distinctions by color blocking the costumes. The Egyptians wore red, orange, and gold; the Nubians wore purple, blue, and gray. The Egyptians had elaborate jewelry and hair; the Nubians had no accessories and plain hair. It worked. The leads were capable of singing the styles needed in the show and it worked. I talked to the director afterwards and she said she only cared about casting the best people she had for the right roles.
#79
Posted: 7/24/11 at 8:33pm
"Ugh, you're P.C. crap has gotten out of control. A black Valjean and Javert? No, no, even better -- a black Courfeyrac?! LOL Yeah, okay. Show me a black person in France in the 19th century, and then maybe we'll talk. There's such a thing as historical accuracy, people. Your all just too P.C. "
Show me a French 19th Century person who sings Europop, and then you'll have a point. I really really don't get the upset about colour blind casting. Sometimes it takes a second to get used to it, but unless it's a show like Show Boat that deals specifically in race, I don't have any issue with it. (Reminds me of the person on here who was so upset that Jon in Tales of the City was cast with a black actor, because women in the 70s would never trust a black gynecologist... It never played a part in the play).
Show me a French 19th Century person who sings Europop, and then you'll have a point. I really really don't get the upset about colour blind casting. Sometimes it takes a second to get used to it, but unless it's a show like Show Boat that deals specifically in race, I don't have any issue with it. (Reminds me of the person on here who was so upset that Jon in Tales of the City was cast with a black actor, because women in the 70s would never trust a black gynecologist... It never played a part in the play).
#80
Posted: 7/24/11 at 8:36pm
Sean, I usually agree with you, but...
"Seriously, I've never quite understood the argument presented here. An all-black DOLLY is okay, an all-black GUYS AND DOLLS is okay, but an all-anything-but-black FENCES wouldnt be? Are the songs in AINT MISBEHAVIN' so un-universal that one couldnt fathom the idea of colour-blind casting that puppy? "
Obviously ideally in the future an all white (what a concept) Misbehavin would be possible. But it's not the same thing. The reason Dolly and Guys and Dolls were done all black was because, at the time, black actors simply could not be cast in the usual versions of them.
I actually think the concept of an all any race production, now, is something that needs to be killed and buried. But the argument also makes me think of people who complain about gay pride parades, and say "why don't we have straight pride parades".
"Seriously, I've never quite understood the argument presented here. An all-black DOLLY is okay, an all-black GUYS AND DOLLS is okay, but an all-anything-but-black FENCES wouldnt be? Are the songs in AINT MISBEHAVIN' so un-universal that one couldnt fathom the idea of colour-blind casting that puppy? "
Obviously ideally in the future an all white (what a concept) Misbehavin would be possible. But it's not the same thing. The reason Dolly and Guys and Dolls were done all black was because, at the time, black actors simply could not be cast in the usual versions of them.
I actually think the concept of an all any race production, now, is something that needs to be killed and buried. But the argument also makes me think of people who complain about gay pride parades, and say "why don't we have straight pride parades".
Updated On: 7/24/11 at 08:36 PM
#81
Posted: 7/24/11 at 10:51pm
Point taken, Eric. My objection is that it makes the production nothing but tokenism, straight across the board. It doesnt add anything to the value of the work, and in some cases — like DOLLY and GUYS — it seriously verges on minstrel shows. I saw both of those, and some of the remarks by the audiences at both during intermission were cringe-worthy....
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#82
Posted: 7/25/11 at 4:09am
Color-blind casting for certain shows is a suspension of disbelief. That plays a very important role in ALL musicals, so... I think people just need to let it go. Who cares if there wasn't black people in France back then? So many wonderful BLACK actors have done amazing things with the roles in Les Mis.
"I will not cease from mental fight, nor shall my sword sleep in my hand: Till we have built Jerusalem in England's green and pleasant land."
#83
Posted: 7/25/11 at 11:42am
I have a question for some of you who are so virulently opposed to a black person playing a role in Les Miserables. Do you have the same objections to Sarah Bernhardt's, Judith Anderson's and Diana Venora's Hamlets?
#84
Posted: 7/25/11 at 1:50pm
Dude, you're making a sweeping generalization. It's not a black person playing Valjean. It's the core idea of an all-black production, which simply takes the concept of an all-white one and throws it just as far in the other direction. What does it gain the material? Would we get any especially new insights? And would you be just as content with an all-Asian production of FENCES?
See, there's the thing: when you push it to an extreme, it just comes out like a PC-inspired mess — and I'll add you're talking to someone who understands and appreciates the idea of political correctness in its purest form. But an all-black this or an all-gay that or an all-Bulgarian that over there? It's just stunt casting, on a production-wide scale. And then it stops being something of artistic merit and becomes a marketing tool and little else.
See, there's the thing: when you push it to an extreme, it just comes out like a PC-inspired mess — and I'll add you're talking to someone who understands and appreciates the idea of political correctness in its purest form. But an all-black this or an all-gay that or an all-Bulgarian that over there? It's just stunt casting, on a production-wide scale. And then it stops being something of artistic merit and becomes a marketing tool and little else.
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#85
Posted: 7/25/11 at 1:54pm
That's really the best question to ask the OP - WHY would you want to do it? What is there in this idea that makes you think it might open a new vista on this inherently 2-dimensional piece of light-FM-soap-opera?
Or are you just bored and asking the first thing that comes to mind, without filtering it through the "does this make an iota of sense" part of your brain?
Or are you just bored and asking the first thing that comes to mind, without filtering it through the "does this make an iota of sense" part of your brain?
#86
Posted: 7/25/11 at 1:59pm
I agree that it's tokenism. Everyone knows that if there's a white person available, that person is gonna be the best. To deny that is PC-drenched reverse racism!
Let them do their OWN shows! Leave the white roles alone!
Let them do their OWN shows! Leave the white roles alone!
#87
Posted: 7/25/11 at 2:26pm
Oh, I don't think you can call an ALL-black cast "tokenism" - tokenism would be one, maybe two actors of color playing characters that would probably be white.
#88
Posted: 7/25/11 at 2:34pm
Too many minorities kill artistic merit! Leave white people alone!
#89
Posted: 7/25/11 at 3:58pm
I love your sarcasm, Phyllis; however, if someone was being so acidic towards another racial group (any racial group that was not white) wouldn't that be racism? Double standard?
#90
Posted: 7/25/11 at 4:07pm
Racism against whites is a scourge like no other!
#91
Posted: 7/25/11 at 4:23pm
"however, if someone was being so acidic towards another racial group (any racial group that was not white) wouldn't that be racism?"
I don't think Phyllis is being acidic toward a racial group so much as toward you.
And I suppose anyone else who views color-blind casting as taking roles away from white people.
I don't think Phyllis is being acidic toward a racial group so much as toward you.
And I suppose anyone else who views color-blind casting as taking roles away from white people.
#92
Posted: 7/25/11 at 5:35pm
You're absolutely right, Phyllis; racism is ONLY white people hating on black people. What next, homophobia doesn't exist??
#93
Posted: 7/25/11 at 5:39pm
Of course racism exists between all racial groups.
But I've only ever heard white people objecting to color-blind casting.
But I've only ever heard white people objecting to color-blind casting.
#94
Posted: 7/25/11 at 5:43pm
To be fair, it's also white people hating on Asians. And Latinos. And Jews. Etc.
I kid, I kid. I agree with yeah. The white person's oppression is the worst! The very worst!
I kid, I kid. I agree with yeah. The white person's oppression is the worst! The very worst!
Updated On: 7/25/11 at 05:43 PM
#95
Posted: 7/25/11 at 5:59pm
No, Sean, with all due respect, I'm not making a sweeping generalization. In fact, you're the one jumping to conclusions. I already weighed in clearly on the question of an all-black Les Mis. I'm against it. There is no reason to mount an all-black version of a show. All black versions of musicals, generally, are anachronistic and silly. But so are all white versions. (of course if the show has a racial theme, and the characters are all specifically of a single race, I would find that to be an exception).
Instead, I was addressing the complaints of many on this thread that there is no room for black performers in the cast of Les Mis.
Instead, I was addressing the complaints of many on this thread that there is no room for black performers in the cast of Les Mis.
#96
Posted: 7/25/11 at 6:42pm
Reginald, when there's an All-White "The Wiz," you'll hear complaints.
Whenever the Oscar nominations roll around, there are TONS of complaints from other minority groups because not enough of this or that were nominated. Forget about the fact that, maybe there weren't any strong, award worthy performances...so trust me, complaints abound no matter the issue, no matter the race...
Whenever the Oscar nominations roll around, there are TONS of complaints from other minority groups because not enough of this or that were nominated. Forget about the fact that, maybe there weren't any strong, award worthy performances...so trust me, complaints abound no matter the issue, no matter the race...
#97
Posted: 7/25/11 at 6:53pm
The reason that color blind casting truly exists is because white is the default. For theatre as much as it is for film, television, and entertainment in general. If a race is not specified in a play or musical, the role becomes white. Color blind casting exists in order to challenge the default, not to rewrite shows in which race is inherent to the roles and specified in the book. If a role is specified in a book/script as being a minority, there's probably story-based reason for it.
So maybe it's not fair that a black man can play Hamlet, but a white one can't play Walter Lee Younger. But it's not an equal positioning to begin with. Whenever people start complaining about the fact that white people can't take minority-owned roles through the logic of color-blind casting, the same thing always comes to mind: check your privilege.
So maybe it's not fair that a black man can play Hamlet, but a white one can't play Walter Lee Younger. But it's not an equal positioning to begin with. Whenever people start complaining about the fact that white people can't take minority-owned roles through the logic of color-blind casting, the same thing always comes to mind: check your privilege.
#98
Posted: 7/25/11 at 6:55pm
A glance at YouTube shows there have been plenty of all-white productions of "The Wiz," but I imagine you mean major professional productions.
But at any rate, I didn't say all-white; I said color blind, which is what the thread has been about for a while.
But the fact that you can find three shows that call for a black lead and/or ensemble doesn't really change the simple fact that most casts are all white.
But at any rate, I didn't say all-white; I said color blind, which is what the thread has been about for a while.
But the fact that you can find three shows that call for a black lead and/or ensemble doesn't really change the simple fact that most casts are all white.
#99
Posted: 7/25/11 at 6:57pm
Also, I don't see how people of color complaining about their underrepresentation is similar to whites complaning about color-blind casting.
Unless your point is that whites are underrepresented in the theater.
Unless your point is that whites are underrepresented in the theater.
#100
Posted: 7/25/11 at 7:06pm
>> "If a role is specified in a book/script as being a minority, there's probably story-based reason for it."
I would happily refer you to the new production of TALES OF THE CITY, in which Jon is somehow changed from the tall, blond number in the books to a person of colour.
So the story-based reason for that would be?
I would happily refer you to the new production of TALES OF THE CITY, in which Jon is somehow changed from the tall, blond number in the books to a person of colour.
So the story-based reason for that would be?
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