Posted: 10/3/15 at 5:38pm
Add me to the list of Lin-Manuel Miranda and Tim Minchin fans.
Posted: 10/3/15 at 6:08pm
"Finest Lyricist on Broadway" will be Sheldon Harnick, when She Loves Me and Fiddler are playing concurrently.
Posted: 10/3/15 at 7:01pm
Oh man most of the time I find perfect rhymes in lyrics to be on the same level as poems that have rhyming as the only asset. Like cringe-worthy and existing only for the sake of the rhyme, not the meaning. Poetry doesn't have to rhyme perfectly or at all, and that's the same as how song lyrics should be, if they work to evoke what they aim to.
Posted: 10/3/15 at 7:13pm
darquegk said: "The "Miracle" lyrics don't rhyme in American or London English, but in the somewhat mush-mouthed UK Underworld accent that the show seems to adopt as its central dialect, it does. Look at the lyrics for Miss Honey- hers are measured, full of better rhymes and more standardized rhythms, as she is the most level-headed and "sane" of all the characters. The Wormwoods have asinine lyrics full of almost rhymes, completely absent rhymes or off-putting rhythms. Trunchbull's stuff is full of claustrophobic internal rhyme and rhythm, circling round itself looking for closure.
Minchin can ramble a bit, and lyricism isn't always the point of his lyrics, but to me and to many it's part of his appeal. If you listen to his solo work, it quickly becomes apparent that Beat poetry is his primary non-theatrical influence, and some of the Beat influence is still visible in his Matilda lyrics, though it seems notably diminished in his songs for Groundhog Day released so far.
"
darq, that was great post.
I feel like you and I are the board's Minchin devotees.
But I'm not out to convert anyone, people like what they like.
I've just found so much to love in his solo work that I want others to get the same rush I do when I hear "Cont", or "Prejudice", or "The Fence", or the aforementioned "Thank You God".
Also, his music is incredibly catchy. He's a piano virtuoso. Maybe we love him because we're composers.
Posted: 10/3/15 at 7:54pm
rjm516 said: "Oh man most of the time I find perfect rhymes in lyrics to be on the same level as poems that have rhyming as the only asset. Like cringe-worthy and existing only for the sake of the rhyme, not the meaning. Poetry doesn't have to rhyme perfectly or at all, and that's the same as how song lyrics should be, if they work to evoke what they aim to.
That's the whole point of using rhyme-- as a tool, to make points. Not just to rhyme for the sake of rhyme. So are you saying that Sondheim, Harnick, Ebb, Hammerstein, Loesser, Porter, Hart, and the lot shouldn't have used perfect rhymes? Because I don't think anything in their work cringe worthy-- OK, maybe in PIPE DREAM/ME AND JULIET or Porter's "Bianca" or some of Hart's sloppier lyrics.
I don't think a lot of you know what makes a good theatre lyric from your ass. Just sayin'. :)
And Smaxie, your post made me smile. Won't that be a swell winter-springtime!
Posted: 10/3/15 at 7:59pm
And, yes, to me "perfect rhymes" are nessesary for good musica theatre lyrics. Yes, characters can have different styles, but the rhymes must be there, not slant or almost. I cringe at forced rhymes - even in as great a show as Hamilton.
It's funny that the false/slant rhymes in HAMILTON didn't bother me. Even on the album. I just think that there's a difference between rap and musical theatre, even in a theatrical context, and that Miranda knows the difference.
Michael John alone writes some brilliant lyrics - the Quintet in Berdnarda Alba and the finale of Queen of the Mist are breathtaking.
GIANT is a masterpiece, too. That score and that show deserved so much more recognition than it got.
And Guettel has "Divindig Day" - one of the most perfect blends of character, lyrics, and music in contemporary theatre.
"Dividing Day" was one of the songs that made me want to write musicals.
And who can forget "Around the World", "Another Winter in a Summer Town", and "Tuesdays, Thursdays"? Musical theatre at its height.
GG was one of the shows that me me want to write musicals, and made me realize that the stories and shows I wanted to tell and write were still possible.
Posted: 10/3/15 at 8:06pm
jv92 said: "I don't think a lot of you know what makes a good theatre lyric from your ass. Just sayin'. :) "
That was needlessly rude. Art is always subjective, and lyric-writing of course falls under that category. What you may find to sound lyrical and pleasant might sound cheap and easy to someone else, and vice versa. Can't we all just agree to disagree without getting snarky about it?
Posted: 10/3/15 at 8:09pm
Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn. I love the pearl clutching on this board. Time to me to back on hiatus.
Updated On: 10/3/15 at 08:09 PM
Posted: 10/3/15 at 8:42pm
>And Smaxie, your post made me smile. Won't that be a swell winter-springtime! <
Thanks jv. Harnick never seems to get cited when "great lyrics" threads come up, but I think he is truly one of the greats. The craft is effortless. His lyrics never seem to strain. They are clean, smart, poetic, playful and exact, without a wasted or unnecessary word. There's great music in She Loves Me, but just think of that unbelievable string of character songs in Act 2 from "Try Me" all the way through "12 Days to Christmas" and the "Ice Cream" reprise. I mean, he deserves praise just for "his novel approach" in "Trip to the Library" alone...
Posted: 10/3/15 at 8:52pm
Tim Minchin has my vote.
Posted: 10/3/15 at 8:55pm
rjm516 said: "Oh man most of the time I find perfect rhymes in lyrics to be on the same level as poems that have rhyming as the only asset. Like cringe-worthy and existing only for the sake of the rhyme, not the meaning. Poetry doesn't have to rhyme perfectly or at all, and that's the same as how song lyrics should be, if they work to evoke what they aim to.
"
I don't think you understand the function of perfect rhyme in musical theater. Ideally, it isn't to be clever (except as a comic device in certain musical comedies) and it isn't a substitute for content. Perfect rhymes help the listener to understand what is being sung while dancers are dancing, sets are moving, etc. and so forth. Pop songs are meant to be heard many times via recordings, so perfect rhyming isn't as important and, with some writers, may seem to detract from the "authenticity" of lyrical expression..
Think of a tour de force trio such as "Now/Soon/Later" from A LITTLE NIGHT MUSIC. We wouldn't understand a word of the counterpoint if the rhymes weren't exact. (Ditto "Ladies Who Lunch" and "The Miller's Son", even though both are solos.)
***
On a different note, I can't tell whether the Miranda quotes above are supposed to be good or atrocious examples.
""would you like to join us, or stay mellow,
doing whatever the hell it is you do in Monticello?"
Yes, I only know HAMILTON from the recording and, yes, I understand that a certain amount of anachronism is the style of the show. But a couplet such as the above simply treads water. The perfect rhyme (which isn't really perfect since "hell" in the middle of the second line sounds like it is trying to rhyme with mellow/cello) isn't a substitute for content. Why not "Will you sit there and quiver like jello?" or "Stay at home, play a gay tarentello..."? These examples are off the top of my head, but I suspect so are many of LMM's lyrics.
I don't doubt that HAMILTON is a brilliant show overall, since so many here appear to love it. But the recording sounds like LMM threw up on his keyboard. IMO, obviously.
Posted: 10/3/15 at 8:58pm
Forgot to add, I agree that Sheldon Harnick is one of the greats. Though I'm not sure two shows from a half-century ago establish his credentials as a contemporary lyricist.
**
And for the record, art is NOT entirely subjective. Yes, there are elements that depend on individual taste, but every work of art is based on rules and conventions. An educated opinion shows an understanding of those conventions; an uneducated opinion does not. And, yes, conventions may change over time, which is a good reason to evaluate art based on the principles of its own day.
But whoever started this "art is subjective, therefore every opinion is equally valid" nonsense should be tarred and feathered.
Updated On: 10/3/15 at 08:58 PM
Posted: 10/3/15 at 9:07pm
Well, at 91, he's still working, currently revising The Rothschilds at the York. Another show where he dazzles.
Posted: 10/3/15 at 9:11pm
Gaveston is, as usual, correct in the need for perfect rhymes. If you read the introduction to Finishing the Hat, you can hear sound reasoning - and from the greatest lyricist/composer in the world!
JV, in the show, it didn't bother me as much, but the recording just makes them glaringly obvious to me. Which is a shame, because I really enjoyed the show. I just think the lyrics could have been a bit better.
And yes, Giant did deserve so much more - "Your Texas", "He Wanted a Girl", and "There Is a Child" are gorgeous. I'm very excited for First Daughter Suite on Tuesday!
Posted: 10/3/15 at 9:17pm
Smaxie said: "Well, at 91, he's still working, currently revising The Rothschilds at the York. Another show where he dazzles.
"
I certainly meant no disrespect. Even after the partnership with Bock broke up, Harnick continued to write opera libretti and translations, such as his haunting lyrics for the play with music, GHETTO.
I was merely responding to the idea that the revivals of FIDDLER and SHE LOVES ME were going to represent some sort of "come back". Harnick is still brilliant, but conventions have changed.
Posted: 10/3/15 at 9:37pm
GavestonPS said: "But whoever started this "art is subjective, therefore every opinion is equally valid" nonsense should be tarred and feathered."
Tar and feather me, then. I couldn't care less.
Posted: 10/3/15 at 10:44pm
I think people are forgetting that lyric writing is an art form unto itself. You must convey character in very few words and rhyme when doing so.
I've been listening to the OBC of Gigi lately, and I think Lerner is a great example of perfect rhymes thy don't convert character. "A Hymn to Him" is brilliant and a testament to his ability, but he seldom rose to the height in his other shows. In fact, he ought to be embarrassed of "The Earth and Other Minor Things" when "She Is Not Thinking of Me" is in the score.
Schwartz often sacrifices rhyme for character and that seldom works - even if he points out the error or creates his own words to make up for it. Oddly enough, when he is working on other's music, like on Rags or even "Colors of the Wind" his lyrics tend to be much better. The Baker's Wife has his best lyrics to his own music, but the show unfortunately has never worked.
Only when the purity of rhyme combines with charter can truly brilliant lyrics occur. Look at Herman, Sondheim, and Ebb - all brilliant lyrisists that perfectly convey character in their perfect rhymes. Yes, each has their exceptions, but as a whole, they create gorgeous lyrics.
The only other thing that makes sense with lyrics is to not rhyme at all, which can elicit wonderful results (such as Natasha, Pierre, and The Great Comet of 1812), but I'm sure can fail equally as well.
Writing good lyrics is an art form that has sort of dropped off the radar in recent years due to radio hits and "pop stars" turning to the stage. However, there is not one slant rhyme in a lyric that a perfect one world not make better. I am positive about that.
Posted: 10/3/15 at 11:44pm
Sally, did you mean "Schwartz sacrifices rhyme for character" or "Schwartz sacrifices character for rhyme"?
I think both may be true at various times, but the latter seems more of a problem for me.
Elfuhbuh, I didn't for a moment think YOU had started the "all art appreciation is subjective" adage, but one course in music, art, theater or literary appreciation will prove otherwise. Hell, Sally's post just above mine proves otherwise.
But there are questions of taste, of course. Sally is correct that THE BAKER'S WIFE never works. BUT FOR ME, the core 9 or 10 songs (i.e., those recorded on the American recording with Patti LuPone & Co.) are so brilliant, I will happily sit through almost any production of the show. But that's my taste. It doesn't change the fact that the show doesn't work (characters make decisions for no apparent reason other than that they suddenly change their minds) and the other songs (to be found on the British recording) are mostly mediocre.
As I said, I'll still go to hear Schwartz' best songs because I like them well enough to overlook the show's flaws. THAT'S SUBJECTIVE.
And it doesn't blind me to the OBJECTIVELY notable problems with the piece.
Posted: 10/3/15 at 11:55pm
I've been listening to the recording lately, and, Gaveston, the score (at least those on the LuPone recording) is brilliant. The book is never good, but I would love to see a production of it, no matter how much the show doesn't work.
I have to admit I'm not the most knowledgeable over Schwatz's work (I was basing most of my opinion on Wicked, Pippin, Rags, and The Baker's Wife). It always seemed to me it was character before lyric to me. Perhaps I should pay more attention to Magic Show, Godspell, and Children of Eden.
Posted: 10/4/15 at 1:35am
Lin Manuel Miranda, Stephen Schwartz, Lisa Kron, JRB, Robert Lopez.
Posted: 10/4/15 at 3:06am
Add me to the list of LaChiusa fans! GIANT, SEE WHAT I WANNA SEE, and WILD PARTY have some fantastic lyrics.
Posted: 10/4/15 at 5:24am
Anthony Drewe.
"To see a statue, dance like that you can't believe your eyes. You fear you've lost your marbles, though the thinker thinks you're wise. So you should hasten; call a mason, tell him what you've seen. He knows his craft; he'll think you're daft - but we'll know what you mean"
(From a pantomime musical of Jack the Beanstalk he and George did)
"If you write a poem then you have to rhyme it.
If you watch a race run then you want to time it.
If you see a church bell well you're gonna chime it.
If you see a beanstalk growing then you know you're going to climb it.
If you make a hot pot you should sage and thyme it.
If you're painting bare-wood then you have to prime it
If you want a fun show you should pantomime-it;
If you see a beanstalk growing then you know you're going to climb it.
So leave the earth below.
No fears of vertigo.
Though the sky is getting greyer
You could help to turn it blue.
When you reach the o-zone layer
There's a hole you can climb trough!
When you clean an engine then you must de-grime it
When you're mixing water when you oughta lime it
If you need a hero then you know that I'm it.
If you see a beanstalk growing then you know you're going to climb it."
Updated On: 10/4/15 at 05:24 AM
Posted: 10/4/15 at 9:15am
JRB and LMM stand out for me.
Posted: 10/4/15 at 3:00pm
Sally, what do you mean by an emphasis on "character before lyric"? Because that sounds like a description of Hammerstein and we usually praise him for writing in character rather than making every character a wit.
Schwartz, on the other hand, has no problem ripping the fabric of the dramatic illusion by having Galinda sing:
"Instead of dreary who you were , er, are,
We're gonna make you populer, er, lar."
Galinda, of course, thinks she is speaking to Elphaba and doesn't know she is singing in rhyme, so her point of view and character are sacrificed in that instance for a cheap laugh. This doesn't make Schwartz the worst lyricist in history, but it is the reason most seem to omit him from a list of the greats.
I DID see an Equity Waiver production of THE BAKER'S WIFE more than 20 tears ago and barely remember it, except for thinking Alix Korey sang it well. If you listen to the British cast album, you'll hear the problem. There's no real subplot, just a lot of "atmosphere" numbers in which the townspeople celebrate bread or complain about the lack of bread when their baker misses his wife too much to work. Not at all the same thing as a subplot, especially when the main plot is wife runs off with lover/wife finds lover lacking and (SPOILER) returns home.
Posted: 10/4/15 at 3:53pm
I think we are talking about the same thing, I'm just poorly articulating my thoughts. When I said "even if he points out the error or creates his own words to make up for it" I was actually bringing up that point Popular and other such points in Wicked. Cheap laughs or other such effects omit him from being a great lyricists (even though he frequently shows in "Colors of the Wind", Rags, and The Baker's Wife that he has the ability to write wonderful lines. He's just not consistent.
I have two different recordings of The Baker's Wife on the road (one with a vastly shortened "Meadowlark" and the other with it cut completely) and while the score is wonderful, it's kind of boring. Because the characters are never fully drawn (except in "Gifts of Love", "Meadowlark", "Where Is the Warmth?" and a few other scenes). The townspeople are, in particular, caricatures of people rather than actual people. And Genevieve just leaves and comes back with no actual reason to do so (except that she can't feel the "warmth", I suppose). But the score is wonderful, and the original recording is one of my favorites.
