Why Did Wicked Lose Best Musical? - Page 2

[icecreambenjamin]

Posted: 4/14/17 at 1:12pm

BroadwayConcierge said: "icecreambenjamin said: "Wicked [is] commercial nonsense.  There's nothing remarkable about it aside from it's production design."

That's pretty harsh and I would say rather untrue. I think it's easy to classify Wicked as commercial junk now that it's been running for almost 14 years, but the book and score itself is pretty wonderful. Needs tweaking, for sure, but I think it has a ton of heart.

I disagree.  I've seen it a couple times now with a variety of people and I always leave the theatre remarkably unmoved by it.  The score has always seemed dated to me and the lyrics range from passable to horrific.  The book, while decent, is a bit messy and in a year of better and original books (without source material) Wicked was not my favorite.  Yeah, For Good is a sweet song and all, but I would argue that it doesn't have any real organic emotion.  I sobbed throughout the entire second act of Caroline, or Change because it was real, raw, and deeply human.  Even Avenue Q had it's sincere moments such as For Now.  Wicked has always felt incredibly clinical and santized IMO.

 

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 4/14/17 at 1:28pm

Avenue Q was always a strong contender and Wicked was never in as strong a position as people seem to think it was.

This.  Wicked was the bigger show and more popular with the general public, but that doesn't always equate to a Tony win.  I remember when Avenue Q received the best reviews of a new musical that season and raves for its book and score.  The campaigning was really a clever extension on the show's concept.  To believe that Tony voters simply vote how their told by the productions themselves is just more of the same theoretical nonsense and conspiracy theories we get every year when fans of a show are mad that their show didn't win Best Musical.  The "tour conspiracy" was a big hit with bitter Wicked fans for a long time.  You don't need to search the Wicked season threads for examples of bitter conspiracy TONY SNUB theories.  You see it all the time.  The last one I can recall that appeared to hold a smidgen of truth in it would have been the season of Beauty and the Beast simply because the snobbery against Disney from the Broadway community was rather openly brazen.  I love Passion and felt it deserved to win, but at the time, there was so little love for the show in general, its win raised a lot of eyebrows.

[SueBee06]

Posted: 4/14/17 at 1:54pm

I guess I've always thought of it as a combination of a lot of the things mentioned above. Avenue Q got glowing reviews whereas Wicked got decidedly mixed. There was definitely a David vs Goliath impression at the time, and the Producers of Avenue Q nudged that along with the "Vote Your Heart" campaign. If I remember correctly, Wicked had already been doing really well at the box office, so the consensus was it didn't need the bump the TONY would give them. Additionally, it was something that everyone assumed would tour well without having that distinction. If it had toured, the thought was that Avenue Q would need that extra marketing tag. And Caroline, or Change was not something that would have toured well at all then, so lost the road vote.

It was an interesting year, that's for sure. I remember assuming that Wicked would win and being frigging thrilled that Avenue Q did. I even remember it taking a minute for my brain to catch up with the fact when they announced it.

[broadwaysfguy]

Posted: 4/14/17 at 2:44pm

ive always loved wicked and Avenue Q

its not often two outstanding musicals come out in the same year. we are lucky to have them both.

As a fan, I would have voted for Wicked. As a Tony voter, I would have  voted for Avenue Q as the more innovative and clever show....

PS the tony "people" have always hated Stephen Schwartz, so that probably didnt help... IMO he has composed some beautiful songs and strong scores, and I really liked the Pippin revival

[Kad]

Posted: 4/14/17 at 2:50pm

broadwaysfguy said: "PS the tony "people" have always hated Stephen Schwartz, so that probably didnt help... IMO he has composed some beautiful songs and strong scores, and I really liked the Pippin revival"

True, he's never won for Best Score... but that's because he was up against shows like A Little Night Music, Annie, and Les Mis. Not sure why you would think he's hated by the Tony "people."

 

Updated On: 4/14/17 at 02:50 PM

[jayinchelsea]

Posted: 4/14/17 at 3:12pm

The PR folk at AVENUE Q ran a brilliant campaign, and it rightfully won over WICKED, which is a loud, bloated musical loaded with Stephen Schwartz anthems (yes, I like "For Good" too, but not much else). AVENUE Q, may I remind everyone, is still running, albeit off-Broadway, after doing 2534 performances on Broadway, and it has already racked up several thousand more at New World Stages. So take that, WICKED!

 

 

 

 

[Soaring29]

Posted: 4/14/17 at 5:47pm

I like the sets and costumes a lot in Wicked- They're pretty faithful to the 1939 film and the world of Oz is a very strange and twisted one (especially in McGuire's novel), so they aren't going to necessarily be beautiful, although I feel like some of them are ravishing(Glinda's outfits, Elphaba's witch costume, and Fiyero's Act 2 suit). 

Still, the show isn't perfect- The music's orchestrations make the score sound like it was written in the 80's and some of the lyrics are mediocre, especially For Good. I'm Not That Girl is very relatable of course, but is kind of an awful song at the same time lol.  The  story could have been a little more complex and thought out, Act 2 mainly.  Like why does Elphaba have like no other support helping her fight the wizard? No matter how powerful she is, she would need support to actually fight the Wizard and be taken seriously. The whole rebel underground movement from the novel  could have been included in a different way.  I also wish Nessarose's character could have been more fleshed out. 

But the show is a major part of my childhood and you end up enjoying it none the less despite it's obvious flaws and the fact that it does feel a little dated now.

[djoko84]

Posted: 4/17/17 at 6:24am

Avenue Q is simply a better show. Point blank. Wicked has a lot of issues to it. Just because it's popular with the public does not equate to quality. Most who go to see it are tourists who don't know any better anyway. If it didn't have the Wizard of Oz theme it would've been gone a long time ago.

[bdn223]

Posted: 4/17/17 at 10:45am

The 2007 Documentary ShowBusiness: The Road to Broadway depicts the "upset" as it happened in 2004 as well as chronicles the the paths to Broadway of Wicked, Avenue Q, Caroline or Change, and Taboo. Its can be found on Youtube and is a very interesting watch.

[Jimmyb1969]

Posted: 4/17/17 at 12:38pm

They simply got it wrong. Avenue Q has not held up...kind of a one trick pony show and Wicked has aged so nicely. I just saw it a few months ago and found the production thrilling. I'm not sure anyone could sing one song from Avenue Q...maybe it sucks to be me? But think of Wicked. Defying Gravity, For good, Popular. Wicked was robbed the Tony...but laughing all the way to the bank with packed houses!

[marknyc]

Posted: 4/17/17 at 5:07pm

Soaring29 said: "Why did Wicked  lose?"

Because it's awful, and "Avenue Q" is one of the best musicals of this century.  Period.

 

"

 

[gypsy101]

Posted: 4/17/17 at 7:08pm

Stephen Schwartz has always been pretty hit or miss with his lyric-writing but he should be downright embarrassed of the lyrics for about 80% of Wicked.

[CT2NYC]

Posted: 4/17/17 at 7:22pm

Jimmyb1969 said: "They simply got it wrong. Avenue Q has not held up...kind of a one trick pony show and Wicked has aged so nicely. 

Calling AVENUE Q a one-trick pony show is ignoring the fact that many of the things that people love about it can also be found in Robert Lopez's OTHER show, THE BOOK OF MORMON. In my opinion, both shows are among the very best of the last few decades.

 

Updated On: 4/17/17 at 07:22 PM

[Jimmyb1969]

Posted: 4/17/17 at 7:31pm

Haha! We're not talking about Book of Mormon. Which is not a one trick pony show. Wicked wins hands down. It's a great show. Isn't showing any signs of slowing down and still feels fresh and relevant and beautiful. Simply cannot say that about the Q. Once the novelty wore off it faded. 

[gypsy101]

Posted: 4/17/17 at 7:43pm

do you know what a one trick pony is

[CT2NYC]

Posted: 4/17/17 at 7:46pm

Jimmyb1969 said: "Haha! We're not talking about Book of Mormon. Which is not a one trick pony show. Wicked wins hands down. It's a great show. Isn't showing any signs of slowing down and still feels fresh and relevant and beautiful. Simply cannot say that about the Q. Once the novelty wore off it faded. 

It faded for YOU, not for me, and not for many others. Also, coincidentally, AVENUE Q was prominently featured in the recent HBO series BIG LITTLE LIES. You might not be talking about it anymore, but there are people who think it's still quite relevant.

 

[BakerWilliams]

Posted: 4/17/17 at 8:19pm

A lot of people take it for granted that Caroline, or Change should have won best musical, but I saw it, and it sucked. I pretty much rolled my eyes continuously, and the score (especially the lyrics) was just abysmal.

Avenue Q was sharp, Wicked was a fun time (with an outstanding Kristen Chenoweth). Neither has to be bad for one to be better.

[BwayDreamer00]

Posted: 4/17/17 at 9:33pm

Wicked was the FIRST Broadway show I ever saw and even though I loved it, my mom who was sitting right next to me LOATHED it and the reasons she didn't like it were the reasons most people don't like it. And now that I've gotten to be in shows and see more shows I realize too why it didn't win back in 2003.

1)Its LONG and I mean LONGGGGGGGGGGGGG like woah and I'm not saying "long" shows can't be good or can't win but....it has to keep up and Wicked (a 2 hour and 45 minute show) doesn't really....

2) Okay I LOVE the music and let's be honest, Defying Gravity, and Popular are two iconic musical theater songs....I just think the book is dulllllllll like at first its like oooo cool were in Oz we see Glinda and Elphaba oooo aaaa but throw all these melodramatic elements into it and it becomes meh

3) As cool and amazing the BIG FLASHY sets and costumes are.....it relies to much on them I mean it kind of has too because its OZ for crying out loud and they did a GREAT job making Oz on stage  but its very style over substance throughout the show

4) To me Avenue Q is a much more superior show to Wicked and 10000000000000% more clever, witty, and thought provoking compared to Wicked and yes Avenue Q IS a parody and a comedy but at lest its FUN and interesting

5) Finally if I was a NYC theater critic in 2003 I'd give this show a pretty mixed lukewarmish review....the talent is amazing, the production elements (set, lighting, costumes, orchestra) is 10 out 10 the score is fun and the story is interesting....its just the LENGTH and BOOK that make it bleh

*****BUT if you have never seen Wicked.....GO SEE IT when I saw it it BLEW me away go see it!!!! It's not an AMAZING musical (at all) but its cool man! 

[Kad]

Posted: 4/17/17 at 10:57pm

BakerWilliams said: "A lot of people take it for granted that Caroline, or Change should have won best musical, but I saw it, and it sucked. I pretty much rolled my eyes continuously, and the score (especially the lyrics) was just abysmal."

 

Oh, well, since you saw it, I guess I'll be revising my opinion of the show's merits.

[Valentina3]

Posted: 4/17/17 at 11:06pm

^ you got me giggling, Kad. 

[mailhandler777]

Posted: 4/17/17 at 11:47pm

I've seen Wicked more than most people have. I never saw Avenue Q so I can't tell you why it won best musical. 

 

Wicked consistently makes over a million on Broadway every week plus the tour is in the best shape I've ever seen and has been selling out in every city it goes to. 

 

So while Avenue Q may have won the Tony Wicked is still out there and shows no sign of slowing down anytime soon.

[haterobics]

Posted: 4/18/17 at 4:33am

mailhandler777 said: "I've seen Wicked more than most people have."

Twice?

[brdway411]

Posted: 4/18/17 at 5:19am

I have slept through it, TWICE. AVE Q better show.... Look at Matilda and Kinky Boots. One was great in England and then Americans voted. And Kinky was an English movie. 

 

BTW, I saw Matildon't  in London, before it came here it sucked there as well. 

 

[brdway411]

Posted: 4/18/17 at 5:19am

I have slept through it, TWICE. AVE Q better show.... Look at Matilda and Kinky Boots. One was great in England and then Americans voted. And Kinky was an English movie. 

 

BTW, I saw Matildon't  in London, before it came here it sucked there as well. 

 

[djoko84]

Posted: 4/18/17 at 5:49am

haterobics said: "mailhandler777 said: "I've seen Wicked more than most people have."

Twice?

 

"

This was great shade.