Posted: 4/14/17 at 2:01am
I know this must have been brought up like a billion times in the past and if you have old threads to redirect me to, please do, but I'm wondering: Why did Wicked lose? I don't buy that it was the cheeky campaign that the Avenue Q people did that is the sole reason for it losing. Was it just not the big deal that it was destined to be at that time?
Posted: 4/14/17 at 2:15am
Cause it really is crap, awful dull boring first act, barely passable second act
Posted: 4/14/17 at 2:18am
It lost because more Tony voters that year thought Avenue Q was a better show and voted accordingly. To get a definitive answer, you'd have to talk to them. But I'm sure plenty of people here will be happy to have a discussion of this for the umpteenth time.
Posted: 4/14/17 at 2:29am
Wicked never lost the Tony. It just didn't win.
Posted: 4/14/17 at 2:37am
You know No Stephen Schwartz musical has won best musical. And the British hatted both Wicked and Pippin, He is truly an awful composer. I hate his music. I do feel Caroline and Change which won the Olivier Award should of also won the Tony. The Public Theatre actually knows what its doing.
Posted: 4/14/17 at 3:03am
UncleCharlie said: "It lost because more Tony voters that year thought Avenue Q was a better show and voted accordingly. To get a definitive answer, you'd have to talk to them. But I'm sure plenty of people here will be happy to have a discussion of this for the umpteenth time.
If you have links to old threads, feel free to give them to me, lol.
Posted: 4/14/17 at 3:12am
Soaring29 said: "UncleCharlie said: "It lost because more Tony voters that year thought Avenue Q was a better show and voted accordingly. To get a definitive answer, you'd have to talk to them. But I'm sure plenty of people here will be happy to have a discussion of this for the umpteenth time.
If you have links to old threads, feel free to give them to me, lol.
I don't have them at my finger tips. I'd have to do a search. But I wouldn't want to deprive you of that pleasure. Sometimes, doing a search on google adding Broadwayworld to your search phrase yields better results than using the BWW search engine which is hit or miss. But all you're going to get are more people like yourself speculating on what the voter's motivations were, advancing a wide variety of theories and conspiracies that occurred to "deny Wicked its rightful victory". You're never going to get a definitive answer.
Posted: 4/14/17 at 3:20am
Oh, I know- It's all good :) I was just asking in case you had any recent ones.
Posted: 4/14/17 at 4:01am
Does it matter ? Wicked has well and truly left Avenue Q in the dust in long term success.
Posted: 4/14/17 at 4:14am
There is no old thread that will tell you why Tony voters did anything. They don't come here to talk about their thoughts then or now.
But Wicked was not even reviewed well at the time.
The NY Times summed up its review with: "''Wicked'' does not, alas, speak hopefully for the future of the Broadway musical."
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/31/movies/theater-review-there-s-trouble-in-emerald-city.html
Posted: 4/14/17 at 4:44am
It got mixed reviews. But some loved it
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/life/theater/2003-10-30-wicked_x.htm
http://ew.com/article/2003/11/21/wicked-3/
Posted: 4/14/17 at 4:46am
Caroline or Change deserved it fair and square. It had some of the best songs I have ever heard. Clearly amazing . Not sure why Avenue Q got it!
Posted: 4/14/17 at 7:07am
Same reason Hilary lost the election. Wicked was considered a slam dunk for the Tony but Avenue Q ran a better campaign and strategy and swung many their way in the days before the vote. Sometimes the "best" doesn't win.. I enjoyed both very much, with Wicked being the greater production but still thinking about Avenue Q to this day. I think the voters got it right..
Posted: 4/14/17 at 8:18am
https://forum.broadwayworld.com/readmessage.php?thread=1097893
I asked this very same question recently, Soaring29! 
Posted: 4/14/17 at 8:29am
Le Bete said: "Caroline or Change deserved it fair and square. It had some of the best songs I have ever heard. Clearly amazing . Not sure why Avenue Q got it!
That's entirely a matter of opinion, of course. Something as subjective as this cannot, by its very nature, be "fair and square."
Posted: 4/14/17 at 8:52am
I've never understood the hatred for Stephen Schwartz, other than that he got a rep as the "second-rate Sondheim" in the mid-1970s. But I'm sure there was a time in the 1920s or early 1930s when Richard Rodgers was considered the "second-rate Kern". And, now, after decades of ALW, we ought to agree that even second-rate Sondheim is pretty damn fine! I think there are some brilliant songs in WICKED.
That being said, however, it's a mistake to dismiss AVENUE Q as children's theater or as merely a "college show" (despite the obvious influence of the BMI workshop to anyone who has studied in that environment). It is quite clever in places and can be moving to anyone who has moved from college to NYC; i.e., most Tony voters, I suspect.
Posted: 4/14/17 at 11:43am
There was a bias back then. It may still exist.
The bias was that overproduced musicals were out and simplicity was in. Wicked (and I am a fan) has big sets, big costumes, big everything. This bias led us to a slew of in my opinion dull Musicals: Once, Fun Home for example Two shows I never understood.
Avenue Q was the little show that could.
It also launched a Tony Campaign .."vote your heart".
Avenue Q did touch people's heart in so many ways.."Find your purpose" "What do you do with a BA in English" "For now." I remember being very touched and could relate to the plight of those characters albeit puppets. It was fresh and it was new.
I remember being moved and fell in love with ths show back then.
Avenue Q was David in the Tony Votes Eyes. Wicked was Goliath. Wicked did not get the best reviews either.
Both in my opinion were excellent musicals but I think even back then, as much as I love Wicked, I would have voted my heart and voted for Avenue Q
Posted: 4/14/17 at 11:54am
I loved Avenue Q. From the very first line, "What can you do with a BA in English," I could relate all too well. I really adored that show. I thought the songs were clever, charming, catchy. I think I saw it 3 times, I think it deserved the Tony.
Wicked was meh, a mediocre musical with mediocre sets and music. I do not get the appeal. I did see it with a close girlfriend, so I guess I liked seeing a musical about female friendship. It may have even passed the Bechdel test. I can't remember.
Updated On: 4/14/17 at 11:54 AM
Posted: 4/14/17 at 12:33pm
The producers of Avenue Q lobbied the Tony voters, especially the members involved in touring, with the premise that it would be a big tour item and in their best interests. It edged out Wicked. Ironically, the producers then turned their back on the tour operators and took a deal with Steve Wynn in Las Vegas where he built a theater for them and it became a sit down show at the Wynn that lasted awhile. Wicked, however, may run for ever or until the world stops manufacturing teenage girls.
Posted: 4/14/17 at 12:42pm
I really didn't like Avenue Q at all, but it was very original and consistent in its originality. I really liked Caroline, although I actually thought the score was weak.
I loved Wicked, but I didn't (and still don't) actually think it was very good. The direction was awful, there were a number of scenes that stopped the action entirely, and did the sets and costumes really have to be that ugly? On the other hand, the basic story was compelling, the score included 5 or 6 terrific songs that people LOVED, Idina and Kristin were wonderful, etc.
I have always thought that the inconsistency in Quality in Wicked lost it the Tony. Went from really excellent / outstanding (Popular, Defying Gravity, the big number in the Emerald City led by Fiyero, For Good...intermittent cleverness focused on the basic conceit of the show) to terrible (most of the scenes with Madame Horrible and the Wizard, talky and / or mediocre songs).
Of course, it may also be that they simply thought the win for Avenue Q would increase the likelihood that it would be successful on the road, which Wicked was by now guaranteed...of course, that was an entirely different story.
Posted: 4/14/17 at 12:47pm
Caroline, or Change was the clear actual Best Musical of that season. It's a brilliant original musical with a great score, great book, great cast, and great direction. I believe that if we were to have that Tony race today, Caroline would be the winner. I love Avenue Q and I'm happy that it won over Wicked (which is a mediocre musical with a lush production and a pretty good cast), but Caroline, or Change was an example of true, brilliant, classic theatre.
Wicked lost because it's commercial nonsense. There's nothing remarkable about it aside from it's production design. Avenue Q at least had a soul.
I think the truly ridiculous Tony race was the Spamalot over The Light in the Piazza and Spelling Bee year.
Posted: 4/14/17 at 12:57pm
icecreambenjamin said: "Wicked [is] commercial nonsense. There's nothing remarkable about it aside from it's production design."
That's pretty harsh and I would say rather untrue. I think it's easy to classify Wicked as commercial junk now that it's been running for almost 14 years, but the book and score itself is pretty wonderful. Needs tweaking, for sure, but I think it has a ton of heart.
Updated On: 4/14/17 at 12:57 PM
Posted: 4/14/17 at 1:08pm
I think the narrative of Wicked being the slam-dunk winner overthrown in an upset is seriously flawed. It was a stronger year for musicals than people seem to remember, with awards being given to contenders all across the board (Wicked for its scenery and costumes, Wonderful Town for choreo, acting awards given to Jackman, Rose, Cerveris, and Menzel, Ave Q snagging the writing awards, and the revival of Assassins picking up the plurality of awards overall).
Avenue Q was always a strong contender and Wicked was never in as strong a position as people seem to think it was.
Posted: 4/14/17 at 1:12pm
BroadwayConcierge said: "icecreambenjamin said: "Wicked [is] commercial nonsense. There's nothing remarkable about it aside from it's production design."
That's pretty harsh and I would say rather untrue. I think it's easy to classify Wicked as commercial junk now that it's been running for almost 14 years, but the book and score itself is pretty wonderful. Needs tweaking, for sure, but I think it has a ton of heart.
I disagree. I've seen it a couple times now with a variety of people and I always leave the theatre remarkably unmoved by it. The score has always seemed dated to me and the lyrics range from passable to horrific. The book, while decent, is a bit messy and in a year of better and original books (without source material) Wicked was not my favorite. Yeah, For Good is a sweet song and all, but I would argue that it doesn't have any real organic emotion. I sobbed throughout the entire second act of Caroline, or Change because it was real, raw, and deeply human. Even Avenue Q had it's sincere moments such as For Now. Wicked has always felt incredibly clinical and santized IMO.
