Lloyd Webber vs. Puccini- Page 3

[best12bars]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 1:36pm

"Also, while this is obviously just an opinion, I'd venture a guess and say that most people believe that Bernstein, Puccini (or even Sondheim) are superior to Webber as composers."

This is the part I find the most ridiculous and a fairly immature guideline. So because a composer or songwriter hasn't won some fictionalized "Homecoming Queen" popularity contest in your eyes, he's obviously guilty, and because others "rule the school" they are exempt from such accusations?

Do you even hear how trite that sounds?

Updated On: 9/5/11 at 01:36 PM

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 1:48pm

I don't think that's exactly what he said.

[best12bars]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 1:51pm

"I'm not necessarily condoning the act of stealing melodies, however, I'd say that based upon their entire body of work, there is some sort of "justification" for composers like Puccini, Bernstein, and Sondheim to quote/borrow once in a while."


I disagree, Reg. He did say it. He's giving them a pass because he likes them better. They are "superior" composers, as he says in his post. And he's not the only one to do that.

Updated On: 9/5/11 at 01:51 PM

[James885]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 1:55pm

I agree completely with Best12bars. I've often been amazed at the venom directed at Webber, not necessarily just on this board, but in other places at well. I'm not saying the man is a saint (cause he certainly isn't), but some of the hate generated towards him is baffling. It's like some people feel the need to tear Webber down in favor of enshrining more 'respectable' composers a la Sondheim, Copeland, Bernstein, etc.

Updated On: 9/5/11 at 01:55 PM

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 1:58pm

Ok.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 2:37pm

Anyway, getting back to my original post, about the aria from La Fanciulla del West, is there anyone who DOESN'T think this section at 0:42 sounds EXACTLY like "The Music of the Night"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64wUWdKgKU4w#t=00m041s

Is there anyone at all who says there's no similarity or that any similarity is just accidental?

[metropolis10111]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 3:08pm

yes from :42-:44 it sounds Just the same.... 2 seconds... but then again those notes sound the same in a lot of different pieces... isn't' your ax ground enough by now? I guess since if you go in the search function you will find a thread just like this.... what is the point of it here?

OMG guys the Overture to Merrily We Roll Along is 3:56 seconds long. The song We Have All Been Blind from Phantom of the Opera is ALSO 3:56 seconds long... I guess Webber is ripping things off AGAIN!!!

[ClapYo'Hands]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 3:21pm

If Sondheim and Bernstein are such wonderful, respectable composers, shouldn't they know better than to steal?

[Scripps2]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 3:21pm

"Marry me Matt :)"

That's the third proposal he's had on this site this year!!!

[best12bars]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 3:26pm

Yes, PJ is absolutely right. We must all steer this thread back to the original subject of "Here's another reason not to like Andrew Lloyd Webber."

He is the BWW police, after all, and never goes off-topic (or in this case to a PARALLEL TOPIC) himself. And police or authority figures never stoop to the level of "profiling," do they? Of course not.

"This Andy Webber guy appears to be guilty of something, therefore he is."

Updated On: 9/5/11 at 03:26 PM

[PalJoey]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 3:35pm

What in Sondheim's name are you talking about?

[best12bars]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 3:41pm

Figure it out. You're smart enough.

[best12bars]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 4:07pm

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you "Sunday in the Park With George," written in ... 1978 by Steve Reich.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuJCp9wsaj8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qE13q-AWNDk

[musikman]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 4:08pm

James: On a purely enjoyment level, I do happen to like much of Webber's work. I think Evita is brilliant, and enjoy various parts of his other shows (Phantom and. On a more complex level (and I'm sure I'll get the snob comment here) of music in terms of structure, dramatic usage, atmosphere, etc...for me it doesn't quite match the level of a Bernstein. I guess I'll compare Webber to ice cream. It's delicious, fun, and satisfying, but not as deep or fulfilling as, say, a nice healthy chicken dinner with brown rice and vegetables. (That all sounded really weird...)


Best, I understand what you're saying, but I wouldn't go as harsh as that. In a smaller example, the class genius has no right to steal answers/work from someone else just because they've proven before that they are a genius. In fact, people might even be more shocked to find that they would, or even need to steal answers. I think maybe it's more of a "is this a habitual thing that they do?"

PJ had no idea about the Fanciula quote, and using his own words, was appalled by it. Webber in the past has been known to do that often throughout his music. Therefore, to some it feels like the next in the line of what he has already done in the past. I don't know what his reaction would be if Sondheim had done the same thing. My guess *please don't kill me PJ!!! O:)* is that he wouldn't be quite as appalled.

Perhaps this is all just the way things are. Is it right? Probably not, but that's how it is.

[best12bars]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 4:19pm

musikman, I agree with what you've said. I think one of the reasons the "class genius," as you put it, is compelled to steal and/or borrow from others is because of the pressure placed on them to deliver. It's not a need to climb to the top. It's a need to stay there and a "fear of falling." It can create a sense of desperation as hungry as that of someone who will do anything to rise to the next level.

And I have no problem with people preferring one composer over another. I just have a problem when they disguise their bias in an "educational thread" and won't entertain discouraging words about anyone they happen to like.

The "white people" are exempt. We're only talking about what's wrong with the "black people" in this thread.

(That's a metaphor, for those of you struggling along.)

Updated On: 9/5/11 at 04:19 PM

[PalJoey]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 4:25pm

Well, if I went to a Steve Reich concert and heard the pieces B12 just linked, no, I wouldn't be appalled.

(Frankly, they don't sound anything like Sunday in the Park.)

But my experience of the Puccini opera was interrupted the 3 or 4 times that the love theme was played because all I could hear was "Turn your face away from the (something) light of day..."

It was funny at first, then bizarre, and finally completely distracting.

Nothing like those Steve Reich links.

Here, click on this again, close your eyes--you'll think you're listening to the Italian cast album of Phantom:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64wUWdKgKU4w#t=00m041s

[best12bars]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 4:29pm

To this day, Sondheim listens almost exclusively to modern classical music. He is most influenced by Ravel and Rachmaninoff, secondarily by Prokofiev, Copland and Britten. Near the turntable in his study on a recent day lay the discs of David Del Tredici's 'Final Alice' and Steve Reich's 'Music for a Large Ensemble.' Sondheim does not listen to much popular music but, tellingly, the group that has most impressed him is the Talking Heads, probably the most musically venturesome rock group today.

http://www.nytimes.com/books/98/07/19/specials/sondheim-words.html

The prejudiced see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear ...

[Scripps2]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 4:43pm

Sondheim's 8 choices of music he wouldn't want to be without when interviewed in 1980 and again in 2000...

Interesting to see which figure on both lists.



Second interview downloadable. Updated On: 9/5/11 at 04:43 PM

[kdogg36]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 4:56pm

Is there anyone at all who says there's no similarity or that any similarity is just accidental?

There's definitely a similarity and I doubt it's random, especially given ALW's admiration for and knowledge of Puccini. I'd say it's probably "accidental" in the sense of "not on purpose" - I doubt he consciously copied the music. But not "accidental" in the sense that they're certainly related by more than random variation.

I doubt I'd award damages for it if I were on a jury, though. It's only a few seconds, and then the music diverges. It's not like the pervasive similarity between "He's So Fine" and "My Sweet Lord," to cite a famous example (and thus one of the few I know about!).

[musikman]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 5:07pm

Those links you posted of Steve Reich seem to be a lot more similar rhythmically than melodically to "Color and Light."


P.S. I didn't think I'd ever see someone bring up Steve Reich on these boards. :)

[best12bars]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 5:17pm

Yes, there would be no successful law suits with the Reich clips I posted.

But there should be no question (unless you want to plug your ears) about the musical influence of the "vamp" to use a theatre term. I think you can go as far as the orchestration, too, and chord structure. But law suits deal with melodies and lyrics (primarily), and there wouldn't be a case.

My point was to show how EVERYBODY, including the most anointed who are regularly given free passes, are "heavily influenced," shall we say, by many things.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 7:26pm

"Two beats of double sixteenth notes is all they share in common. They're not even the same intervals."

It's two bars, and they are.

I just listened to both. It's not two bars and not the same intervals. The Batman theme song just keeps repeating the same two beats for four bars and then starts modulating. Damned for All Time uses a similar structure for the first two beats with different intervals, then changes. It's one bar that vamps then alternates with a one-bar tag that repeats before the vocals kick in.

I'm not necessarily condoning the act of stealing melodies, however, I'd say that based upon their entire body of work, there is some sort of "justification" for composers like Puccini, Bernstein, and Sondheim to quote/borrow once in a while.

"Condoning" and "justification" sound pretty much the same in that sentence. Besty pretty much covered all the same ground I was going to cover. But yes, I understood it exactly the same way Besty interpreted.

Anyway, getting back to my original post, about the aria from La Fanciulla del West, is there anyone who DOESN'T think this section at 0:42 sounds EXACTLY like "The Music of the Night"

Yes, there are almost two full bars that sound the same. I have absolutely no clue as to whether it was intended or accidental.

That's the third proposal he's had on this site this year!!!

Wait...third? I must have missed one.

[metropolis10111]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 7:50pm

Funny how Pal Joey doesn't hear ANYTHING from Sunday in those links... maybe he should stop listening to so much ALW and broaden his pallet.

Odd how when the tables are tuned the ear 'aint so keen or is that Sondheim INTENDED his audience to know the Steve Reich piece so it was a pastiche
Updated On: 9/5/11 at 07:50 PM

[chewy5000]

Posted: 9/5/11 at 8:55pm

Clearly Steve Reich is George!

[bk]

Posted: 9/6/11 at 1:26am

"The first six notes of "Candy Man" and "No One is Alone" are NOT identical, they are different rhythmically."

You can't have it both ways, pal. They are the exact same six notes - if you want to play they are different rhythmically, then all the other examples cited here go in the toilet. Memory is NOTHING like Bolero in feel, tempo, or rhythm, and yet apparently it's okay to cite that ridiculous example, right?