Overrated Classic Shows- Page 3

[bta212]

Posted: 1/4/05 at 10:29am

Thanks, Craig. I was wondering when someone would notice the paradox in this thread.

Now, if people want to debate which shows qualify as classic.....


And, um, Marc....? "Vomiticious"?

[Unmasked05]

Posted: 1/4/05 at 10:35am

To me the most overrated Classic Shows are
Oklahoma
My Fair Lady ( I never finish watching the movie)
Annie Get Your Gun
The Music Man

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 1/4/05 at 10:35am

Just to clarify, dears, before you get your panties in too much of a bunch, my saying CAROUSEL was a joke for Magruder -- he knew it, I knew it, Priest knew it -- but, I take it you didn't know it.

Now you do.

A joke.

OK?

And WHERE did anyone refer to WSS as overrated? Huh? If you'll notice, my statement was in response to CastAlbumFan saying that
Fiddler was the first major show in which the staging and choreography were more acclaimed than the score. I was pointing out that that had happened seven years earlier with the critical reception to WSS -- Robbins' staging and choreography were far more acclaimed than the brilliant Bernstein/Sondheim score which apparently went flying over the heads of several critics and Broadway observers at the time and received lukewarm notices. THAT was my point. Not that the score was overrated or less than genius, but that it wasn't universally appreciated when it debuted (which is a fact).

OK?

Clear enough, now?

So to repeat, in MargoChanning's opinion, Carousel and WSS are NOT overrated -- repeat, NOT overrated.

Okay?

Understand now?

Feel better?

You can now return to your regularly scheduled programming.....

[Craig]

Posted: 1/4/05 at 10:38am

Margo-

I know YOU were kidding. More disturbing are those that weren't :)

Unmasked - Ok, so you think those shows are overrated. Why? What definition are you using and how do those shows fit into that defintion.

and to everyone reading.. It's so easy to just start picking shows we don't care for without applying a DEFINITION. Without criteria, shoving shows into a list is easy and we can have countless threads on the subject (not just this one).

For example - Ken M has VERY specific criteria for shows that made it into his "Not Since Carrie" book. Based on his criteria (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) it's hard to argue HIS categorizations of musicals.

Back onto the subject of this thread in particular - perhaps Marc is right - perhaps these are shows the individual just "doesn't care for" even though they are considered classics. A very different category than "overrated"

again.. my .02

Updated On: 1/4/05 at 10:38 AM

[Marc Shaiman]

Posted: 1/4/05 at 10:40am

A person who goes by the name UnMasked05 writes

"To me the most overrated Classic Shows are
Oklahoma
My Fair Lady ( I never finish watching the movie)
Annie Get Your Gun
The Music Man"

<----gun to head.

Before I shoot, pray tell me, "Overrated compared to...what???

[bta212]

Posted: 1/4/05 at 10:43am

Wow--I'm really surprised to see that MargoChanning thinks Carousel was over-rated. Wait 'till I tell everyone.....

[kissmycookie]

Posted: 1/4/05 at 10:57am

I think I just vomited in my mouth while reading this...

Posted: 1/4/05 at 11:01am

The mention of "Hello Dolly" brings to mind a point that was made by William Goldman in his book "The Season": He talks about "Dolly" being the biggest hit of the day and then points out that the title song (and undeniable signature moment of the show) is completely and utterly false. Dolly is a widow from Yonkers who has probably never set foot in the Harmonia Gardens and yet, the first act finale is her grand entrance, greeting every waiter, every socialite, every millionaire by name. A poor widow from Yonker is the toast of New York Society? Funny, no one ever mentioned Dolly's wild past on 14th street before now. And yet, everyone accepts this bizarre production number and the show rolls on.

That is the kind of thing that I think of when someone speaks of an "Overrated classic"-- a huge gaping flaw that somehow has been overlooked by years of adoring fans. Unless it's just such a great song and scene that no one wants to be a party pooper?

[kissmycookie]

Posted: 1/4/05 at 11:12am

shouldn't that be blamed on Thornton Wilder?

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 1/4/05 at 11:15am

Merrick originally offered the direction of Hello Dolly to Hal Prince, who had directed Wilder's The Matchmaker, and he declined, saying, "I couldn't for the life of me see why those waiters were singing how glad they were to have her back where she belonged, when she'd never been there in the first place."

Updated On: 1/4/05 at 11:15 AM

[megannn33]

Posted: 1/4/05 at 11:30am

cats... cats... and ... cats. I know that's a show for children and that's probably why it was on Broadway for so long (parents probably told their children "If you're good we'll take you to Cats" or something like that), but I hated that show as a child. I really never understood how any of my friends could enjoy that show. Ick. Updated On: 1/4/05 at 11:30 AM

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 1/4/05 at 11:39am

Hello Dolly is the one overrated classic I could think of with Mame just behind it. I understand and respect both shows for their respective star turns, but I have always found both to be somewhat weak in their scores including the Herman trademark of endlessly repeating choruses with virtually no end in sight. Mame features a better book, but like R&H, Herman banked on his Dolly success and followed the exact same formula to give Broadway a new star in a variation of an earlier success.

I understand both shows are considered classics for being popular and as vehicles for their respective stars, but other than that, I never really saw either as landmark shows.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 1/4/05 at 11:56am

When Cats opened. It was something completely new and different on Broadway. Something many people on this board moan about when discussing the current state of Broadway, yet ignore when discussing past shows in historical context. It had already been well-received in London and by it's Broadway arrival, it's reputation had preceded the show. Cats featured costume and sets designs as well as a concept that was unlike anything in musical theatre. Not only was it entirely unique, but it was accessible to all ages. Lloyd Webber had introduced himself with Joseph, which had a respectable run, then the highly controversial JCS which flopped, but produced a couple of hit songs, and followed with the well-respected and well-received Evita. Cats was a brilliant move in musical theatre for the time, introduced a major standard song in the musical theatre canon and immediately after its opening success on Broadway, became an international sensation. Like A Chorus Line, the show became legendary both in London and on Broadway, and was one of the expected shows to see for every tourist in NYC. That is why it ran for so long. Phantom of the Opera will surpass Cats and expect to see Mamma Mia around for a long time.

The question is, after Rent and The Lion King, what will be the next long-running American musical? My money is on Hairspray. I think it will do well in London and survive replacements better than The Producers. Wicked has a shot, but its score may not be as universally embraced as Hairspray. The American 60s sound is HUGE in Europe, Australia and Japan.

[Marc Shaiman]

Posted: 1/4/05 at 12:07pm

as I wipe the puke from my chin...

I must say that unless I have imagined it, in "HELLO DOLLY" (perhaps not Thorton Wilder's "The Matchmaker" on which it is based-Oh My God, a musical that is based on something else-how dare they!) the character Dolly is CLEARLY a matchmaker from NYC, who, when her husband Ephraim was alive, often frequented The Harmonia Gardens where she was the toast of the town. When her beloved husband passed away, she withdrew but is now, as the musical unfolds, realizing it is time to re-enter life before (as she puts it) the parade passes by.

so that post about it not making sense is beyond comprehension...I guess William Goldman was right when he also wrote his famous quote (albiet about Hollywood) "no one knows anything"...and he never read the threads on BWW!!!

All I know is, when I saw the last revival to play on Broadway, when the HELLO DOLLY number was in full swing, my friend Adam and I looked at each other and both of our faces were DROWNING in tears, to be in a theatre and be experiencing that kind of joy. I will NEVER forget it.

If any of you out there haven't had that kind of moment, I pray you do someday. Updated On: 1/4/05 at 12:07 PM

[SueleenGay]

Posted: 1/4/05 at 12:13pm

Marc, I was just about to post the same thing about Dolly's re-enterance to HG. It always made perfect sense to me.
And Matt, what a great post about CATS. It is a show that I lothe, but your post made great sense.

[Marc Shaiman]

Posted: 1/4/05 at 12:15pm

by the way SueLeen, your icon is HYSTERICAL

[SueleenGay]

Posted: 1/4/05 at 12:16pm

Thanks.

[Rathnait62]

Posted: 1/4/05 at 12:16pm

Wait - this is actually a serious thread? Holy crap, people.

[eslgr8]

Posted: 1/4/05 at 12:32pm

On a more serious note, I think the problem for many of you lies in the fact that most of the shows mentioned (Music Man, Oklahoma, Guys and Dolls, etc.) are nowadays seen mostly in high school, community theater, and mediocre regional productions. Oklahoma usually bores the socks off me, but when I saw the Trevor Nunn/Hugh Jackman version on DVD, I was enthralled. Same mostly negative feelings for Guys and Dolls until I saw a 99-seat theater production in North Hollywood last year with a mostly Equity cast headed by Tony nominated Jane Lanier. The production earned deserved raves and the run was extended due to huge audience demand. It was AMAZING! In the last few years I've seen Carousel twice and found it somewhat dated and dull, but the Nicholas Hytner revival from London which played L.A. in the mid 90s was one of the most thrilling experiences I've ever had in a zillion years of attending musicals. Would that I had been able to see the British National Theatre production of South Pacific a few years ago in London. Listening to the cast CD gives me some idea of what this overdone show can be if approached with imagination and talent. So I say...Give the "overrated" classics the kind of top notch productions they deserve, with directors who can bring out all the genius that was part of their creation, and then decide whether these shows are overrated or not.

Posted: 1/4/05 at 12:41pm

Sorry Marc I didn't mean to touch a nerve-- and don't get me wrong I've always loved "Dolly" (And even loved the film when I saw it as a wee small boy) but when you look at the script there is nothing to provide that "Backstory" that you (and I confess, I) created for Dolly. She is indeed working as a Matchmaker (among many other odd jobs) in Yonkers. Her husband Levi did have that quote about spreading his money around but certainly didn't leave her any inheritance or she wouldn't need to work so many jobs (or marry Horace for his money). I never pictured her as being well off enough to afford regular dinners in NYC's nicest restaurant-- you get the feeling "Well known half-a-millionaire Horace VanDerGelder" can't really afford much more than an occasional stop.

And I certainly don't recall any such scene in "The Matchmaker".

However! I absolutely agree- it is one of the great moments in Broadway theatre-- I even love Barbra Streisand doing it....

[magruder]

Posted: 1/4/05 at 12:57pm

Can we just talk about The Music Man for a second? Is there any other score for a "classic" that is as delightfully strange and off-kilter as The Music Man's? What show starts with anything as bizarre as "Rock Island"? And those percussive patter songs for Harold Hill? A show that's so in love with music that you know the leading man and leading lady go together because their songs ("Goodnight My Someone"/"76 Trombones") are secretly the same melody? And a show that champions subversive behavior in a red state? It think it's getting the bum's rush here.

Claiming My Fair Lady is overrated is too stupid to even be taken seriously.

[SueleenGay]

Posted: 1/4/05 at 1:06pm

And not to mention the fact that Rock Island is really a rap song in it's infancy. Progressive?

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 1/4/05 at 1:11pm

I have a feeling that Hello Dolly is something that has to be witnessed in all of its spectacular lushness and most importantly, with either Channing or another icon of major theatrical importance to be truly appreciated and understood. Unfortunately, I have never had the opportunity to see the show at its best. I have a feeling I would weep with joy if I saw Channing in ANYTHING, but I doubt I would do so to see Ziemba or Skinner as Dolly Levi, even in a top-notch production.

PS - I think The Music Man is actually one of the few perfect Broadway musicals. Better than West Side Story? No, but for an American musical comedy, it's tops.

Updated On: 1/4/05 at 01:11 PM

[MasterLcZ]

Posted: 1/4/05 at 1:21pm

THE MUSIC MAN is a very well put-together show with some nice songs. But it has always left me ice-cold.

Mr. Matt is right about DOLLY - It needs a Star Lady to really pull it off. And with the exception of Bernadette, there really are no Star Ladies anymore.

Updated On: 1/4/05 at 01:21 PM

[DottieD'Luscia]

Posted: 1/4/05 at 1:36pm

I agree that maybe the title should be changed. It's difficult to comment on a show when not having a chance to see the original mountings of particular productions (not born yet). My first Broadway show was "Annie" and the mere mention of the show makes people cringe. But as a 13 year old at the time, I was absolutely mesmerized by what I saw.

Not all shows have the same affect on me, but there are certain shows that immediately bring me back to the wonderment of my first Broadway show.