Bootlegs- Page 5

[badkarma719]

Posted: 8/24/04 at 2:35am

"I think the directors and choreographers would like to keep their work from being copied over and over again by every other production"

I did a prouction of Hello Dolly, and one night for rehersal we actally watched a video of a b-way wersion to see just how our director wanted to do it. The opening number had the whole bounce thing going on thru it, so we did it. And Dancing was done exactlly like the show we watched.

So yes other directors DO copy others work and reuse it

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/24/04 at 2:42am

Don't get upset at just Equity if you think union rules suck on this matter. Every job on Broadway is union. So, get mad at the musicians, stage hands, etc., too as well as directors, choreographers, and designers. The reality is that these are the people that own the rights to their work and their rights are ultimately more important than that of our desire to see the show or own a copy of it. Ultimately, that wins, which is why things are as they are. Like it or not.

[Matt_G]

Posted: 8/24/04 at 5:27pm

It does seem like this is all just a matter of revising outdated contracts, doesn't it?

[Type_A_Tiff]

Posted: 9/17/04 at 10:17pm

Bumping this AGAIN because...

...SOME PEOPLE DON'T GET IT!!

[BWayBoy88]

Posted: 9/17/04 at 10:37pm

No they really dont

Posted: 9/17/04 at 10:56pm

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[tpdc]

Posted: 9/17/04 at 11:41pm

Didn't Jerome Robbins use a bootleg to recreate the HIGH BUTTON SHOWS Mack Sennett ballet in JEROME ROBBINS BROADWAY? Isn't one of the biggest selling points of BROADWAY: THE GOLDEN AGE the bootleg clips of Merman as Rose and Lansbury as Mame?

Posted: 9/17/04 at 11:46pm

Possibly. They didn't however solicit them on BWW.com.

[Matt_G]

Posted: 9/17/04 at 11:47pm

I wouldn't call that footage bootleg, really. It was shot by people who were associated with those shows for the cast and crew.

[jesseeinstein]

Posted: 9/18/04 at 3:06pm

Matt_G you have another person on your side. I live in Toronto, and although there is theater up here, it would be nice if I could see many more shows. When I get to NYC I see as many shows as I can. If I had boots, I would still see the show, it would hype me up!

[Type_A_Tiff]

Posted: 9/18/04 at 3:25pm

Yep. I would consider seeing a bootleg the same as watching a glorified commercial. But I also don't think bootlegs should be legal, because then every a$shole with a camcorder would be taping the show. Maybe it should be decriminalized, but strongly discouraged?

Regardless, even though I'm certainly not against bootlegs, they're currently illegal and it was a pain in the ass for certain individuals yesterday to continue requesting illegal scripts of Broadway shows, which is why I bumped this thread to begin with. If this wasn't a public and fairly official Broadway forum, I wouldn't give a damn if people traded openly. But I don't want this board to close.

[badkarma719]

Posted: 9/21/04 at 3:48am

BUMP

[Guillermo Ugarte]

Posted: 9/21/04 at 12:48pm

Buying a bootleg product is tempting but, in the end it does take money away from the artists that create the work. Those dedicated to theatre should uphold this tenet, not for the love of law, but out of respect for those who make a living in this business. The purchase of bootleg work lines the pockets of the person who made or distributes the video tape. The artists get nothing from the sale.

The idea that a theatre lover in Kansas can see a bootleg and enjoy a show they might otherwise have missed is also a bit misleading. Bootleg tapes usually have low quality audio and video and are not comparable to a show experience, except in that there is usually a head blocking the view. They are rarely worth the money. It is also important to remember that there are touring companies and local and regional theatrical productions available to those who wish to enjoy the experience of live theatre and do not live or travel to New York or London. By going to see local productions, those in other parts of country support the arts in their own community. And these productions are certainly more rewarding than a badly produced video tape of a Broadway performance.

There is much merit in the idea that theatre archives should be opened for public purchase, but rights and contractual considerations must be resolved before this idea can become a reality. For those who feel strongly that these libraries should be made available for rental or purchase, it would be more fruitful to work toward that end than to blithely endorse the theft of an artistic work.

Those who purchase bootlegs should, at the very least, be honest about their disregard for the laws that prohibit the sale and purchase of these tapes. It is disingenuous to justify the purchase based on the altruistic desire to distribute tapes around the world for the love of theatre.

The term ‘bootleg’ is synonymous with piracy, smuggling and stealing. If any or all of those things seem right, then we can make no further argument. But we should be clear that bootleg products do take money from artists and all others who work to provide entertainment and, who should be paid for that work. There is a price associated with art. If there was not, the government would be forced to support artists so that they could entertain for free.

[Matt_G]

Posted: 9/21/04 at 12:57pm

Oh, man. Here we go again. Bootlegs take nothing out of the pockets of the performers. They just don't. As was stated many times before, they only encourage people to see live theatre. And yes, there are people who can not for one reason or another get out to see shows and they are the only way for them to stay in the loop and watch them. Until the producers and everyone else involved in these shows get their heads out of their asses and realize what they are missing out on, I will continue to be an advocate for them.

[spiderdj82]

Posted: 9/21/04 at 1:33pm

Ok. I think I said this before but I will say it again. I live in SC and have never been to NYC nor do I plan to anytime soon (I just don't have the money). Let's just say I get a bootleg, how is that going to take money away from the producers or whatnot? They are not getting my money anyway because I am not able to see a show (which I would love to) and there is no such thing as a substitute for the real thing on stage.

[Sunfish]

Posted: 9/21/04 at 1:37pm

Bootlegs take nothing out of the pockets of the performers and production team, but if the shows were professionally taped and sold they would make some additional money off of their performances. I realize it is an expensive proposition and probably not a break-even one, in a lot of cases, but I do wish it were done.

I don't want to see tapes INSTEAD of shows, I want to have reminders of shows I have SEEN. I'm sure there are some legendary performances we've all missed that we wish were professionally available, but I know no film is near the experience of the live show. I would never choose it over seeing a show, bootleg or professional. But I always want to have the show after I've seen it. :)

[SamIAm]

Posted: 9/21/04 at 1:45pm

Sorry. I really have to disagree with those of you who say that bootlegs take nothing out of the pockets of the performers and creative team. You WOULD NOT be seeing the performance if you had not bought the bootleg. The only other way you would see it is to go see the show and pay for a ticket.

If you came up with a great design for a bracelet and someone stole that design and made their own...you would not make money off of their sales...even though it was your talent that came up with the design. It's the same thing.

There are laws to protect against copyright infringement for just such a reason. If you don't pay the people who created it directly...you are stealing. That's pretty simple. I'm sorry that not everyone can come and see a Broadway show, and I've certainly missed some in my time but that doesn't justify paying some thief whose only talent is having a video camera and the greed to go along with it.

Not to mention the fact that there is something a bit violating about taping someone without telling them or paying them...and then selling the tape. It's rather like being filmed on a street corner without your permission.

Buy the tapes if you feel so inclined, but don't try to justify it. It's just wrong. I have friends who are musicians whose bootleg audio tapes were sold to people and someone got ahold of them and used their music without their permission. You can't guarantee what will be done with the tape after it is purchased. Someone can show it and charge for admission etc. So...you are opening a Pandora's box. I'm not suggesting that any of you will do this...but you don't know who you are selling to.

[JeffG]

Posted: 9/21/04 at 1:46pm

When everyone is ready to leave their egocentric bubble, then you should read Guillermo's comments again. It does take money away from the creative team and performers. Period. It's not even debateable. And feel free to talk about wherever you are in the country and how YOU, yourself it doesn't affect because you still go see shows and buy cd's. Guess what? That is your "deal" - that's not everyone's. Many people substitute the bootlegs for trips to NY, trips to their local theater, purchasing cd's in an industry that is already faltering.

So justify it however you want to yourself, but it's illegal, it's a crime and there's a reason the law is in place - to protect intellectual property.

Without being agist, let me just say that I think there is this sense of "entitlement" among the under 30 set. Somehow the world always owes them or they have the right to do this or that. So let me pose that question. What gives YOU the right to steal someone elses creative efforts?

[Sunfish]

Posted: 9/21/04 at 1:52pm

All I was saying is that when I see a show a show I love, and it closes, and I start to forget it, I wish I had a tape or DVD ...preferably a professional one...to remind me of what I have seen. It is not, for me, ever a replacement for having seen a show. I suppose there are people who would watch boots and think they have seen the show....but they haven't.

[Matt_G]

Posted: 9/21/04 at 2:09pm

"Without being agist, let me just say that I think there is this sense of "entitlement" among the under 30 set. Somehow the world always owes them or they have the right to do this or that. So let me pose that question. What gives YOU the right to steal someone elses creative efforts?"

BullSH*T. Plain and simple, that's all that is. If you disagree with something, fine. But don't turn around and tell me why I feel a certain way.

Updated On: 9/21/04 at 02:09 PM

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 9/21/04 at 2:15pm

Think about all the money Michael Gore, Dean Pitchford, Terry Hands, Debbie Allen and Betty Buckley have lost over the Carrie bootlegs. Sure, it was never commercially recorded or released and only ran for 5 performances and the rights for production have never been released, but that is......wait......

[popcultureboy]

Posted: 9/21/04 at 2:15pm

Not terribly well constructed bullSH*T either. Tut tut, JeffG.

[touchmeinthemorning]

Posted: 9/21/04 at 2:25pm

I'd also say it's not the under 30 set who goes in and takes over a country for their oil. But, that's neither here nor there.

Bootlegs take nothing away from stage shows. Most bootlegs are sold to people who have seen the show. They are free advertisement for the show, essentially. Site me ONE person who gets a bootleg in replacement of seeing the actual show. If you show me ONE, I'll show you a hundred who do both the show and the bootleg.

[MasterLcZ]

Posted: 9/21/04 at 2:28pm

Yes, bootlegs are illegal. Yes, they take money away from the creative personel who produced them. Yes, they are morally and ethically wrong.

But to future generations, they are invaluable.


Countless illegal opera and Broadway show recordings have preserved performances that would have been lost forever. I have heard bootlegged OBC recordings of shows that are superior in every way - offering better singing and more vivid 'atmosphere' of a Broadway experience, complete with audience murmors and applause - to the commercially released studio recordings.

During the 1950s, Hollywood studios routinely destroyed the (dangerous) nitrate negatives for their silent film and early sound films (including dozens of two-strip Technicolor films). Had it not been for the unquestionably illegal film pirates who swiped films from studio archive shelves unwittingly saving them, dozens of early films would have been forever lost.

Tomorrow at Film Forum in NYC there will be a one-day only showing of early 1930s Technicolor musical 'shorts' (I'll be there all day) including the racy 1932 THE DEVILS CABARET. An undoubtedly illegal copy turned up in the midwest a few years ago - MGM had destroyed all their copies in the 1950s. Although they officially still owned the rights to it, MGM paid a tidy sum to re-aquire it..and to rightfully restore it and preserve it for future generations.

Updated On: 9/21/04 at 02:28 PM

[SamIAm]

Posted: 9/21/04 at 2:42pm

I agree that the problem of getting professionally recorded copies of shows available to the public is not an easy one to solve. There are all kinds of rights to be ironed out before these things can happen for Broadway. However, having said that...I can't agree that we can say the bootlegs are good 'advertising' for a show. WHAT advertising? They are purchased by an individual and shown in that person's home...that's not advertising. Demo disks of new Broadway scores...that's advertising. And many shows are starting to do that...but it is expensive.

We will have to agree to disagree on this topic. I know there is work to be done to get the theater to the point where music and film have gotten and that will require the involvement of and pressure by the theatrical unions and producers in the same way that the music industry banned together to attack the Napster craze.

But until then...the practice of copying and distributing broadway shows is ILLEGAL...I didn't make the laws. But they are there for a reason. GOOD, professional copies of shows MUST be kept in archives and the film industry has only started to wake up to the damage and historical loss and they now use climate controlled libraries and copy films onto the most modern technological medium in order to protect themselves.

Until the theater is ready to offer that kind of historical archiving and until they offer professionally recorded copies, there will continue to be people who make money off of bad bootlegs. Just as there are still people making money from scalping tickets at 4 and 5 times their market value.

Supply and demand, kids! But that doesn't make it RIGHT.