So... no threads about Israel and Gaza, eh? (2014)- Page 3

[lovepuppy]

Posted: 7/30/14 at 9:25am

Well, the information came to me in a direct email from the local source reporting just the facts, which is why I left his name and position on the post.

And, yes, Hamas has carelessly hit *lots* of their own properties, and capitalizes on the PR for it, instead of feeling any sadness or concern. This published piece came out yesterday, as well:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/post_8056_b_5602701.html


Sadness, indeed.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 7/30/14 at 9:43am

That published piece is exactly what I posted 5 messages up, by the excellent Pakistani/Canadian physician and musician and writer Ali Rizvi.

[~~tiny3~~]

Posted: 7/30/14 at 2:24pm

The blog post makes some very cogent points, however, I really take issue with the veracity of many unsubstantiated "factoids" in only this one paragraph:

"Many Israelis seem to have the same tribal mentality that their Palestinian counterparts do. They celebrate the bombing of Gaza the same way many Arabs celebrated 9/11. A UN report recently found that Israeli forces tortured Palestinian children and used them as human shields. They beat up teenagers. They are often reckless with their airstrikes. They have academics who explain how rape may be the only truly effective weapon against their enemy. And many of them callously and publicly revel in the deaths of innocent Palestinian children. of the article."

Otherwise, a thoughtful and well reasoned article. Even more interesting is the"comments section" below the article.

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 7/30/14 at 3:49pm

Unfortunately, Tiny, many if perhaps not all of those factoids I have seen substantiated many times; primarily in reports and presentations by Israeli Jews including ex military people condemning - as a great many Israelis Jews do - precisely these behaviors.

Rizvi's piece does raise many cogent points. I have two major issues with it. His effort to equate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism or anti-Hamas with anti-Islam is misplaced. Anyone can point to liturgical phrases which show that the most radical agendas on both sides come from scripture. But that proves nothing. One can be very much against those sentiments from the Old Testament and Quran and still not be against Muslims or Jews. In fact, a great many Muslims and Jews, proud ones, don't accept nationalist and supremacist dogma from their holy texts.

My other major issue is that he sidesteps one reason why there is so much furor over Israeli atrocities relative to atrocities by Muslims against other Muslims. Sure, some of it is because many people, for varied and corrupt reasons, are selectively hostile to bad things when they are done by Jewish people. But there is another reason: Israel is an American ally. This takes two forms. Those who hate America enjoy condemning its allies. And those of us who are Americans and love this country are particularly troubled by horrible things happening in our name; and the same must be said for the many Israelis including many Israeli Jews who are outspoken against their own government and nation at its most objectionable!







Updated On: 7/31/14 at 03:49 PM

[HorseTears]

Posted: 7/30/14 at 7:30pm

Henrik - really appreciate those comments in your last paragraph. I have no doubt that many of the critics of Israeli policy in the occupied territories are motivated by anti-Semitism, but it is unfortunate when that label is extended to all who oppose these policies and actions of the Israeli government. Additionally, it is more than possible to be critical of the Israeli government AND of Hamas. But, all reasonable people know that.

I think you really hit the nail on the head with that last paragraph. One of the reasons that I think many American are outraged by Israel's recent actions is that we expect more out of them. More than we expect out of violent, murderous terrorist groups like ISIS in Syria and Iraq. Chances are, most of us know Israelis or know people who have lived in Israel. And it's so dismaying to see such violent, inhumane treatment of civilians being done in the name of people we know or people we directly support with a disproportionate amount of our tax dollars.

[SNAFU]

Posted: 7/30/14 at 7:48pm

Yes, and being an American, I expected more out of our government then Afghanistan and Iraq wars. How different was "Shock and Awe" from what the Israelis are doing? I don not stand by them or our government at the time that happened.
Being against Israel's government polices makes me no more anti-semetic then being anti-American for being against Bush's drunken decisions!

[PalJoey]

Posted: 7/30/14 at 11:08pm

And just when you think you REALLY understand what's going on there, that you understand better than the pundits, better than your friends, better than all the people who disagree with you AND better than all the people who agree with you...

...then you read this.


===


Egypt and other Arab states, especially the Persian Gulf monarchies of Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates, are finding themselves allied with Israel in a common opposition to Iran, a rival regional power that has a history of funding and arming Hamas.

For Washington, the shift poses new obstacles to its efforts to end the fighting.






NY TIMES: Arab Leaders, Viewing Hamas as Worse Than Israel, Stay Silent

Updated On: 7/30/14 at 11:08 PM

[lovepuppy]

Posted: 7/30/14 at 11:41pm

Hm, with allies like that, guess we know who the real bad guys are: Iran and Hamas. Not that that was a big question to those of us closer to the situation. But even the neighboring Arab states have not welcomed the Palestinian community and enclosed terrorist groups for years. And it would seem no one trusts Iran and their nuclear capabilities, with news like this.

Small victory and good news for the US, really, also.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 7/30/14 at 11:47pm

Here's another, more complex article from Politico Magazine about the shifting alliances.


POLITICO MAGAZINE: How to Think About the New Middle East What the Obama administration gets wrong about the world’s most volatile region.

[HorseTears]

Posted: 7/31/14 at 4:11am

That's a pretty interesting read, PJ. Egypt has certainly never been a friend of Hamas except, perhaps, during the brief period in which the Muslim Brotherhood held power in Cairo. I'm always a little leery of opinion pieces from people who work for the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, due to that organization's VERY cozy relationship with the powerful Israel lobby, but it seemed to be a very balanced summary of the new alignments in the M.E. It does seem that any hope for long-term peace in the region will not involve Hamas. To be fair, if Israel had been a better partner to Abbas and done more to bring about a two-state solution, perhaps the people of Gaza would not have been so frustrated with their deplorable situation enough to vote Hamas into power in the first place.

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 7/31/14 at 5:09am

Agree with you 100% Horse Tears.

[Phantom of London]

Posted: 7/31/14 at 1:50pm

The great advantage of being athiest, you see what's going on from a clear impartial perspective.

Israel is a failed state, the land doesn't belong to them, the land should be returned back to their rightful owners.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 7/31/14 at 2:00pm

Oy vey.

[IAMWHATIAM]

Posted: 7/31/14 at 2:54pm

[Popular]

Posted: 7/31/14 at 3:02pm

This terrible situation has sadly opened up my eyes to how much anti semitism still exists in the world. For the first time in my life I truly understand, as a Jew, why we always stress to never forget the Holocaust. It is shocking to me how blind some people are when Hamas and the other terrorist groups have never been shy about telling you exactly what their mission is. Israel is not fighting for land. Israel is fighting for its right to exist. If they had a button to kill every Israeli and Jew worldwide they would push it without thinking twice. And then they would go country by country killing anyone who did not want to convert to Islam and abide by sharia law. THAT is what Israel is fighting against. It's ultimately for our benefit as Americans too - perhaps they deserve a little less criticism and a little more thanks and support!

[tazber]

Posted: 7/31/14 at 3:52pm

“Their goal is to conquer the globe and build an Islamic state on every inch of the globe, (Hamas) is willing to sacrifice as many Palestinian lives as it takes."

-Mosab Hassan Yousef, the son of Hamas co-founder and leader Hassan Yousef
Israel is fighting for the free world

[Phantom of London]

Posted: 7/31/14 at 3:56pm

Wrong, if there was no Israel there would equally would be no Hamas, the Jews created Hamas.

[Gothampc]

Posted: 7/31/14 at 3:57pm

"Israel is a failed state, the land doesn't belong to them, the land should be returned back to their rightful owners."

So where do you propose the Israelis go? Like Helen Thomas, you think they should live in Germany?

And let's not forget that is was the United Nations which gave them that land. So if the Jews fail in Israel, then we should dismantle the entire United Nations, save our money and turn that strip of land in Manhattan to high priced condos.

On second thought, we should do that with the UN even if the Jews succeed in Israel.

[tazber]

Posted: 7/31/14 at 4:00pm

the Jews created Hamas

No they didn't.

Updated On: 7/31/14 at 04:00 PM

[PalJoey]

Posted: 7/31/14 at 4:22pm

Wrong, if there was no Israel there would equally would be no Hamas, the Jews created Hamas.

I suppose we also drink the blood of Christian babies?

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 7/31/14 at 4:25pm

And you killed Jesus!

[sabrelady]

Posted: 7/31/14 at 4:37pm

Hey Phantom I'mma gonna go to the world wide cabal of Jewish bankers and make shure they and the Protocols of Zion take care of u!
NICE knowing u....

[FishermanBob]

Posted: 7/31/14 at 4:51pm

Phantom, you've proven yourself to be an even bigger idiot than your need to list every show you've ever seen would have led us to believe. And not only that, you are grossly misinformed.

[finebydesign]

Posted: 7/31/14 at 5:22pm

"And let's not forget that is was the United Nations which gave them that land. So if the Jews fail in Israel, then we should dismantle the entire United Nations, save our money and turn that strip of land in Manhattan to high priced condos. "

So wait Goth, now you are for the UN?

[Phantom of London]

Posted: 7/31/14 at 6:52pm

The small countries that the USA lent on, by threatening to remove aid, if they didn't vote for Israel?