Can a white person be cast as Hamilton or Angelica?- Page 4

[Elder Katt]

Posted: 1/5/16 at 8:34pm

I was actually super curious about Struxness and Bettiol covering the sisters for this very reason. I'm conflicted, because I think it ruins the whole concept, yet at the same time, boy do I think Struxness would be a fierce Angelica. And Thayne Jasperson is/was also one of the covers for Laurens, right? 

[SFFrontRow]

Posted: 1/5/16 at 8:44pm

People totally missed my point.

Updated On: 1/5/16 at 08:44 PM

[SFFrontRow]

Posted: 1/5/16 at 9:04pm

Deleted and reposted to reply to the correct message.

Updated On: 1/5/16 at 09:04 PM

[gypsy101]

Posted: 1/5/16 at 9:09pm

If it's possible for a hispanic / Asian / black Glinda or Elder Price why hasn't there been one? Why have they all been white as rice? And rcwr said we live in a white supremacist society, meaning that in our society for one to be white is considered the supreme, not that everyone is in the KKK. I agree with him/her on that. Then there's that "why can't white people be happy with their 99.9%?" which is probably accurate. As a gay white male I've been discriminated against enough times in my life to identify with people who aren't straight white males. I think in this society we live in if you aren't a straight white male then you get the short end of the stick.

Updated On: 1/5/16 at 09:09 PM

[SFFrontRow]

Posted: 1/5/16 at 9:11pm

DivaProf said: "Lilly7 said: "Why do white people always complain when they're excluded from something? Can't you just be happy with the other 99.9% of things available to you?"

 

Exactly!

To Lily and DivaProf...

I find both of your responses kind of insulting.

The difference is, those roles DivaProf cited don't have a casting requirement of a specific race (I will stop saying whites only). It is POSSIBLE for ANYONE to play the roles you cited - ANYONE. And I have also agreed in my prior posts, there is not the opportunity for some actors and that is just as wrong to me.

And you both obviously missed my point. Funny, I went out of my way to say how I was all for true color blind casting and opportunities for everyone. But, to you both, your response is a rather insulting "white guy complaining". Nice dialog, thanks for participating.

Truth be told, I'm just an old gay white guy who wants to play Angelica. And just so you know, being gay has marginalized me throughout my life as much as anyone. I was bashed, bullied, mocked, shunned, and excluded. Having experienced it from a young age, I don't like that being done to anyone.

I am for inclusion of all. And your misconstruing and misrepresenting what I am saying is why I seldom post on this site. Go ahead and mock me, attack my views, and stereotype me as a complaining white guy. I guess you are both better persons than me...

[Lilly7]

Posted: 1/5/16 at 9:43pm

A lot of people think color-blind casting is the answer to the problem, it's not. This article while about film rather than theater sums up most of my feeling towards it. 

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2015/12/oscar-isaac-and-the-case-against-colorblind-casting/421668/

 

"In the face of Hollywood’s deeply entrenched racism, colorblind casting seems like a solution with broad appeal and an actual history of producing great performances. But its downsides go beyond the fact that white actors can end up taking roles for non-white characters, as in Aloha and Pan, or that productions can slot minority actors into secondary roles and get praised for “diversity.” It’s simply counterintuitive to argue that problems related to race can be fixed by ignoring race altogether. In practice, colorblind casting isn’t a form of acceptance or progress: It can just as easily be erasure wrapped up as benevolence. At the heart of colorblind casting is the belief that race doesn’t affect character. If Hollywood’s history is any indication, race only really matters in mainstream stories when it comes to historical dramas, biopics, and films explicitly about that theme."

 

While it's nice to think in a perfect world, race doesn't matter, in reality it does and it shapes who we are. Casting poc in roles originally written for a white person is great but it's not the same as a role written for them in the first place. 

 

Updated On: 1/5/16 at 09:43 PM

[AHLiebross]

Posted: 1/5/16 at 10:39pm

A couple of questions and comments: I assume breakdowns are the book writer's description of each character at the beginning of the book. Is that what people are referring to?

 

I can see why someone who doesn't match the breakdown wants to play the role. If he or she is a big enough star, the individual might succeed in getting a shot, such as Mary Tyler Moore playing the previously male lead role in "Whose Life is it Anyway?"

 

I hope that white people don't usually want to grab the few lead roles available for African American performers. However, if the role is meaty enough, and the CHARACTER can be white (which we know, of course, that Hamilton, Jefferson, George Washington, and the others were), I could see someone's falling in love with the role and saying, "I really want to play that role -- it's perfect for my acting skills and my voice." Is that selfish? Maybe, but the theatre is an inherently competitive profession.

 

 

As far as Galinda's being played by an African-American performer, Galinda's casting has been so rigid that I doubt a white woman with brown hair and brown eyes would be selected; part of the joke about Galinda's being "Miss Perfection" is probably that she has to look like the epitome of Aryan womanhood. That wink at the audience would have gotten lost if Idina Menzel or Audra McDonald had been cast as the first Galinda.

 

As I've said many times, white characters can easily be played by nonwhite performers as long as people understand that the character is white even if the actor isn't -- we're seeing that now with Hamilton. To me, the trickier question is deciding when the CHARACTER needs to be white even though the performer is not. Christine Daae can easily be played by an African-American performer. It would take only a tiny bit of tweaking -- a line saying that she is the daughter of the Swedish violinist and a singer from Algeria. As for white characters, Hamilton is one example. Yitzchak in Hedwig, Tevye in Fiddler, Freddy in My Fair Lady, and Raoul in POTO are white characters, and probably can't be tweaked to make them anything else. Yet, that doesn't mean that a person of color can't play the roles (e.g., Rebecca Jones as Yitzie). 

 

The conversations about race on this board are long overdue in the United States in general. There are certainly lots of racists in North America and Europe, but I doubt that too many of them hang around with theatre people, who are generally an accepting group of folks.

 

Happy New Year!

Audrey Liebross

 

[SFFrontRow]

Posted: 1/5/16 at 10:39pm

To Lily

I totally agree with the need for more diverse stories and roles. And I also agree that there are specific "types" for roles and there is a lot of hesitance in accepting something different. I don't happen to be one of the hesitant ones. I support a wide assortment of diverse theater, most importantly, financially as a patron. I most certainly didn't mean to sound like "The Donald".

[lambchop2]

Posted: 1/5/16 at 11:03pm

"As far as Galinda's being played by an African-American performer, Galinda's casting has been so rigid that I doubt a white woman with brown hair and brown eyes would be selected; part of the joke about Galinda's being "Miss Perfection" is probably that she has to look like the epitome of Aryan womanhood. That wink at the audience would have gotten lost if Idina Menzel or Audra McDonald had been cast as the first Galinda."

 

But there have been many Glinda actresses who have been brunette or otherwise not blonde, some of whom did not have blue eyes. Hair color is not an issue due to the availability of wigs. Kara Linsday, Jennifer Laura Thompson, Alli Mauzey, Erin Mackey, Tiffany Haas, and that's only after looking through the Broadway principals. They wear wigs.

The only descriptions in the show about Glinda are that she is beautiful, and that she is blonde. So the question is: Why is that being restricted to one ethnicity? The casting breakdown for Glinda does require a Caucasian actress--the only role, to my knowledge, to specifically require an ethnicity in the show. But it's strange that Glinda 'needs' to be white according to the casting sheet, when no other role in the show does, and her storyline does not involve her ethnicity in a way that another role (like Tracy Turnblad in Hairspray) would.

 

Updated On: 1/5/16 at 11:03 PM

[HogansHero]

Posted: 1/5/16 at 11:22pm

SFFrontRow, I appreciate (both senses) your wrestling with this complicated subject of race in America. Here are a few additional things to think about: (1) I don't think race is not a 2 way street, either in practice or in theory. (The only people who really press the contrary point are those advocating for white rights (as nonsensical as men's rights). (2) I don't think we want to be in the business of limiting the ideas that a writer can put onstage. It is beyond question that Miranda's idea was to mount a show in which minorities told the story of the founding fathers, both as a way of highlighting the hip hop narrative and also as a way of claiming the early history of this country for ALL Americans by embodying that history in their images. (3) The reverse idea does not need to be spelled out because it exists sub rosa in most of our sensibilities. Moreover, plays that are actually dramatically "about" the whiteness of a character are few and far between but are not beyond the realm of possibility, just as what Miranda has done here is not something that occurs regularly in plays. (Bear in mind that the author usually has casting approval and need not spell it out-at least not for first class productions). (4) As noted, this is not a case of color blind casting. 

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 1/5/16 at 11:27pm

I feel bad for people who see Hamilton who "don't see race."  I guess they just see a bunch of blobs or something.

[Jane2]

Posted: 1/6/16 at 12:01am

"A couple of questions and comments: I assume breakdowns are the book writer's description of each character at the beginning of the book. Is that what people are referring to?"

 

I copied this definition for you:

 

A “breakdown” in showbiz is a write-up of the project that includes a synopsis or description of the project in addition to descriptions of all the characters/roles in the script for the project. It also commonly includes names of the people involved in the project such as the directors, casting directors, and producers as well as proposed project dates and locations. - See more at: http://www.youryoungactor.com/2009/12/07/what-is-a-breakdown-showbiz-term-of-the-day/#sthash.V5AkqvoU.dpuf

 

The breakdowns are sent out daily to agents, managers, etc., who then decide which of their actors to send to the auditions. The breakdowns are not supposed to be sent to the actors, however, an actor can receive them if they know "someone." When I was acting, a friend of mine had the breakdowns and charged money from all actors who wanted her to forward them every day. If an actor read the breakdowns, and wanted to be  sent in for an audition, they then could call their agent and ask to be submitted.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 1/6/16 at 12:15am

@jane2 actually the breakdowns are not a secret. They are on Backstage and are posted so whoever I was responding to when I mentioned them would only need to google them. 

[DivaProf]

Posted: 1/6/16 at 12:15am

SFFrontRow said: "DivaProf said: "Lilly7 said: "Why do white people always complain when they're excluded from something? Can't you just be happy with the other 99.9% of things available to you?"

 

 

 

Exactly!

 

To Lily and DivaProf...

 

I find both of your responses kind of insulting.

 

Truth be told, I'm just an old gay white guy who wants to play Angelica. And just so you know, being gay has marginalized me throughout my life as much as anyone. I was bashed, bullied, mocked, shunned, and excluded. Having experienced it from a young age, I don't like that being done to anyone."

My intent was not to insult you (at all).  My experience is that these issues usually only arise when people of color are given opportunities.  There can be entire productions focused on whites living in NY (or other similarly diverse places) with no racial/ethnic diversity, but that lack of diversity is rarely commented on, and definitely not described as "unfair."  To Lin's point, there aren't many roles for Latino men on Broadway, so he has created some.  I'm just wondering why that can't be okay?  

Having experienced bullying, shunning, etc... I imagine that if there were productions, events, parades, etc...that celebrated the part of you that had been bullied and shunned, it might be les than palatable to you to have someone in the non-shunned group say "Why should this group have this?  I want this too!"  As a straight person there are many things I haven't experienced that my gay/lesbian friends have.  If someone wanted to write and cast a play with gay/lesbian/trans characters, I would sit in the audience and applaud their efforts.  I wouldn't say "well straight people could have easily played those roles..."  Of course I am struggling with these issues as much as everyone else is.  I really just try to have empathy and be supportive.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 1/6/16 at 1:25am

DivaProf-I think you are missing half of what's going on here. This is not about casting opportunities, it is about story.These roles are written to be non-white for dramatic purpose, and what Miranda did was create roles that are these ethnicities. The same story is not being told when they are played by whites. As someone else said, if the audience is color blind they are not seeing the show intended. 

[A Director]

Posted: 1/6/16 at 2:22am

Audrey - You state, As I've said many times, white characters can easily be played by nonwhite performers as long as people understand that the character is white even if the actor isn't -- we're seeing that now with Hamilton. To me, the trickier question is deciding when the CHARACTER needs to be white even though the performer is not. Christine Daae can easily be played by an African-American performer. It would take only a tiny bit of tweaking -- a line saying that she is the daughter of the Swedish violinist and a singer from Algeria. As for white characters, Hamilton is one example. Yitzchak in Hedwig, Tevye in Fiddler, Freddy in My Fair Lady, and Raoul in POTO are white characters, and probably can't be tweaked to make them anything else. Yet, that doesn't mean that a person of color can't play the roles (e.g., Rebecca Jones as Yitzie)."

What nonsense!  Should a non-white actor playing a "white" role be required to wear a badge on his or her costume saying "WHITE CHARACTER  or would a program note be okay with you?

Three years ago, I saw a wonderful production of My Fair Lady.  Freddy was played by an African_American actor. No lines were added, the actor didn't wear a badge and there wasn't a note in the program.  Watching the show, it never crossed my mind whether the character was white or black. I just saw an actor playing Freddy.  By the way, the woman who played his mother was white.

Years ago, when nudity in the theatre was new, some wag wondered if there would be an all nude Fiddler on the Roof.  The wag said no because some of the men in the cast would refuse to be clipped.

[A Director]

Posted: 1/6/16 at 2:28am

The question asked by the OP is nonsense and many of the comments are depressing.  For now, Lin-Manuel Miranda gets to decide who appears in HIS Musical.

Sorry white folks, but you don't get to be cast as Porgy or Bess?  If you want to play Hamilton  or Angelica or Burr write you own show about them.

[CarlosAlberto]

Posted: 1/6/16 at 5:36am

Sorry white people. You can't have our show. 

 

But seriously, as haterobics pointed out earlier in the thread Lin Manuel stated:

 

"In every case, the intent of the author always wins. If the author has specified the ethnicity of the part, that wins."

 

It's really just as simple as that.

Updated On: 1/6/16 at 05:36 AM

[DivaProf]

Posted: 1/6/16 at 5:29pm

HogansHero said: "DivaProf-I think you are missing half of what's going on here. This is not about casting opportunities, it is about story.These roles are written to be non-white for dramatic purpose, and what Miranda did was create roles that are these ethnicities. The same story is not being told when they are played by whites. As someone else said, if the audience is color blind they are not seeing the show intended."

I actually do get that part, and find that to be part of Lin's cleverness in seeing the parallels between our founding fathers and the energy, spirit and swagger of Hip-Hop.  Casting the founding fathers and mothers of the US as explicitly Black and Brown is part of the point that Lin is making and quite frankly allows me as an African-American female descendent of US slaves to feel a part of that history in ways I never did previously.  I believe Leslie Odom has stated something similar.  

So I don't believe that I have missed that aspect--I'm just responding to those who expressed the sentiment that explicitly making these parts Black/Brown is exclusionary.  I believe that belief is a bigger issue than this show alone.  But of course that's just my opinion.

[rcwr]

Posted: 1/6/16 at 5:31pm

DivaProf said: quite frankly allows me as an African-American female descendent of US slaves to feel a part of that history in ways I never did previously.  I believe Leslie Odom has stated something similar.

I've heard Daveed Diggs say it too. Such an important aspect of this show.

[Dollypop]

Posted: 1/7/16 at 2:31pm

Don't let this get around, but Loretta Swit has been approached about taking over the role of Angelica.

[gypsy101]

Posted: 1/7/16 at 2:43pm

but...she's an old white woman

[Dollypop]

Posted: 1/7/16 at 2:50pm

But she has the box office clout to keep the show running!

[dianamorales]

Posted: 1/7/16 at 3:08pm

For me, it's almost like casting a white person in The Color Purple or as a Ugandan(?) person in BOM. It just wouldnt make sense. These are black characters.

[Dollypop]

Posted: 1/7/16 at 3:15pm

The white Bibi Osterwald went on for Pearl Bailey several times in the all-black HELLO, DOLLY!  She was marvelous!

 

Updated On: 1/7/16 at 03:15 PM