Riedel on The Great Comet off stage battle - PART 2- Page 2
Riedel on The Great Comet off stage battle - PART 2
#25Riedel on The Great Comet off stage battle - PART 2
Posted: 10/21/16 at 4:13pm
QueenAlice said: "I suppose there might be some that sympathize with Ars Nova, but the only sympathizers who matter for a not-for-profit are the ones who might donate or be of some service to the organization. I frankly wouldn't want to donate to any organization that was threatening former board members with law suits. Even if they have cause, my red flag says 'stay away from trouble'. Ars Nova is new to the world of commercial transfer and frankly --there probably are some "i's" and "t's" on their contracts as related to this production that weren't dotted and crossed, which is the root cause of this issue. Again it just speaks to a vibe of amateurism."
Needless to say, you are entitled to react to Ars Nova any way you want, and needless to say different people will react in different ways. But regarding dotting the i's and crossing the t's, I would point out that like virtually all non-profits, even the tiny ones, there are these folks called lawyers who negotiate and write their contracts, and those lawyers didn't get off the turnip truck yesterday, even if you (rightly or wrongly) think the folks running the theatre did. Credits language is pretty boilerplate and I seriously doubt a defective contract is at the root of this problem. And your "vibe" BS betrays your lack of familiarity with what you are trying to throw shade over far more than it reflects on the highly regarded folks at Ars Nova.
JoeyEvans1206
Understudy Joined: 2/19/15
#26Riedel on The Great Comet off stage battle - PART 2
Posted: 10/21/16 at 4:51pm
None of the articles have said this but here's my guess (for what it's worth):
The Kagans did not want (unfortunate for the pre-existing contract) Ars Nova billed over the ART, an institution he has aligned himself closely with since Pippin. After all, the relationship he has with ART is more valuable as there can theoretically be many more commercial partnerships with them given that this Cambridge institution has become a Broadway factory under Diane's leadership. It's interesting that the ART is keeping its nose clean when it's probably about them as much as Ars Nova.
#27Riedel on The Great Comet off stage battle - PART 2
Posted: 10/21/16 at 5:13pm
i doubt that, Joey. My guess (for what it's worth) is that Kagan felt/feels that the post-Ars iterations are the egg as well as the chicken and that Ars Nova's contribution is worthy of denigration. I think he feels it is his investment that is the real sine qua non of the Broadway production, much as Goldman Sachs thinks it is responsible for creating progress in America (or at least as their ad agency thinks).
#28Riedel on The Great Comet off stage battle - PART 2
Posted: 10/21/16 at 5:21pm
HogansHero -- I don't pretend to know anything about the 'highly regarded" folks at Ars Nova, nor the Kagans for that matter. I speak only as someone who DOES give regularly to the arts and is also regularly approached about investing in shows. The entire thing is bad publicity for both entities as far as I'm concerned. And my comment was in response to how this publicity could possibly help a not-for profit like Ars Nova. My answer is that it couldn't. And yes, despite having attorneys, I think its possible a small organization like Ars Nova who has never had a production transfer commercially could have been under-represented from a legal perspective when it came to negotiating iron clad terms for any Broadway production. Maybe it's not true -- but again, as an outside lay person, their willingness to be a part of a tabloid level dispute would make me wary about ever donating or being involved in an advisory capacity to that organization.
“I knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then.”
Updated On: 10/21/16 at 05:21 PM
#29Riedel on The Great Comet off stage battle - PART 2
Posted: 10/21/16 at 5:31pm
QueenAlice said: "HogansHero -- I don't pretend to know anything about the 'highly regarded" folks at Ars Nova, nor the Kagans for that matter. I speak only as someone who DOES give regularly to the arts and is also regularly approached about investing in shows. The entire thing is bad publicity for both entities as far as I'm concerned. And my comment was in response to how this publicity could possibly help a not-for profit like Ars Nova. My answer is that it couldn't. And yes, despite having attorneys, I think its possible a small organization like Ars Nova who has never had a production transfer commercially could have been under-represented from a legal perspective when it came to negotiating iron clad terms for any Broadway production. Maybe it's not true -- but again, as an outside lay person, their willingness to be a part of a tabloid level dispute would make me wary about ever donating or being involved in an advisory capacity to that organization.
"
I've transferred two shows and can tell you the language is so beyond "boilerplate" that it's nearly a copy+paste with a fill-in-the-blank for the enhancement dollar amount. And the same team represents Ars Nova that represents The Public, so I doubt this one was any sort of oversight more than a breach of contract.
I am interested in the theory about ART vs Ars Nova, however. Not sure how much is behind that, but could be interesting. Has anyone seen the playbill yet?
#30Riedel on The Great Comet off stage battle - PART 2
Posted: 10/21/16 at 6:20pm
@QueenAlice, as I said I not questioning your reaction. I do think, however, that it is based on some generalizations that I don think are applicable in this case. As you undoubtedly know, people support organizations and individuals based on relationships and "regard." My feeling is that as between Ars Nova and Kagen, the former is (as I said), held in high regard. The latter, not so much. Now I appreciate that you say you don know one way or the other, but I will suggest that if you care to look at their respective history of relationships, you will find evidence to support my point.
willep
Broadway Legend Joined: 9/20/08
#31Riedel on The Great Comet off stage battle - PART 2
Posted: 10/21/16 at 6:34pm
I don't have my playbill in front of me, but as I recall, it has all the 20 or so producers in a clump, then on separate lines, something like:
"with American Repertory Theatre and Ars Nova present"
#32Riedel on The Great Comet off stage battle - PART 2
Posted: 10/21/16 at 6:46pm
Someone linked the art program on the first page and in that it had ART listed at the top and Ars Nova at the bottom
^that sort of does not help the ART theory. Or maybe both ART and Ars Nova are upset that they aren't getting top billing?
In our millions, in our billions, we are most powerful when we stand together. TW4C unwaveringly joins the worldwide masses, for we know our liberation is inseparably bound.
Signed,
Theater Workers for a Ceasefire
https://theaterworkersforaceasefire.com/statement
Updated On: 10/21/16 at 06:46 PM
#33Riedel on The Great Comet off stage battle - PART 2
Posted: 10/21/16 at 7:36pm
^or maybe ART did not negotiate the credit that Ars Nova did. One "gets" what one contracted for so there is never a reason to be "upset" when you don't get something you have no right to get.
eventually, obviously, this will all play out.
#34Riedel on The Great Comet off stage battle - PART 2
Posted: 10/22/16 at 9:27am
QueenAlice said: "I suppose there might be some that sympathize with Ars Nova, but the only sympathizers who matter for a not-for-profit are the ones who might donate or be of some service to the organization. I frankly wouldn't want to donate to any organization that was threatening former board members with law suits. Even if they have cause, my red flag says 'stay away from trouble'. Ars Nova is new to the world of commercial transfer and frankly --there probably are some "i's" and "t's" on their contracts as related to this production that weren't dotted and crossed, which is the root cause of this issue. Again it just speaks to a vibe of amateurism.
"
You must have been a lot of help when bullies showed up at the playground.
neonlightsxo
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/29/08
#35Riedel on The Great Comet off stage battle - PART 2
Posted: 10/28/16 at 10:30am
http://nypost.com/2016/10/27/mel-brooks-is-bringing-the-young-frankenstein-musical-back-from-the-dead/
Part 3.
What does Kagan gain from acting so immature?
#36Riedel on The Great Comet off stage battle - PART 2
Posted: 10/28/16 at 11:13am
I don't take it upon myself to fight bullies in the business world. I leave them to their own devices and karmic paybacks.
“I knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then.”
broadwayguy91
Broadway Star Joined: 12/23/15
#37Riedel on The Great Comet off stage battle - PART 2
Posted: 10/28/16 at 11:24am
In 20 years time this show will be revived and incorporate the whole Kagan / Ats Nova drama ala the shuffle along 2016 revival , starring Audra McDonald's youngest as natasha .
Updated On: 10/28/16 at 11:24 AM
bloomerific
Understudy Joined: 5/16/16
#38Riedel on The Great Comet off stage battle - PART 2
Posted: 10/28/16 at 12:08pm
Wow...that would be something if Josh just upped and said, "nah" to the recording day!
#39Riedel on The Great Comet off stage battle - PART 2
Posted: 10/28/16 at 12:18pm
This is such a stupid issue.
"...everyone finally shut up, and the audience could enjoy the beginning of the Anatevka Pogram in peace."
#40Riedel on The Great Comet off stage battle - PART 2
Posted: 10/28/16 at 3:40pm
What does Kagan lose by giving Ars Nova their "created by" credit? Certainly not any percentage of the show's earnings, as that has already been guaranteed and locked in by contracts. I am trying but I cannot see what Kagan possibly gains by drawing the line in the sand over such a small issue.
TodayTix Code: XGAXA
Updated On: 10/28/16 at 03:40 PM
#41Riedel on The Great Comet off stage battle - PART 2
Posted: 10/28/16 at 5:12pm
broadwayguy91 said: "In 20 years time this show will be revived and incorporate the whole Kagan / Ats Nova drama ala the shuffle along 2916 revival , starring Audra McDonald's youngest as natasha .
"
Pretty sure Natasha would be Audra's great great great great great great great grandchild.
In our millions, in our billions, we are most powerful when we stand together. TW4C unwaveringly joins the worldwide masses, for we know our liberation is inseparably bound.
Signed,
Theater Workers for a Ceasefire
https://theaterworkersforaceasefire.com/statement
broadwayguy91
Broadway Star Joined: 12/23/15
#42Riedel on The Great Comet off stage battle - PART 2
Posted: 10/28/16 at 9:20pm
Call_me_jorge said: "broadwayguy91 said: "In 20 years time this show will be revived and incorporate the whole Kagan / Ats Nova drama ala the shuffle along 2916 revival , starring Audra McDonald's youngest as natasha .
"
Pretty sure Natasha would be Audra's great great great great great great great grandchild.
"
Thanks for catching that typo, LOL
Cfried
Broadway Star Joined: 9/15/16
#43Riedel on The Great Comet off stage battle - PART 2
Posted: 10/28/16 at 10:58pm
broadwayguy91 said: "In 20 years time this show will be revived and incorporate the whole Kagan / Ats Nova drama ala the shuffle along 2016 revival , starring Audra McDonald's youngest as natasha .
This MADE MY DAY. Thank you. It's so unfortunate that the Ars Nova/Kagan conflict has to come to this. I only hope it doesn't hurt the show.
#44Riedel on The Great Comet off stage battle - PART 2
Posted: 10/29/16 at 9:57am
I was able to see the production last night, and loved it. It was a thrill to see how much the production and grown since I first saw it several years ago at Ars Nova. As I was watching it, I couldn't help but think about this unfortunate Fight. But playing devils advocate, I think I understand perhaps a little bit where the Kagan's are coming from. In truth, this production is very different from what appeared downtown. It has several new songs, and though certainly "inspired" from the work downtown, it is a completely different staging on Broadway.
So I can perhaps understand the disagreement with the credit that states this is "the Ars Nova production of…" because it really isn't.
It would be kind of like a credit that states "The Nederlanders present the Playwrights Horizons production of SUNDAY IN THE PARK WITH GEORGE" - and we all know that show changed greatly by the time it got to Broadway.
Certainly Ars Nova deserves credit for commissioning and developing the piece but why can't the credit line speak so much to that? I would think that's a potential solution.
“I knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then.”
Updated On: 10/29/16 at 09:57 AM
Fosse76
Broadway Legend Joined: 3/21/05
#45Riedel on The Great Comet off stage battle - PART 2
Posted: 10/29/16 at 10:13am
It doesn't matter if you think the production has changed dramatically from its original iteration and sympathize with the show's producer. Kagan in CONTRACTUALLY OBLIGATED to credit the production to Ars Nova. He is flagrantly violating the terms of the contract. And under contract law, ALL terms of the contract are binding, even if you no longer like the terms. Only illegal acts are unenforceable in a contract.
#46Riedel on The Great Comet off stage battle - PART 2
Posted: 10/29/16 at 11:25am
I've been following this for a while now and I have to say that Kagan sounds like a total douche. He not only refused to honor a contract but he vindictively scheduled the cast recording the same day of a major fundraiser in which the cast was headlined. I'm sorry for the cast and crew of the show. Tony voters have a way of remembering things like this at awards time.
#47Riedel on The Great Comet off stage battle - PART 2
Posted: 10/29/16 at 11:37am
@Fosse76, Yep.
There are dozens of credits that are not especially accurate but are nonetheless contractual and included. "Producers" names appear above the title even though all they did was invest a lot of money, actors names are bigger and/or higher than other actors' names because they have a name that could demand that. Original production credits are most often set up as they are in this Playbill, and that is what many producers would agree to, but as we know Kagan is not an experienced producer nor a very smart one so it is not that surprising he agreed to what he is required to do. It will be interesting to see if they sued Kagan personally as well, for breach of his fiduciary duty.
neonlightsxo
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/29/08
#48Riedel on The Great Comet off stage battle - PART 2
Posted: 10/29/16 at 3:30pm
Hogan, according to the Times they did.
Renee Blinkwolt, the theater’s managing director, said on Friday that the organization was filing two complaints: one, with the American Arbitration Association, accusing Mr. Kagan’s production company of breach of contract; and another, with a New York state court, accusing Mr. Kagan of interfering with a contract and breaching his fiduciary duty.
https://www.google.com/amp/mobile.nytimes.com/2016/10/29/theater/dispute-at-natasha-pierre-the-great-comet-of-1812-leads-to-lawsuit.amp.html?client=safari
#49Riedel on The Great Comet off stage battle - PART 2
Posted: 10/29/16 at 4:23pm
thanks, and good. I read something in the Times but I don't recall that. Perhaps I saw an earlier piece. The civil suit is important because it can lead to injunctive relief. If they wait for arbitration, the damage will have been done and the show may well have closed. Then they would have to rely on a jury to decide what the value of that loss is and, if (as has been the case with prior Kagan enterprises) the show closes at a loss, there will be no assets to pay the damages. For this reason as well, prevailing against Kagan personally will be important.
