Dear Evan Hansen issue...- Page 2

[ColorTheHours048]

Posted: 2/28/17 at 6:11pm

Well, some folks have already said pretty much exactly what I was going to say. The uplifting, "top 40" friendly songs almost completely mask the laughably implausible and grossly amoral book lurking underneath. I honestly couldn't believe what I was watching - and that people were quite literally sobbing in the aisles. And that was only at intermission! I haven't hated a piece of theatre like this, maybe ever. Like someone said previously, I look forward to the revival years from now that actually casts the character of Evan in a light that exposes what a creepy sociopath he really is. As it stands now, with the throngs of young fans and their parents flocking to it nightly, this production is - to me - highly irresponsible and problematic.

Updated On: 2/28/17 at 06:11 PM

[icecreambenjamin]

Posted: 2/28/17 at 6:28pm

I really think that the whole point of the show revolves around the idea that "it gets better."  The writers have presented us with the worst circumstances possible and shows that it's always possible to realize that you've messed up and it's never too late to fix what you've done wrong.  Evan is not a "psychopath", he's a kid who has acted irresponsibly and has messed up really bad.  We are in a world where it is really easy for an irresponsible teenager to publicly make some major mistakes due to social media.  He helps this family by giving their son a good memory, even though it may be a lie.  The show isn't bleak or immoral.  It's brutally honest.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 2/28/17 at 6:42pm

Change the character names and song titles, and this entire thread could be a discussion of THE MUSIC MAN.

Unless the cast recording grossly misrepresents the show, the plot is a pretty standard one in which an otherwise likable hero commits a seemingly harmless fraud in order to get the perfect girl and/or the perfect life. (Evan gets it all: his ideal family and girlfriend, and a prominent place in the community.) The hero's comeuppance is losing everything because now he has experienced perfection, but must learn to live in the real world. (Or in a comedy, there may be a final reversal in which the hero gets the girl, etc., after all. See Cornelius in HELLO, DOLLY!)

On the recording, the last line is something like, "Dear Evan Hansen, it's a new day and I am myself. And that's good enough." He has lost the perfect family, but has found his real family with his mother. He has lost the perfect girl, but learned a valuable lesson about identity and honesty.

Social media is merely the contemporary means of communicating the fraud. In THE MUSIC MAN, the media are town gossip and a dance march at the gym.

I haven't seen the show, but it sounds to me as though the ambivalence of some here is caused by the fact that the show adds dark elements to a basically comic plot. Welcome to Post-Modernism. (And unlike a traditional comedy, Evan does not get everything he originally wanted.)

[ColorTheHours048]

Posted: 2/28/17 at 6:45pm

Gaveston - Respectfully, you are very incorrect.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 2/28/17 at 7:18pm

No disrespect inferred, ColortheHours, but I could go on and on listing plays with essentially the same "lovable imposter" plot: HOW TO SUCCEED..., WHERE'S CHARLEY?, THE IMPORTANCE OF BEING EARNEST, numerous comedies by Plautus and Shakespeare, etc.

In most of these the humiliation of being exposed is the punishment. In comedies, the imposter often gets what he wants anyway; that DEH isn't pure comedy is seen in the fact Evan does not.

I'm willing to be proven wrong; after all, I haven't seen the play, I'm mostly following the conversation here. But merely saying I am incorrect isn't proof.

[icecreambenjamin]

Posted: 2/28/17 at 7:46pm

Gaveston, you're actually correct.  Although, I wouldn't say that what Evan did was "harmless."

[snl89]

Posted: 2/28/17 at 8:52pm

"Thanks for the thoughtful engagement, snl89. I agree with everything you say about the role of mental health in Evan's decisions, and I think the show and Ben Platt in particular go into overdrive to make sure this point is hammered home. And good for them; I can't remember a more honest portrayal of anxiety in musical theater.

For me, though, the immorality is all contained in the ending. Evan apologizes and actually admits himself in "Words Fail" that all of his challenges are not an excuse for his behavior. But then rather than face the real consequences of his actions, the show puts a thumb on the scale and makes it so that his actions actually helped the Murphy family. As a result, Evan never has to truly reckon with the impact of his actions on others, which is the real meaning of accountability.

A more honest ending, to my mind, would be one where Evan's lies are made public and the Murphy family never forgives him, but nevertheless he picks himself up and continues on and tries to atone as best he can anyway. Sometimes we really can't ever fix what we've done wrong, and I feel pretty strongly that constructing a web of lies to the family of a dead child for personal gain usually ends up in that category. Unfortunately, that doesn't make for a soaring, feel-good ending, and it left me with the feeling that the ending was, in Scarywarhol's words, "almost comically unearned"."

 

@RunningThatRoad: And thank you for the thoughtful response! This is a really interesting discussion, actually :)

 

Click Here To Toggle Spoiler Content

I do definitely see where you're coming from regarding the ending, and I think if not for a few key details that make it work for me personally I might well have felt the same. But personally, what I feel makes the difference is: 

As I had mentioned in my previous post, the fact that it's a year or so that goes by where (very importantly) Evan IS genuinely working on his own issues for himself and not desperately trying to mend things is really significant.

If the implication was that he'd been continuously trying to reach out to the Murphys starting shortly after it all went down, and/or if the Murphys had just forgiven him really quickly like it was nothing, of course I would absolutely agree that that would be "comically unearned" and, moreover, problematic to imply that what Evan did was anywhere near a "no biggie" kind of thing. 

But as it stands, to me it DOES actually feel like he does exactly what you described: picks himself up and tries to atone/work on himself as best he can anyway, with no expectation that the Murphys would forgive him and understanding that they would have had every right to make public the fact that he had been lying. He does all that, and then only after a good long while has passed, the impression I got at least is that he reaches out to Zoe again simply to see if there's any possibility she might be up for talking, and knowing the answer might well be no. 

So for his part, he doesn't really seem to have an expectation that what he did can be fixed, which is precisely why I don't so much mind that the end leaves it open to the possibility that maybe it could be: because that part is left 100% in the Murphys' court. If things can be fixed, it's made clear that it would be because the Murphys, in their own time, decide they're open to letting him back in their life again, and not because Evan is actively trying to fix it or make it up to them. He instead just allows them to process and handle the hurt that he has caused them in whatever way they need to process it. 

And for the Murphys' part... I guess I just think that's up to every individual person, how they would handle that kind of situation. For some, I can absolutely respect that it would be completely unsalvageable. But then, at least most of us as an audience sympathize with Evan despite how wrong his actions are, don't we? So I don't necessarily think it's terribly far fetched to think that the Murphys, given time to process the initial hurt, could also start to see that: a) what Evan did was never out of intentional malice at all but out of a genuine need for help and connection and b) despite the obvious terribleness of it having been predicated on a lie, some of the things he said and did for them might still have held some healing truth in there. It doesn't excuse anything, as Evan notes himself, but nevertheless I don't so much think it's a dishonest conclusion. 

I will say that that least scene does perhaps feel a little *short* for all the conclusion that's packed into it, and it might have benefited from being a little longer so that Zoe could really explain the process she and her parents went through in coming to the place they're at by that point. But the idea that they COULD get to that place, to me, feels like an optimistic but still honest outcome. And of course it would be just as honest and valid if the outcome was that Zoe didn't want to talk to Evan and her parents had made his lies public. But I don't find it so hard to believe that some people can get to that place of forgiveness, and Zoe in particular I can buy as being that kind of person. 

 

[snl89]

Posted: 2/28/17 at 9:36pm

3NU said: "This is a really fascinating discussion, and it's interesting that people are coming away with so many different interpretations.

Here's my take on it:

 

 

Click Here To Toggle Spoiler Content

I think the crux of DEH lies in "Words Fail":

I guess I thought I could be part of this
I never had this kind of thing before
I never had that perfect girl
Who somehow could see the good part of me

I never had the dad who stuck it out
No corny jokes or baseball gloves
No mom who just was there
'Cause mom was all that she had to be

That's not a worthy explanation
I know there is none
Nothing can make sense of all these things I've done

Words fail, words fail
There's nothing I can say
Except sometimes, you see everything you wanted
And sometimes, you see everything you wish you had
And it's right there, right there, right there
In front of you
And you want to believe it's true
So you... make it true
And you think maybe everybody wants it
And needs it... a little bit... too

This is really the first time that Evan admits the truth to both the Murphys and himself: that he intentionally took advantage of a horrible situation to make himself "belong", justifying to himself that his actions were appropriate because he was "helping the Murphys".

Building on this is the recurring theme of sun, which represents truth, love, acceptance, etc.

From "Waving Through the Window":

Step out, step out of the sun
If you keep getting burned
Step out, step out of the sun
Because you've learned, because you've learned

Here Evan tells himself the lie that stepping out in the sun will only get himself burned, perpetually leaving himself "waving through the window".  However, upon Connor's death, Evan feels he can create (i.e., lie about) a life that will bring him into the sun.  

From "For Forever":

All we see is light for forever
'Cause the sun shines bright for forever
Life will be alright for forever this way
Two friends on a perfect day

And there he goes
Racing toward the tallest tree
From far across the yellow field I hear him calling "follow me"
And there we go
Wondering how the world might look from up so high

One foot after the other
One branch then to another
I climb higher and higher
I climb until the entire
Sun shines on my face

"Words Fail" is a turning point for Evan; he realizes that the sun he was creating through his lie is not true light (i.e., truth):

'Cause what if everyone saw?
What if everyone knew?
Would they like what they saw?
Or would they hate it too?
Will I just keep on running away from what's true?

All I ever do is run
So how do I step in
Step into the sun?
Step into the sun

In the end, Evan learns that being himself is enough and that seeking out a sun of his own making is never truly going to bring him joy:

EVAN (spoken)
Dear Evan Hansen,?
Today is going to be a good day. And here's why: because today, today at least you're you and—that's enough.?

COMPANY (sung)
All we see is sky for forever
We let the world pass by for forever
Feels like we could go on for forever this way
This way

All we see is light
Watch the sun burn bright
We could be alright for forever
This way

All we see is sky for forever

EVAN
All I see is sky for forever?

Evan's repetition of the company's line is what hammers the point home here.  These lyrics are, of course, a neat juxtaposition of those used in "For Forever" -- the same lyrics with completely different meanings.

Overall, I found the messages of seeing oneself as enough (and the dangers of creating a lie of a life that you think will make you happy in order to feel "enough" ) to be wonderfully lyrical and immensely moving.  Moreover, the integration of social media is incredibly apt, as it illustrates a person's ability, especially in this day and age, to mobilize, feed, and be reaffirmed by a movement that one creates (in this case, The Connor Project) and the way that social media has a life of its own that reacts to circumstances swiftly and unabashedly, regardless of truth (e.g., the high praise for Evan and the nasty tear-downs of the Murphys).

I absolutely disagree with the argument that the musical justifies Evan's actions because they eventually helped the Murphys cope with their grief.  I believe Evan already hit rock bottom and learned to forgive himself prior to meeting with Zoe in the final scene.  Moreover, Evan knows well enough that the Murphys could easily have exposed him, yet they chose not to.  They also chose to seek healing amongst the horrible things that happened to them.  It gave the Murphys agency, and they used that agency to show Evan grace and love.

My only gripe with the musical -- and I believe there's not really anything the musical's creators could have done about it -- is that most of the songs are hard to take at face value in the context of the narrative.  "Sincerely, Me" is hilarious, but also totally not in the context of the narrative.  "If I Could Tell Her" and "Only Us" are beautiful but also creepily emotionally manipulative (again, in the context of the narrative).  "You Will Be Found" is an inspiring piece but also (once again, in the context of the narrative) falsely inspiring because it's based on a lie.  I saw a highly-"liked" YouTube comment on "You Will Be Found" that claims the (spoken) lyric of "I know someone who really needed to hear this today, so thank you Evan Hansen", was incredibly powerful.  Yet, this lyric is immensely ironic in context.  (It's also immensely ironic how well-"liked" this comment was on YouTube.)

Then again, I felt the same way about "Let It Go" from Frozen.  While most people find the song inspiring, I can only see it in the context of the narrative, which is Elsa saying, "Screw you, I can do whatever I want to this kingdom -- including FREEZING IT OVER -- because everyone has stopped me from using my special powers before.  BUT NO MORE. Just you watch me..."

 

 "

3NU, I just realized that a lot of what I was trying to get at was what you had already expressed so eloquently! haha 

So yeah, LOVE this response, and I completely agree :) 

The only thing I feel slightly differently on is... I kind of love that the songs are so sincere, despite the the story being all about some extremely morally grey actions. I almost feel like the songs serve as the emotional honesty that grounds the whole thing.

Especially with You Will Be Found- I don't necessarily see it as falsely inspiring so much as Evan stepping away from the lie he's fabricated and allowing for a moment of emotional honesty *despite* the lie, if that makes sense. Like, he literally starts that scene at the assembly with the lie about his and Connor's friendship, and then once he drops his notes it's a pointed switch where he just lets it be an honest moment, dropping the act to instead say both what he himself needs to hear and what everyone else probably needs to hear at one point or another too. 

I can see the issue a bit more with If I Could Tell Her and Only Us, since those really can't not be manipulative by nature, but even so I can't help but still find them sweet. A lot of that is probably that the show does a really good job in setting up the fact that Evan genuinely doesn't go into any of the things he does with malicious intent. Even with If I Could Tell Her, he doesn't seek her out to tell her all of this under the guise of it being about Connor, but rather she comes to him in the hopes that he can help her understand her brother better, and Evan, wanting to say something that will comfort her, naturally starts using all the things HE feels about her as examples since he obviously didn't actually know anything about how Connor felt about her. The problem is that he stumbles into these situations and *then* gets carried away with his own self-serving longings and wishes. But again, I think the songs being so sincere kind of serves to emphasize that it does at least start from an honest place of him wanting to provide comfort for the Murphys... which I think is important given how easily it COULD come across as him just straight up being grossly manipulative and awful if you don't actually buy that his initial intentions at least are pure :) 

[phan24]

Posted: 2/28/17 at 11:01pm

ColorTheHours048 said: "Well, some folks have already said pretty much exactly what I was going to say. The uplifting, "top 40" friendly songs almost completely mask the laughably implausible and grossly amoral book lurking underneath. I honestly couldn't believe what I was watching - and that people were quite literally sobbing in the aisles. And that was only at intermission! I haven't hated a piece of theatre like this, maybe ever. Like someone said previously, I look forward to the revival years from now that actually casts the character of Evan in a light that exposes what a creepy sociopath he really is. As it stands now, with the throngs of young fans and their parents flocking to it nightly, this production is - to me - highly irresponsible and problematic."

 

I couldn't agree more, ColorTheHours048. This show left me baffled and I would call it both irresponsible and problematic. The songs as standalone's are very catchy and I really like them, but as they work in the weak book, it is really cringe-worthy.

[pupscotch]

Posted: 2/28/17 at 11:16pm

Most of this is a spoiler so I'm just going to leave it all in spoiler alert :)

 

Click Here To Toggle Spoiler Content

My main qualm with the book is the Zoe/Evan relationship. I think that if that hadn't happened, I'd have felt a lot more sympathy with him throughout because then he'd have genuinely been trying to do the right thing, albeit in very very immoral ways. Yet, through this sort of unnecessary emotional manipulation that he starts without prompting, unlike with Connor's parents and the original lie, he loses my sympathy. He does not have to start this relationship, and yet he does it anyway on a completely false basis: Zoe says in Only Us that she "doesn't want this relationship to be about [her] brother" when the only interactions we've seen up to this point between her and Evan involve them talking about her brother.

I also fail to understand why Evan continues to expand the scope of the lie and make it worse for himself, when that's absolutely unnecessary. Disappear explains this well enough, but by the time it gets to the suicide note it seems to have snowballed to a point that it didn't really need to get to and probably was better off not going to. I would much rather have had a more satisfying ending about Evan's actual journey to self acceptance and have him confess either at the end of Act 1 or the beginning/middle of Act 2, and then the show might have packed a larger emotional wallop for me, and the ending would have felt earned. But alas, that's not what we got.

I think the score is very good, so good that it hides an almost disastrous book. I'm almost upset at this musical, because I used to really really love it, and now that I've thought about it a lot I like it a lot less. However, lots of people do feel really strong emotional connection to this show, and I can understand why. I just feel that the initial story was good and was meaningful, but somewhere in the second act, they lost it. I did adore So Big/So Small and Words Fail, and wish the second act felt as genuine as those moments.

 

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 2/28/17 at 11:31pm

icecreambenjamin said: "Gaveston, you're actually correct.  Although, I wouldn't say that what Evan did was "harmless."

 

"

True. I wrote "seemingly harmless", but should have made it clear that the fraud seems "harmless" to the imposter him or herself. (It isn't really harmless to take the money of farmers for band uniforms, either, but Hill doesn't think about that; his con is harmless relative to impersonating a brain surgeon, say, or actually stealing farmers' land.)

[snl89]

Posted: 3/1/17 at 12:19am

pupscotch said: "Most of this is a spoiler so I'm just going to leave it all in spoiler alert :)

 

 

Click Here To Toggle Spoiler Content

My main qualm with the book is the Zoe/Evan relationship. I think that if that hadn't happened, I'd have felt a lot more sympathy with him throughout because then he'd have genuinely been trying to do the right thing, albeit in very very immoral ways. Yet, through this sort of unnecessary emotional manipulation that he starts without prompting, unlike with Connor's parents and the original lie, he loses my sympathy. He does not have to start this relationship, and yet he does it anyway on a completely false basis: Zoe says in Only Us that she "doesn't want this relationship to be about [her] brother" when the only interactions we've seen up to this point between her and Evan involve them talking about her brother.

I also fail to understand why Evan continues to expand the scope of the lie and make it worse for himself, when that's absolutely unnecessary. Disappear explains this well enough, but by the time it gets to the suicide note it seems to have snowballed to a point that it didn't really need to get to and probably was better off not going to. I would much rather have had a more satisfying ending about Evan's actual journey to self acceptance and have him confess either at the end of Act 1 or the beginning/middle of Act 2, and then the show might have packed a larger emotional wallop for me, and the ending would have felt earned. But alas, that's not what we got.

I think the score is very good, so good that it hides an almost disastrous book. I'm almost upset at this musical, because I used to really really love it, and now that I've thought about it a lot I like it a lot less. However, lots of people do feel really strong emotional connection to this show, and I can understand why. I just feel that the initial story was good and was meaningful, but somewhere in the second act, they lost it. I did adore So Big/So Small and Words Fail, and wish the second act felt as genuine as those moments.

 

 

 

"

 

Click Here To Toggle Spoiler Content

I could be remembering wrong, but I don't think Evan really does initiate the relationship with Zoe without prompting, though, does he? I mean he kisses her at the end of If I Could Tell Her, which Jared immediately calls out as a TERRIBLE move, but that reads as more of a total impulse control issue and Zoe is having none of it at that point anyway. 

Isn't it not until the end of You Will Be Found, when Zoe is the one to come to Evan and initiate things, that their relationship really starts? That's definitely the point at which it becomes a MUCH more self-serving set of affairs for Evan than it had been up until that point, since he takes advantage in a very conscious way of Zoe's finally reciprocating his feelings based on this lie, but I still feel like, even then, I wouldn't so much say that he *initiates* it. 

No doubt that the Evan/Zoe relationship is the most shaky of the moral grey area of the show, though. For me, though, it all comes back to the fact of how well established it is (both through the writing and Ben's performance) the extent of Evan's loneliness and serious mental health struggles. That he's not just some generally awful kid who's out to exploit a grieving family for the heck of it. Even his most self-serving choices feel like they come from a place of him so desperately needing that happiness to cling to, while at the same time I don't think the show ever does portray those actions as less terrible than they are... it's not like it sugar coats it or tries to hide how selfish it is. It's just that it also places legitimate mental health issues so much at the forefront that you're not left with a character who's a terrible person- just one who's actually a very good person but also very messed up emotionally and in need of help. 

And as someone who's had some mental health issues myself and made my fair share of really awful decisions - none quite so personal as the types Evan makes, but school-related stuff that was nevertheless still really bad - it's a REALLY deeply personal show for me... like, far more than any other show I've ever seen. I get if it's not for everyone though, but I just for one deeply appreciate that the story goes out of it's way to reside in the grey area on things rather than painting anything as black and white :) 

 

[RunningThatRoad]

Posted: 3/1/17 at 2:13am

@GavestonPS: 

Thanks for bringing up The Music Man; the comparison had never occurred to me and is a fantastic challenge to my thoughts on Evan Hansen. I unabashedly love The Music Man (partly for the show, partly because it's the first musical I was ever in), and you're right that there are a lot of parallels in Evan Hansen, which I had a lot of problems with. I've thought about it for a few hours, and I think there are a few reasons why TMM works for me but DEH doesn't.

First, the severity of the transgression is very different. Harold Hill is just trying to make a quick buck and tells the townspeople that he'll make a band. It's not a good thing to do (he's cheating them out of their hard-earned money!), but it's not emotionally damaging or anything. Evan's lie, on the other hand, is one of the cruelest things I can imagine doing to someone: constructing and then destroying a fantasy about who their dead child was.

Second, Harold Hill makes a choice to face the music; Evan only reveals his lie when he has to. There's a scene near the end of TMM where Marian urges Harold to leave town, and he has the chance to get away with the con without paying a price. Instead, Harold decides he has to stay and face the wrath of the whole town, proving that he's a changed man. Evan only reveals his lies when they become impossible to continue, and even then he never reveals his lies to the larger public he deceived.

Third, The Music Man shows you the good Harold does, whereas Dear Evan Hansen only tells you about it. Throughout TMM we see the good effects Harold has on the lives of the townspeople: Winthrop finds his confidence, the school board becomes a barbershop quartet, the women of the town become avid readers, etc. We see how Harold has changed their lives, and the reveal of his con doesn't invalidate those changes (e.g. Winthrop is still confident), so the forgiveness Harold receives in the end makes a bit more sense. In Evan Hansen, we do see how happy Evan makes the Murphy family while he's painting his portrait of Connor, but the revelation that Evan was lying robs them of that happiness. We only hear from Zoe in the last scene that the Murphy family ends up feeling better because of Evan's actions, and we never see that transformation on stage.

And finally, this is a small point, but in the end, Harold Hill actually delivers. At the climax of TMM, the boys' band performs, and although they kinda suck, their parents are actually completely satisfied. It turns out that while Harold attempted to con the town, he actually fails to con them and delivers a boys' band that meets their expectations.

I'm not sure if it's a convincing argument, but it's how I think about the difference between the two characters' journeys. Thoughts?

Updated On: 3/1/17 at 02:13 AM

[rebeccmam31]

Posted: 3/1/17 at 5:00am

RunningThatRoad said: "snl89 said: "In the end, of course the Murphy family certainly was under no obligation to forgive him or invite him back into their lives in any way (though I can understand how, with a year or so's time and distance, it wouldn't be too crazy that Zoe in particular might feel comfortable meeting up with him again briefly). But other than that...a kid in Evan's situation really doesn't need punishment. They need HELP and support to start feeling better in a way that's actually healthy, and that's pretty much the whole purpose of the story- to encourage people away from the idea that anyone who does bad things while struggling with mental illness is just some awful person who should be punished. That sometimes, what they need more than anything is just some compassion and to be assured that they're NOT the horrible person they think they are for having made those bad decisions."

Thanks for the thoughtful engagement, snl89. I agree with everything you say about the role of mental health in Evan's decisions, and I think the show and Ben Platt in particular go into overdrive to make sure this point is hammered home. And good for them; I can't remember a more honest portrayal of anxiety in musical theater.

For me, though, the immorality is all contained in the ending. Evan apologizes and actually admits himself in "Words Fail" that all of his challenges are not an excuse for his behavior. But then rather than face the real consequences of his actions, the show puts a thumb on the scale and makes it so that his actions actually helped the Murphy family. As a result, Evan never has to truly reckon with the impact of his actions on others, which is the real meaning of accountability.

A more honest ending, to my mind, would be one where Evan's lies are made public and the Murphy family never forgives him, but nevertheless he picks himself up and continues on and tries to atone as best he can anyway. Sometimes we really can't ever fix what we've done wrong, and I feel pretty strongly that constructing a web of lies to the family of a dead child for personal gain usually ends up in that category. Unfortunately, that doesn't make for a soaring, feel-good ending, and it left me with the feeling that the ending was, in Scarywarhol's words, "almost comically unearned"."

 

When I first saw the show (in previews at Second Stage), that was how it ended.  Zoe alludes to how people were very hard on Evan for a while and he indicates that it was tough but that he knows he deserved it.  When I saw it again on Broadway that had changed, and my daughter (14) and I were both bothered by that.  Nevertheless, we are taking yet another teen to see it because despite my dissatisfaction with that change, I really love the show.

[dramamama611]

Posted: 3/1/17 at 7:27am

^I KNEW something was different about the ending, but couldn't put my finger on what!  Thanks you.

[3NU]

Posted: 3/1/17 at 10:20am

I'd first like to re-iterate how grateful I am for this board.  It's refreshing to find a BroadwayWorld board where people are honestly and respectfully discussing (and disagreeing on) the interpretations of a show that has obviously touched people deeply and personally.

I wanted to follow up on two ideas that have come up again and again on this forum.

First, the argument has been made that Evan was somehow coming from a place of good intentions when he entered into this lie with the Murphys.  While there is some merit to this argument, I feel very uncomfortable using that as justification for any of his actions.  For one, I think Evan was influenced by (and acted out of) fear more than anything else in responding to the Murphys the way he did initially (once again drawing on the "sun" theme here).  I may be in the minority on this one, but I don't believe what Evan did can be justifiable -- even from the beginning.  While this gets into the larger moral question of, "When is it okay to tell a lie to 'protect' someone?", by saying that Evan went into the lie with good intentions runs the risk of having to point to the turning point in the narrative in which Evan went from "helping the Murphys" to helping himself.  Evan's actions deeply affect the Murphys from the beginning, made very apparent in "Requiem".  In that song, Zoe questions herself as to whether it is wrong to not mourn the brother that she only knew as cruel and unloving just because his supposed best friend says he was actually a good person; this song, for me, represents one of the most emotionally grueling parts of the musical and further solidifies for me why no part of Evan's lie can be seen as okay.  I would argue that the musical makes it pretty clear -- especially given Evan's resolution with himself at the end -- that entering into a lie can have disastrous results (both for oneself and others) and thus searching for comfort in that lie can be just as disastrous.  That's not to say, of course, that the musical villianizes Evan.  To the contrary, it showers him with immense grace (to some, too much grace).  But, at least to me, justifying his actions is really treading on dangerous territory.  The focus should be far more on Evan's journey and final resolution, as that really makes the question of whether what he did was okay or not a moot point.

Secondly, I feel strongly that it is wrong to claim that the Murphys reached a place of healing because of Evan's actions.  No, the Murphys reached a place of healing in spite of Evan's actions.  They chose to find peace amongst the storm and were better off because of it.  In other words, the Murphys utilized their agency to move on.  I think this is an important distinction to make because it's not just a narrative argument -- it's a deeply personal one, as well.  While I can't speak for others, I know there have been times in my life where I was deeply hurt by someone, but in the midst of the horrible circumstances, I found a way to forgive them.  Just because I faced circumstances -- caused by what that person did to me -- that put me in a position to grow (a position that I may not have otherwise found myself in), I would not say that that person caused me to reach a place of healing.  Moreover, accepting that Evan's actions did not cause the Murphys' healing makes it far easier to accept that Evan's actions are not justified.  As such, Evan's actions are not excusable, and he knows the weight of those actions, which, in turn, makes the musical's ending far more powerful.

[Liza's Headband]

Posted: 3/1/17 at 11:52am

It amazes me when people think they know the show better than the actual writers. Good lord, ya'll are insufferable. 

[elephantseye]

Posted: 3/1/17 at 12:29pm

Liza's Headband said: "It amazes me when people think they know the show better than the actual writers. Good lord, ya'll are insufferable."

 

No disrespect meant, but I haven't seen anyone here claiming that. How is analyzing lyrics, or digging deeper into the text, or disagreeing with character choices any different than doing a close read of any other literary work? I can write an essay about Hamlet without that implying that I know the play better than Shakespeare.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 3/1/17 at 12:31pm

^^^^ Scroll bar broken again, Headband? You prefer what--posters who DON'T think about what they see?

***

RunningThatRoad, those are all great points, and we could add a fifth distinction in that THE MUSIC MAN is carefully set at a safe distance in the imaginary world of early-20th-century Iowa, whereas DEH is set HERE and NOW. Thank you for taking the time to think about the two shows (I too love TMM and think it's highly underrated) and to share your thoughts with us.

My primary point was just that underneath the current events, DEH has a pretty traditional premise. And Evan receives the same comeuppance as most "romantic imposters": he is unmasked. 

[snl89]

Posted: 3/1/17 at 3:19pm

3NU said: "For one, I think Evan was influenced by (and acted out of) fear more than anything else in responding to the Murphys the way he did initially (once again drawing on the "sun" theme here)."

I completely see your point on this one, 3NU- I think it is totally fair to say that his initial reaction was one of fear of having to tell the Murphys something that would upset them even more. 

But I'm curious, what is your take on the scene before For Forever? For me, that feels like the moment where Evan genuinely wants to offer some amount of comfort to them- especially to Cynthia, who is obviously wanting so badly to remember some good things about Connor but Zoe and Larry won't indulge her. So I see that as more of a point where Evan goes from just wanting to avoid confrontation of sorts with them to actually wanting to help them feel better. And that's not to say he does it in a justifiable way- it's only to say that I don't see any ulterior motives in that scene for why he would jump in with a story about this "great day" that he and Connor had. Sure, of course he has a crush on Zoe, but I don't think there's anything about that scene to suggest that that's even on his mind in the moment. Of course, this is just my take, so I'm curious to hear your thoughts! 

 

3NU said "I would argue that the musical makes it pretty clear -- especially given Evan's resolution with himself at the end -- that entering into a lie can have disastrous results (both for oneself and others) and thus searching for comfort in that lie can be just as disastrous.  That's not to say, of course, that the musical villianizes Evan.  To the contrary, it showers him with immense grace (to some, too much grace).  But, at least to me, justifying his actions is really treading on dangerous territory.  The focus should be far more on Evan's journey and final resolution, as that really makes the question of whether what he did was okay or not a moot point."

This is all very valid as well, and see, for me what it comes down to is that I don't think seeing his intentions as at least not NOT well meaning (for lack of a better way to put it) is the same thing as justifying his actions. I would certainly hope that no one would ignore the fact that, no matter WHAT his intentions going in, and even the self serving nature of what he did aside, lying in order to make them feel better was never the right or justifiable way to go about things. 

But on the same token, one of the things that I personally appreciate so much about the show is that it DOES acknowledge this fact, and has Evan acknowledge it outright in the end, while still not denying him that level of grace and acknowledgment that sometimes even good people can do really hurtful/unjustifiable things especially when they are not in a good place themselves. I think that often, it's so easy for people to judge others in a very black and white way, where a person's bad choices have them deemed by others as a "bad person" who's undeserving of any kind of grace or redemption.

And to me, that's what DEH does so well: it actively fights against that kind of judgement and says "yes, we ALL could potentially end up doing something genuinely hurtful and wrong. Anxiety and depression and loneliness - and mental health issues in general- can all lead to some pretty nasty outcomes, and it's important not to DENY the severity of those outcomes, but it's also equally important to have compassion for what people might be going through that could lead them to that point. The two need not- and really shouldn't- be mutually exclusive. Having compassion for the Evans in the world doesn't mean denying that their mistakes are any less legitimately harmful and even cruel than they are. 

3NU said: "Secondly, I feel strongly that it is wrong to claim that the Murphys reached a place of healing because of Evan's actions. No, the Murphys reached a place of healing in spite of Evan's actions. They chose to find peace amongst the storm and were better off because of it.  In other words, the Murphys utilized their agency to move on.  I think this is an important distinction to make because it's not just a narrative argument -- it's a deeply personal one, as well.  While I can't speak for others, I know there have been times in my life where I was deeply hurt by someone, but in the midst of the horrible circumstances, I found a way to forgive them.  Just because I faced circumstances -- caused by what that person did to me -- that put me in a position to grow (a position that I may not have otherwise found myself in), I would not say that that person caused me to reach a place of healing.  Moreover, accepting that Evan's actions did not cause the Murphys' healing makes it far easier to accept that Evan's actions are not justified.  As such, Evan's actions are not excusable, and he knows the weight of those actions, which, in turn, makes the musical's ending far more powerful "

I'm not sure if this might have been in response to some of my comments or to other peoples' comments, but it's a really good point, and makes me realize that I should probably clarify what I've said previously! 

In a previous post, I'd said: "some of the things he said and did for them might still have held some healing truth in there." And I think that's an important point to clarify that, in saying that, I didn't mean to imply that Evan's actions in themselves did help the Murphys in healing. Only that, yes, despite (and not because of) how wrong those actions were, there might have been certain elements of those lies that the Murphys could choose to gain something from. 

For instance, I'm thinking of Zoe in particular and how it probably WOULD be healing for her to get to a place of being able to consider that Connor might not have been the monster she had (understandably) felt like he was, but rather a really troubled kid whose own mental health issues got in the way of him being able to connect with her in the way she wished he had. Now obviously that isn't what Evan said to her- what he did was use her questions about Connor as a way to express how he himself felt about her which was a tooootally different and unjustifiable thing to do. But nevertheless, once she knew the truth, I can see how she might have been able to take, from all of that, some amount of honest closure in saying "I'll never be able to really know how Connor felt about me, but always being angry at him hurts, so for my own well being I can choose to be at peace with the fact that he was just too far away and going through his own issues for us to have connected." And that comes down to HER own agency in the situation- that she took from the experience what SHE had needed in order to heal. 

For me, when she says "we all needed it", in the end, I don't so much think she is actually saying "what you did was justifiable" (though obviously Evan also makes a point to say "it still wasn't okay" - I think what she's getting at there is more that agency that they were ultimately able to take from the experience. On some level, I think they all probably knew from the beginning that Evan's story didn't add up- but they chose to believe it not because of Evan, but because of the honest healing that was happening *despite* the lies. Because, even while she was still in the midst of Evan's lies, letting go of some of that anger that she had for Connor probably WAS really good for her, and on some level she probably knew that was her own choice to be making that step more so than it was that she fully buying into Evan's story. That wouldn't have made it any less hurtful to have Evan come straight out and admit he was lying, of course, but I just think that's where she ultimately is at in that final scene, having had a good long while to process and reflect on it. 

Updated On: 3/1/17 at 03:19 PM

[3NU]

Posted: 3/1/17 at 11:05pm

I appreciate your well thought-out analysis, snl89.  It's certainly given me a lot to chew on and process.

Addressing the scene before "For Forever", you bring up a valid point.  For me, I read the scene as Evan just being way too over his head.  Yes, I believe Evan honestly felt like he was helping the Murphys, but at the same time, his actions raise the question of, "Is it ever okay to tell a lie in order to protect/help someone, especially in their suffering?"  This is an inherently moral question that people will disagree on.  In my view, even if Evan had stopped at the made-up story, if that lie had been revealed, it still would have hurt the Murphys deeply.  So, while I agree that he had no ulterior motives, per se, his actions were ultimately unwise, regardless of motive.  Given that we're all capable of being unwise -- we're human after all! -- it's not a blatant conviction of Evan.  Though, I think the musical warns us that unwise actions can be the seed to blatantly immoral actions.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 3/2/17 at 5:34pm

An additional thought about a play I still haven't seen, and not a reply to any post above:

It occurs to me that we accept (and even root a little for) "romantic imposters" because on some level we are aware that NONE of us is entirely honest with a new love interest. We wear our best clothes, we try to be more thoughtful, we bathe more often and wear cologne, we're nice to her parents, we try to like her friends, we may even adopt shared interests that previously bored us, etc. and so forth.

The "romantic imposter" is an ancient theatrical figure and, as extreme as it can be in TOOTSIE and THE MOST HAPPY FELLA, we recognize a grain of truth in the premise. (In DEH, the stakes seem to be raised too high for the sympathy of some spectators and, surely, we can all understand why.)

[green waver]

Posted: 3/3/17 at 1:42pm

Just a point of clarification concerning your vert interesting post, RTR. In The Music Man, isn't it at least implied that Marion has been quietly working with the band? Hill has zero musical training, right?

[cam5y]

Posted: 3/3/17 at 1:57pm

3NU, I'd just like to thank you for articulating so clearly what made me somewhat uncomfortable with DEH. Ben Platt's performance is absolutely extraordinary and I certainly haven't seen another this good this year, I very much hope he wins the Tony. And the songs are great, they are beautiful in just about every respect. But I was not especially moved and felt uncomfortable throughout, and that is because it was all based on a deeply painful lie. 

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 3/3/17 at 9:29pm

green waver said: "Just a point of clarification concerning your vert interesting post, RTR. In The Music Man, isn't it at least implied that Marion has been quietly working with the band? Hill has zero musical training, right?

 

"

I've done the play and seen it countless times. I don't recall any implication that Marian works with the band. She plays and teaches piano, of course, but that hardly qualifies her to create a marching band. She's a librarian, not a full-time music teacher.

You are right, however, that Hill has zero musical training. Hill doesn't even try to lead the band until Marian forces him to do so in the final scene. That the "think system" kind of works is a surprise to Hill most of all.

It's a comic-fantasy reversal, and very American. Turns out anyone can be a musician if he BELIEVES he can. Maybe it's Marion's confidence in handing Hill the baton that makes you think she has been secretly working with the band--but like some of the posts in this thread, there is a problem in seeing comic or even tragic characters as real people.

If Marian has the skills to create and lead a marching band, why wasn't there a band in River City when Harold Hill first arrived? The "problem" in the play is that Hill can sell enthusiasm, uniforms and instruments, but not the knowledge to use them. If Marian can simply step in for him, there's no problem in his skipping town.

Updated On: 3/3/17 at 09:29 PM