Dear Evan Hansen issue...- Page 4

[wonderfulwizard11]

Posted: 4/28/17 at 9:23am

Yeah- I full-on cried a few times off-Broadway so I appreciate that people emotionally connect to it, but it's honestly sort of baffling to me how barely any review brought up any of these plot holes. They felt so obvious and glaring to me almost immediately after I saw it. 

[VotePeron]

Posted: 4/28/17 at 9:25am

As someone who has dealt with a severe, diagnosed anxiety disorder for the past 6 years, I too feel very polarized by the musical and it's attempt to comment on mental illness and suicide's place in modern society without taking any responsibility for how it is handled. I have seen the show multiple times in attempt to understand where they intend on coming from, but I feel remarkably displaced and alienated each time.

The creators and cast have stated over and over that Evan's illness is unclassified - so to all the posters assuming the show intends him autistic, etc, you are wrong. By having Evan referred to as "socially anxious" is a severe disservice, as his condition is obviously much more intense than that - he tries to kill himself - this is not an example of someone who is merely socially anxious.

There is no justice for Connor Murphy, and no repercussions for Evan Hansen -the theme of "You Will be Found" quite literally appears out of nowhere, and does nothing to solve any of the shows core problems. What is the actual theme of this show? I would argue an extreme answer could be: "lying will cure your anxiety/mental illness," as in the final scene we meet Evan one year later - new sense of style, his ticks are gone, he's self proclaimed "better," and hasn't had to answer for his actions.

It's come to the point where I just accept that people like this show, but damn do I feel it is flawed and at times, sending dangerous messages about ways to cope with mental illness. I think it stems from the fact that I assumed I was supposed to relate to Evan Hansen more than anyone, but I literally want nothing to do with him. I can't stand him, truly. 

Just my thoughts. You don't have to like them, but please, do not ever say "It resonates with everyone who sees it (even those who may not like it) in very deep, textured and nuanced ways." again, and like our antihero Evan Hansen, you are lying to yourself and hiding from the truth. 

[VotePeron]

Posted: 4/28/17 at 9:26am

(double post)

[froote]

Posted: 4/28/17 at 9:35am

Great post VotePeron, couldn't agree more.

[MyLife]

Posted: 4/28/17 at 9:57am

Yes, thank you VotePeron, little_sally, and wonderfulwizard. It's been very hard to argue this to friends of mine who have seen it and rave about it, and even harder to explain my qualms with the show to friends of mine who haven't seen it and expect to love it.

I find I enjoy listening to the music outside of the scope of the show more than within the scope. You Will Be Found is a great song. But in the show, it's a round piece trying to fit into a square peg. It doesn't fit.

Updated On: 4/28/17 at 09:57 AM

Posted: 4/28/17 at 10:01am

I have to agree with VotePeron. I have struggled with anxiety my whole life, but Evan's actions are inexcusable in my opinion. Evan being excused for his actions is ridiculous.

[little_sally]

Posted: 4/28/17 at 10:05am

MyLife said: "Yes, thank you VotePeron, little_sally, and wonderfulwizard. It's been very hard to argue this to friends of mine who have seen it and rave about it, and even harder to explain my qualms with the show to friends of mine who haven't seen it and expect to love it.

I saw it shortly after it opened so I was fully on board to love it but so much of it rang false, especially the characters' reactions to things.

[Valyitz]

Posted: 4/28/17 at 10:19am

VotePeron said: "What is the actual theme of this show? I would argue an extreme answer could be: "lying will cure your anxiety/mental illness," as in the final scene we meet Evan one year later - new sense of style, his ticks are gone, he's self proclaimed "better," and hasn't had to answer for his actions."

Just because I am curious, what would you have wanted to see happen for Evan to "answer for his actions"?

I have only seen the show once a few months ago when I was in NYC so I don't remember all the details of the book. But while I too left the theatre feeling a bit underwhelmed compared to my expectations mainly because I did not feel the "You Will Be Found" type messaging had fit with the rest of the piece (which I enjoyed and appreciate more and more for the darkness and complexity of the situation), from how I interpreted it, I felt that Evan did come to understand the impact of what he had done and feel deep regret for it. I would have liked to see more of how the other characters were impacted later, and as someone mentioned Zoe saying that the Murphys had been brought together by the lie rang quite false - but I did not feel the need to see any further narrative "punishment" for Evan and didn't felt like I got a "lying was fine" message just from seeing him in a better place in the finale.

So I am just curious what direction you would have wanted to take it :)

I love this thread by the way, it is so fascinating to read all this detailed discussion and different views!

Updated On: 4/28/17 at 10:19 AM

[poisonivy2]

Posted: 4/28/17 at 10:37am

Just out of curiosity, how would you have expected Connor's family to react? Would they have sued Evan? Arrested him? That would not have been consistent with their characterization throughout the musical. They aren't mean, spiteful people. I think part of the power of the show is watching Evan feel remorse for lying to such nice, well-meaning people.

At the end of the musical Evan's relationship with the Murphy's is severed. He didn't get Connor's college funds. He's working and going to junior college. His meeting with Zoe is brief and a little awkward. Yes, life does sort of go on for Evan and everyone else, but IMO that's real life. Having Evan carted off to jail or sued or shamed publicly would have been very inconsistent with the characterization of the Murphy's.

[Alex Kulak2]

Posted: 4/28/17 at 10:47am

I know the story doesn't have a resolution, but having read Steven Levenson's other plays, that makes sense. I think it fits Evan's personality. As someone with social anxiety, I've been through a lot of what Evan's been through. Evan knows he's probably never going to get better. He'll never be comfortable around others, he'll never have a lot of friends. To him, he'll always be broken. The fact that it ends so harshly and so darkly is the only kind of ending Evan's ever perceived. It's a sad ending, but at the end, Evan seems to reach a resolution, that despite it all, he is himself, and that will be enough.

[dramamama611]

Posted: 4/28/17 at 10:49am

There can be no justice for Connor....he took his own life, his hand, his choice.

[PaulWom]

Posted: 4/28/17 at 10:50am

Alex Kulak2 said: "I know the story doesn't have a resolution, but having read Steven Levenson's other plays, that makes sense. I think it fits Evan's personality. As someone with social anxiety, I've been through a lot of what Evan's been through. Evan knows he's probably never going to get better. He'll never be comfortable around others, he'll never have a lot of friends. To him, he'll always be broken. The fact that it ends so harshly and so darkly is the only kind of ending Evan's ever perceived. It's a sad ending, but at the end, Evan seems to reach a resolution, that despite it all, he is himself, and that will be enough.

 

"

How is it a sad ending? Zoey forgives him and says he has helped them (which is ridiculous and frankly offensive IMO)

[Alex Kulak2]

Posted: 4/28/17 at 10:59am

I think the sadness is in the lack of resolution. He didn't get to be with Zoe. His mom probably still works like crazy and can never see him. Jared probably doesn't talk to him anymore. He probably isn't any better at talking to others than he was at the start of the show.

[Alex Kulak2]

Posted: 4/28/17 at 11:01am

That's the thing about living with Social Anxiety. It doesn't end with "So Big/So Small", where you hug your loved ones and feel like things are alright. It goes on the next day and the day after and so on and so on, and you have to keep promising yourself every day that things have gotten and will get better.

[PaulWom]

Posted: 4/28/17 at 11:06am

Ok, but I have lived with social anxiety as well, and that's not an excuse for despicable actions. At the end of the show he is FORGIVEN by his mom, Zoey, and her family. Even worse, he is told that his actions have actually IMPROVED their lives. 

 

I would have assumed not being with Zoey is a given. He has ruined her (and her family's) life and given them false hope. I don't really feel bad that he doesn't get to be with her.

 

[PaulWom]

Posted: 4/28/17 at 11:11am

I have to admit, the first time I saw the show, I was a fan. The second time I saw it, I became keenly aware of the tricks and emotional manipulation the authors use to make you feel for characters who frankly do not deserve our support.

[mfaye9]

Posted: 4/28/17 at 11:14am

Alex Kulak2 said: "I think the sadness is in the lack of resolution. He didn't get to be with Zoe. His mom probably still works like crazy and can never see him. Jared probably doesn't talk to him anymore. He probably isn't any better at talking to others than he was at the start of the show.

"

Yep, agreeing with PaulWom above, the issue here is that these actually aren't very big consequences for the lies Evan told and pushed over the course of the show. "Jared probably doesn't talk to him anymore" does not exactly equate to lying to a family to make them thing that people cared about their son who just committed suicide, and then using that lie for personal gain. Moreover, as mentioned above, he is forgiven and pretty much thanked by Zoey and Co. Yes, he is able to wake up and be happy with himself, but at what cost? I don't see much of one besides figuring out that lying will get you where you need to be.

 

[3NU]

Posted: 4/28/17 at 12:17pm

Honestly, I think a lot of the issues mentioned above could have been resolved if the script never had Zoe say that Evan's actions brought the family closer together.  That plot contrivance is not only unfounded and unearned, but it's also incredibly insulting to what the Murphy family just went through as characters (it undermines their pain and the consequences of Evan's actions).  I personally reconciled this issue by assuming Zoe meant that the Murphy family forgave Evan in spite of the awful things he did because they saw a bit of what Connor went through in Evan.  If that sentiment had been made explicit in the script, I feel some who are currently uncomfortable with the show may find it more digestible.

I still contend, however, that the biggest problem in DEH (as others have brought up here) is the promotion of #YouWillBeFound.  If #YouWillBeFound is truly the message of the show, then no wonder some see DEH as promoting the fact that Evan's lie is justifiable (particularly given what Zoe says at the end).  I find "Disappear" and "You Will Be Found" to be the most disturbing songs in the show, not on the basis of the songs' content itself but rather on the fact that they've become fodder for people to claim that what's being promoted in those songs are what we're supposed to take away from DEH.  In the context of show's narrative, those songs are intimately intertwined with the lie Evan created for himself (i.e., despite the positive messages being portrayed in the songs themselves, the character's intent behind putting forth such messages is really twisted, to say the least); so is #YouWillBeFound really the most appropriate message to be taking away from the show? 

What we are supposed to take away from DEH, I argue, is the fact that Evan learns how "stepping into the sun" means facing the worst in oneself rather than creating the "perfect" life through a lie (given, ironically, that creating the "perfect" life revealed the worst in Evan, as was beautifully stated in "Words Fail" ). Yet that message gets completely lost in the mess of #YouWillBeFound and what the book writer has Zoe say at the end.

Updated On: 4/28/17 at 12:17 PM

[akmiller_98]

Posted: 4/28/17 at 12:54pm

I totally agree with everything 3NU said! The only thing that drives me crazy about the show is what Zoe says at the end.

And I don't think the Murphy's would have anything to gain by outing Evan's lie. They are mature adult parents. Why would they ruin another kid's life? I can't see one good thing that would come of it. 

And as for the message of You Will Be Found, Ira Glass asked Michael Grief about the mixed message of how it is used in the play and how people are spinning the message. And Michael Grief did say, "[the song] is the most ironic of all the ironies in the show." They address it at 31:00 in this interview.
http://92yondemand.org/dear-evan-hansen-ben-platt-michael-greif-conversation-ira-glass

[jonlow09]

Posted: 4/28/17 at 12:57pm

3NU said: "Honestly, I think a lot of the issues mentioned above could have been resolved if the script never had Zoe say that Evan's actions brought the family closer together.  That plot contrivance is not only unfounded and unearned, but it's also incredibly insulting to what the Murphy family just went through as characters (it undermines their pain and the consequences of Evan's actions).  I personally reconciled this issue by assuming Zoe meant that the Murphy family forgave Evan in spite of the awful things he did because they saw a bit of what Connor went through in Evan.  If that sentiment had been made explicit in the script, I feel some who are currently uncomfortable with the show may find it more digestible.

I still contend, however, that the biggest problem in DEH (as others have brought up here) is the promotion of #YouWillBeFound.  If #YouWillBeFound is truly the message of the show, then no wonder some see DEH as promoting the fact that Evan's lie is justifiable (particularly given what Zoe says at the end).  I find "Disappear" and "You Will Be Found" to be the most disturbing songs in the show, not on the basis of the songs' content itself but rather on the fact that they've become fodder for people to claim that what's being promoted in those songs are what we're supposed to take away from DEH.  In the context of show's narrative, those songs are intimately intertwined with the lie Evan created for himself (i.e., despite the positive messages being portrayed in the songs themselves, the character's intent behind putting forth such messages is really twisted, to say the least); so is #YouWillBeFound really the most appropriate message to be taking away from the show? 

What we are supposed to take away from DEH, I argue, is the fact that Evan learns how "stepping into the sun" means facing the worst in oneself rather than creating the "perfect" life through a lie (given, ironically, that creating the "perfect" life revealed the worst in Evan, as was beautifully stated in "Words Fail" ). Yet that message gets completely lost in the mess of #YouWillBeFound and what the book writer has Zoe say at the end.

 

"

Slow clap. Much more eloquent than what I've been trying to say for months.

 

[BakerWilliams]

Posted: 4/28/17 at 1:02pm

VotePeron has probably the best response in this thread.

The fact is that most people who are severely depressed and anxious seem like perfectly normal people, often the brightest and happiest of all people. Equation of external and internal emotionality within the show is genuinely dangerous because it encourages people to be uncritical of the mental states of their peers unless they are very physically obviously depressed or anxious. 

Then there's Connor, a kid who the writers decide is basically worthless because he was rude in life. The kid kills himself and then in the very next scene he is presented as a joke. 

[Alex Kulak2]

Posted: 4/28/17 at 1:12pm

I remember reading on another thread that in the early workshops, the Murphy's tell everyone what Evan did, and he's spent the past year being crucified online. Would this have been possibly a better ending? It wouldn't have forgiven what Evan did, but it would have given him some comeuppance. 

[PaulWom]

Posted: 4/28/17 at 1:16pm

And as for the message of You Will Be Found, Ira Glass asked Michael Grief about the mixed message of how it is used in the play and how people are spinning the message. And Michael Grief did say, "[the song] is the most ironic of all the ironies in the show." They address it at 31:00 in this interview.
http://92yondemand.org/dear-evan-hansen-ben-platt-michael-greif-conversation-ira-glass

 

"

This makes me sick to my stomach. Not that Grief has this opinion (it is definitely a valid one, and artists are entitled to their own opinions), but that the producers , knowing the actual intention of You Will Be Found, have marketed #YouWillBeFound as a message of hope and empowerment . Shame on them

[wonderfulwizard11]

Posted: 4/28/17 at 1:16pm

I'm not saying I think that should happen, but I don't understand how this lie goes big and viral and yet no one ever finds out that it's all fake. For all the talk of how the show gets social media right, the fact that it's barely hinted at is a big mis-step. 

[3NU]

Posted: 4/28/17 at 1:21pm

I initially thought this too, but then I remembered how the social media world has a notoriously short memory.  If the Murphys never said anything, the story likely just died out.