Dear Evan Hansen issue... — Page 3

I really appreciate this thread and the discussion. I think if you look closely enough at any musical you will find holes and inconsistencies. Most musicals deal in themes and archtypes and DEH is really no different in that respect.

I'm not sure people are honing in on his dishonesty. I think that is a secondary theme. I think people are relating to their own feelings of disconnection and loss and find empathy and understanding in the piece.

Most people can relate to a time when they have felt "other" and most probably have a time where they made a poor choice or hurt someone out of strong desire to connect or feel validated.

If Evan hadn't gone viral his little lie might never have hurt anyone. It might have just run its course, soothed a few people and then the future would have played out. However, there is a parable in this piece, so that was not to be.

Evan most certainly isn't a psychopath, but in today's social media judge and jury world if someone read a headline on facebook about a teen doing that he would be vilified and crucified. We so rarely stop to think about the actual flesh and blood person. His mother would also be vilified, "what is wrong with her?" "why isn't she paying attention to him?" "why didn't she get him help?" I love the musical briefly touches on this as the Murphys are crucified by strangers who do not give them the empathy of real people.

The musical for me, highlights the adage that everyone we encounter is fighting a battle we know nothing about. Compassion rather than judgment heals. Everyone in that show has demons and needs to feel seen, heard, witnessed and understood. At the end, Evan can finally say he is ok being with himself and that he is enough after years of trying to find his father and mother's validation through others. That is no small miracle.

Whatever it is, it's really not a "little lie".

Updated On: 3/4/17 at 08:06 PM

GavestonPS said: "DEH seems Greek in design. Evan does what seems to him a kindness, not an error: he poses as Connor's friend to bring comfort to the Murphys. But in the Greek sense, the pose is very much an error in understanding: Evan lacks the knowledge that his lie will spin out of control. (Yes, lying is also a sin, but the Greeks thought sin resulted from ignorance, not moral perversion.) His reversal is that he is unmasked and disowned by his fake family; his recognition is that being himself is good enough, even good enough to be loved."

I love this interpretation! I think that (although the end result is the same) the distinction between ignorance and moral perversion is an important one to make. I wouldn't be able to identify with or sympathize with a teenage boy who sets out to hook up with a dead boy's sister by fabricating a friendship with him. A teenager who has been ostracized his whole life, struggles with mental illness, and genuinely tries to do what he thinks is the right thing (all the while being encourage and pressured by Alana and Jared to keep it going) is a very different character. Also, based off of how I read Ben Platt's performance, Evan falls somewhere on the autistic spectrum. If he has Asperger's, for example, he would have an extremely hard time understanding what his initial lie could spiral in to until he is faced with the consequences head on.

Having watched Ben's performance three times now (which was superb each time), I think the problem is Evan gets no comeuppance. He gets no real penalty, giving the audience no real reason to be on his side or root for him in the end. When all is said and done, Evan ends up exactly where he would've ended up had the whole story never've happened. He's in junior college working a part-time job. He's not destitute. He's not shamed or a pariah or kicked out of his house. He began w/ no friends; he ends w/ no friends. He was a loner in the beginning; he's a loner at the end. He loses a girlfriend he never really had and her family to which he never really belonged. His mother does not reject or chide him but hugs him. Zoe does not slap him but thanks him. He seems more centered at the end, so he's actually better off for having told the lie. I'm left thinking, Wow - he came out of this pretty good. Lucky-ass wuss.

All shows have flaws - it's just that this one seems so obvious and so easily fixable that it makes things frustrating.

Great discussion here and even more wonderful performances from the DEH cast!

I love this interpretation! I think that (although the end result is the same) the distinction between ignorance and moral perversion is an important one to make. I wouldn't be able to identify with or sympathize with a teenage boy who sets out to hook up with a dead boy's sister by fabricating a friendship with him. A teenager who has been ostracized his whole life, struggles with mental illness, and genuinely tries to do what he thinks is the right thing (all the while being encourage and pressured by Alana and Jared to keep it going) is a very different character. Also, based off of how I read Ben Platt's performance, Evan falls somewhere on the autistic spectrum. If he has Asperger's, for example, he would have an extremely hard time understanding what his initial lie could spiral in to until he is faced with the consequences head on.



I think this this point - that Evan is on the autistic spectrum - may be what is missed by those who feel his actions were "psychopathic" or "sociopathic" or otherwise unforgivable. Unless you have direct experience with someone on the spectrum or work in psych, you would have no reason to know that people on the spectrum often lack empathy. They don't understand the impact their actions have on others. It's not that they don't care, they don't understand and definitely don't foresee. It's a developmental disorder rather than a mental illness. But I agree it's problematic that the book doesn't really get this across.

My struggle with the show - though I love it overall - is the notion that "we are all found" and "no one is really alone" when Connor was indeed alone. No one understood him, few cared for him (his family surely did but didn't know how to reach him) and he had no friends or community - his "being found" was based on a lie. So it's difficult for me to wholly buy into the message when a lonely, depressed teen killed himself and was never really redeemed. Frankly everything that happened only underscored how truly alone he was.



"

Nycat63 said: "

I love this interpretation! I think that (although the end result is the same) the distinction between ignorance and moral perversion is an important one to make. I wouldn't be able to identify with or sympathize with a teenage boy who sets out to hook up with a dead boy's sister by fabricating a friendship with him. A teenager who has been ostracized his whole life, struggles with mental illness, and genuinely tries to do what he thinks is the right thing (all the while being encourage and pressured by Alana and Jared to keep it going) is a very different character. Also, based off of how I read Ben Platt's performance, Evan falls somewhere on the autistic spectrum. If he has Asperger's, for example, he would have an extremely hard time understanding what his initial lie could spiral in to until he is faced with the consequences head on.



I think this this point - that Evan is on the autistic spectrum - may be what is missed by those who feel his actions were "psychopathic" or "sociopathic" or otherwise unforgivable. Unless you have direct experience with someone on the spectrum or work in psych, you would have no reason to know that people on the spectrum often lack empathy. They don't understand the impact their actions have on others. It's not that they don't care, they don't understand and definitely don't foresee. It's a developmental disorder rather than a mental illness. But I agree it's problematic that the book doesn't really get this across.

My struggle with the show - though I love it overall - is the notion that "we are all found" and "no one is really alone" when Connor was indeed alone. No one understood him, few cared for him (his family surely did but didn't know how to reach him) and he had no friends or community - his "being found" was based on a lie. So it's difficult for me to wholly buy into the message when a lonely, depressed teen killed himself and was never really redeemed. Frankly everything that happened only underscored how truly alone he was. "
"



Maybe that's why it doesn't bother me so much--I don't think the theme of the show is that "we are all found"; I think it's that we SHOULD all be found. Connor is not. At all. And that's a tragedy. Evan is not, totally, even at the end. But he's working on it. Connor's "being found" through the project is a big fake, and the kids involved in building the project are big fakes as well in different ways. They are also not "found." No one is *really* found in the course of the show, but the idea is introduced that they should be. I feel like that was enough for me.

rebeccmam31 said: "Nycat63 said: "

I love this interpretation! I think that (although the end result is the same) the distinction between ignorance and moral perversion is an important one to make. I wouldn't be able to identify with or sympathize with a teenage boy who sets out to hook up with a dead boy's sister by fabricating a friendship with him. A teenager who has been ostracized his whole life, struggles with mental illness, and genuinely tries to do what he thinks is the right thing (all the while being encourage and pressured by Alana and Jared to keep it going) is a very different character. Also, based off of how I read Ben Platt's performance, Evan falls somewhere on the autistic spectrum. If he has Asperger's, for example, he would have an extremely hard time understanding what his initial lie could spiral in to until he is faced with the consequences head on.



I think this this point - that Evan is on the autistic spectrum - may be what is missed by those who feel his actions were "psychopathic" or "sociopathic" or otherwise unforgivable. Unless you have direct experience with someone on the spectrum or work in psych, you would have no reason to know that people on the spectrum often lack empathy. They don't understand the impact their actions have on others. It's not that they don't care, they don't understand and definitely don't foresee. It's a developmental disorder rather than a mental illness. But I agree it's problematic that the book doesn't really get this across.

My struggle with the show - though I love it overall - is the notion that "we are all found" and "no one is really alone" when Connor was indeed alone. No one understood him, few cared for him (his family surely did but didn't know how to reach him) and he had no friends or community - his "being found" was based on a lie. So it's difficult for me to wholly buy into the message when a lonely, depressed teen killed himself and was never really redeemed. Frankly everything that happened only underscored how truly alone he was. "
"



Maybe that's why it doesn't bother me so much--I don't think the theme of the show is that "we are all found"; I think it's that we SHOULD all be found. Connor is not. At all. And that's a tragedy. Evan is not, totally, even at the end. But he's working on it. Connor's "being found" through the project is a big fake, and the kids involved in building the project are big fakes as well in different ways. They are also not "found." No one is *really* found in the course of the show, but the idea is introduced that they should be. I feel like that was enough for me.



"This is an interesting point Rebeccamam31, and one I could completely get on board with, but I felt they were trying to force the "everyone will be found" angle. Maybe as adults putting our own interpretation on it (and those of us who relate to some of it as parents) see it differently, but there is a huge demographic - teens, etc - who are missing that point and don't see it as a dark musical, rather an uplifting one. Maybe that's why I'm still struggling with it a bit.

I think that part of the problem may be the book's failure to explain that Evan is autistic. If I'm remembering correctly, there's very little to indicate this in the text itself; everything his mom says deals with depression. So the entirety of Evan's autism rests on the shoulders of Platt's performance, which leaves the issue open to interpretation. If you don't read his characterization that way, there's not much in the book to contradict that.

As for Connor, I agree that he's an exception to the 'you will be found' message. I feel like they relied on bringing him back in songs like "Sincerely, Me" to off-set the really, really depressing fact that a teenage boy killed himself in the first fifteen minutes. And they used him to guilt Evan out of telling the truth sooner. I think that their treatment of him, and the insincerity of Alana and Will, trying to capitalize on his death, are what really throws me off. There's a lot of emphasis placed on the fact that people who hated/ignored Connor when he was alive are suddenly grieving his death, but they never follow through on a condemnation of that.

It goes back to one of my earlier posts-- what, exactly, is the show trying to say? If it's 'you will be found', then who found Connor? And everyone on social media and in person suddenly being touched by Evan's speech seems like a commentary on social media culture/viral videos, but I'm still not sure exactly what the thesis is there. Is it that if you're sincere, like Evan eventually was in his speech, you can genuinely touch people? Or is it that, because social media helps escalate the lie, we should be wary of its effects and concerned that we become more outwardly sympathetic but less genuinely so behind a screen?

People at stage door kept saying things like "this is such an important show, really relevant, really important message people need to head" but no one actually articulated what that message was, I think in part to the fact that the show doesn't really know, itself. I loved DEH and was very touched by it, but as I return to the OBC and think about it more, I'm a bit unsure what I actually got out of it.

elephantseye said: "As for Connor, I agree that he's an exception to the 'you will be found' message. I feel like they relied on bringing him back in songs like "Sincerely, Me" to off-set the really, really depressing fact that a teenage boy killed himself in the first fifteen minutes. And they used him to guilt Evan out of telling the truth sooner. I think that their treatment of him, and the insincerity of Alana and Will, trying to capitalize on his death, are what really throws me off. There's a lot of emphasis placed on the fact that people who hated/ignored Connor when he was alive are suddenly grieving his death, but they never follow through on a condemnation of that.


It goes back to one of my earlier posts-- what, exactly, is the show trying to say? If it's 'you will be found', then who found Connor? And everyone on social media and in person suddenly being touched by Evan's speech seems like a commentary on social media culture/viral videos, but I'm still not sure exactly what the thesis is there. Is it that if you're sincere, like Evan eventually was in his speech, you can genuinely touch people? Or is it that, because social media helps escalate the lie, we should be wary of its effects and concerned that we become more outwardly sympathetic but less genuinely so behind a screen?

People at stage door kept saying things like "this is such an important show, really relevant, really important message people need to head" but no one actually articulated what that message was, I think in part to the fact that the show doesn't really know, itself. I loved DEH and was very touched by it, but as I return to the OBC and think about it more, I'm a bit unsure what I actually got out of it."

(emphasis mine)

You're absolutely hitting the nail on the head here. What you're saying is exactly why I am so uncomfortable with the songs "Disappear" and "You Will Be Found", which many claim to be uplifting. I still contend that "Requiem", "Words Fail", and "So Big/So Small" remain the emotional and thematic cruxes of a very dark musical (despite what others may make the musical out to be).

All of this, of course, is made all the more confusing (and ironic) by the fact that the DEH poster literally has #youwillbefound written on Evan's cast. I agree that "you will be found" is not the message of the show, and through this lens, the #youwillbefound hashtag is what the character of Evan (along with Alana and Will) are trying to promote (in a pretty perverse and utterly insincere way) through the narrative of the story. However, given how our culture interprets hashtags on promotional posters these days, I wouldn't be surprised if #youwillbefound is actually taken at face value as the lesson to be taken from DEH -- which would be really unfortunate and (as I mentioned before) severely ironic.

message fail

Updated On: 4/28/17 at 03:42 AM

GavestonPS said: "Dramatic characters are not real people!

If they were, then Oedipus is an arrogant blowhard; Blanche DuBois is a lousy houseguest who monopolizes the bathroom; Willy Loman is just an adulterer; Hamlet is a selfish brat who puts his own needs ahead of the needs of the Danes; M. Gallimard is a sexual idiot who can't tell a penis from a vagina; and Don Quijote is a schizophrenic with MPD.

(Usual disclaimer: I am judging the piece based on the recording and various synopses.)

What is Evan's great crime? He allows grieving people to believe what seems to make them feel better. And, yes, he benefits personally along the way. But I don't know how anybody can listen to "Words Fail" and insist he suffers no consequences. Losing everything when you've had a taste of it all is generally considered quite a punishment in the world of art (see the comeuppance of that great and intentional villain, Tartuffe).

Finally, I think it's a serious misreading of the play--even given what I can gleam from the album--to argue that Evan ends up exactly as he would have if the "Connor incident" had never occurred. He has clearly learned from his error and arrives at a new place by the time he says "It's a new day and I am myself. And that's good enough."

Whether he would have arrived there anyway is mere speculation and outside the play."

Evan's "crime" is not simply "allowing grieving people to believe what seems to make them feel better." In doing so, he creates a false narrative that distorts the legitimate memories that the family had of their son. It initially seems to make them feel better, but ultimately leaves them feeling worse, because this lovely, charming narrative of the orchard and the ice cream and the perfect day was all a lie. Connor never had that, with anyone.

I think that one of the most unearned aspects of the ending is when Zoe tells Evan that the whole ordeal has brought her family closer together, because everyone needed it for something. If that is the case, then the family has not really dealt with all the aspects of Evan's lie. I wouldn't argue that Evan has suffered no consequences, but I would argue that the effects on Evan are really secondary here. The important effects are those on the grieving family, and those are brushed over to a large extent.

^"It resonates with everyone who sees it (even those who may not like it) in very deep, textured and nuanced ways."

I have to disagree. Several people have spoken about flaws in the show that are too great that they prevent them from resonating with it. Some of these flaws seem frivolously overlooked. They are easily fixable but the show sailed from Second Stage to Broadway without addressing them. Why? Because people liked the show already they didn't think they needed to work on it more? This is one reason why I don't think DEH SHOULD win.

Yeah- I full-on cried a few times off-Broadway so I appreciate that people emotionally connect to it, but it's honestly sort of baffling to me how barely any review brought up any of these plot holes. They felt so obvious and glaring to me almost immediately after I saw it.