#TonysSoWhite ?- Page 6

[hork]

Posted: 6/15/17 at 9:51pm

Wayman_Wong said: "Hork: Earlier in this thread, I already posted the various reasons why I thought Llana was more deserving of being cast as the King (aside from being Tony eligible). I didn't feel I needed to repeat that.

 

But he was cast in it. Your only problem is that he wasn't eligible for a Tony, which just seems irrelevant to me.

 

[The Other One]

Posted: 6/15/17 at 10:01pm

wonderfulwizard11 said: "As is always the case in threads about race on BWW, I'm getting the distinct impression that a lot of the people talking about it are white (which to be clear, I am too). But when actors of color repeatedly talk about the hurdles they face to get work, maybe stop talking and believe them."

Are you an actor? Are friends of yours actors? Why don't you follow a culturally diverse group of actors around for a year and see if one group has it easier than any other. I bet you will find that no one has it easy at all.

 

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 6/15/17 at 10:40pm

But how many actors of color are brought in for roles like Dolly, Evan Hansen, etc. I assure you that very little are seen. They may pick the best out of the pool they are given, sure, but how many actors of color are in that pool? That's casting and opportunity, not talent.

And of course, it be awesome if there were more plays that spoke to the cultures of nonwhite individuals, but let's flip it the other way. Are shows with predominantly white casts about white culture? Is it integral that the Hansens and the Murphys are white? Is social anxiety and being a single mom taking college courses only a white person issue? Would white people connect to the piece as a whole if Evan Hansen were a black boy or Connor Murphy were an Asian boy? (If the score and book are indeed the best of the season, it would speak for itself.) Why do black, Asian, Latino actors ONLY have to play roles that are meant for their race and not just regular human beings?

Also, as pointed out by Wayman, there are still more white men who have won leading Tonys for playing Asian men than Asian men who have won Tonys for playing Asian men. The two Asian women who have won Tonys were in two of the several shows that Asian actors are ever brought in the room for (Miss Saigon, The King and I, Pacific Overtures, Flower Drum Song, South Pacific, small roles in Millie, Mame, and Anything Goes). What a plethora of opportunity for Asian actors! What a large number of award-worthy roles to choose from!

I'm sorry, it's just not the same difficulty being a white actor as it is being a nonwhite actor. While a white actor can go in for virtually every single audition, actors of color cannot and will not be seen for nearly as many shows, no matter what Actors' Equity forces shows to say about inclusion in a show's breakdown. The simple reality is that "the best for the role" is chosen from a pool of actors who are being seen for the role, and it's not equal opportunity no matter what you believe.

[Wayman_Wong]

Posted: 6/15/17 at 11:15pm

HeyMrMusic: Thanks for all your insightfulness and eloquence.

Hork: But Llana was not cast to OPEN ''The King and I.'' Do I really have to explain the difference between the honor and prestige of opening a show, as opposed to replacing someone (no matter how talented you are)? Besides the Tony eligibility (and all the other awards), you get the opening-night reviews and you're the actor of record who's usually identified with the show. In a musical, it also means you get to do the cast album for posterity. What's more, when you are cast as a star worthy of opening a show, it can lead to other opportunities, where you'll also be considered a star, and not a replacement. Maybe being Tony-eligible is ''irrelevant'' to you, but to many actors, a Tony nomination is a sign that you've made it, impressed your colleagues and are at the top of your profession.

Updated On: 6/15/17 at 11:15 PM

[VintageSnarker]

Posted: 6/15/17 at 11:40pm

HeyMrMusic said: "And of course, it be awesome if there were more plays that spoke to the cultures of nonwhite individuals, but let's flip it the other way. Are shows with predominantly white casts about white culture? Is it integral that the Hansens and the Murphys are white? Is social anxiety and being a single mom taking college courses only a white person issue? Would white people connect to the piece as a whole if Evan Hansen were a black boy or Connor Murphy were an Asian boy? (If the score and book are indeed the best of the season, it would speak for itself.) Why do black, Asian, Latino actors ONLY have to play roles that are meant for their race and not just regular human beings?"

Side note, not really on the subject of the Tonys anymore... I do think a lot of stories with predominantly white casts are attempting to be universal and so could be cast differently. But what about those stories about "white culture"? Both through word of mouth and also in reviews people often lament the sameness of a certain kind of play... maybe a drawing room comedy or a country house play or a family drama... you know what I mean. These same plays about Ivory tower intellectuals or neurotic yuppies. I'm not saying these stories can't be told but is it that the playwrights who get their work produced lack creativity or are stuck in the bubble of their own experience because to me it doesn't seem like there's a huge appetite for this work that's treading the same ground. 

[gypsy101]

Posted: 6/16/17 at 12:10am

wasn't there some diversity in the nominees, just not the winning actors? the #OscarsSoWhite controversy had to do with there literally being zero non-white acting nominees 

[hork]

Posted: 6/16/17 at 2:03am

Wayman_Wong said: "HeyMrMusic: Thanks for all your insightfulness and eloquence.

Hork: But Llana was not cast to OPEN ''The King and I.'' Do I really have to explain the difference between the honor and prestige of opening a show, as opposed to replacing someone (no matter how talented you are)? Besides the Tony eligibility (and all the other awards), you get the opening-night reviews and you're the actor of record who's usually identified with the show. In a musical, it also means you get to do the cast album for posterity. What's more, when you are cast as a star worthy of opening a show, it can lead to other opportunities, where you'll also be considered a star, and not a replacement. Maybe being Tony-eligible is ''irrelevant'' to you, but to many actors, a Tony nomination is a sign that you've made it, impressed your colleagues and are at the top of your profession.

All of which Ken Watanabe got. Only one actor gets this opportunity per show, and it happened to be him. Just because you think Llana deserved it more doesn't make it so. You seem to think there's some sort of injustice here, but there isn't.

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 6/16/17 at 3:44am

I think what Wayman is arguing is here is a bonafide Asian leading man who has been working on Broadway in principal roles for 20 years and he is passed over for a theatre novice just because he has an Oscar nomination. That is the reality for Asian actors in theatre, that you will be passed over for someone who is slightly more famous than you because that is a potential selling point because there are no A-list Asian actors in theatre or film. While I did see the draw and appeal for Ken Watanabe (and I personally did find him serviceable in the show), is he a better option than Jose Llana, who blew it out of the park and had incredible chemistry with Kelli O'Hara? I'm sure his name was thrown out there in initial casting, but was passed over for the one who was willing to shave his head and already had an Oscar nomination, one of the very few to have such a distinction.

[GeorgeandDot]

Posted: 6/16/17 at 4:05am

I'm confused.  So we shouldn't cast an Asian actor with an Oscar nomination in a lead role even though he was a name that brought in tickets and landed a Tony nomination?  We should go with the Broadway actor who, while he is brilliant and has a stronger singing voice, has no Oscar nomination and is basically a complete unknown outside of the theatre community?  That sort of logic really doesn't make much sense.  We saw a few Asian actors make their way through that role and all were great.  I don't understand what is upsetting about that situation.  Llana was great and is always great.  He didn't open the show, but he still played the part.  Performing is about a lot more than the Tony.

Also there was no #TonysSoWhite this year because there were people of color nominated and present throughout the ceremony, unlike the Oscars last year where all of the nominees were white as freshly fallen snow without a minority to be seen, even though Beasts of No Nation was the best film of the year.

Also, Jitney won best revival of a play so.....

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 6/16/17 at 4:33am

Again, I'm only assuming this is what Wayman is arguing, but now that I'm writing the words, I'm agreeing with it. Jose Llana is the only full Asian leading man in Broadway history I can really think of. He's paid his dues and has been working on Broadway for over 20 years. He's not given the opportunity to originate a role on Broadway that he's clearly right for and would have led to an eventual Tony nomination. It's just a scenario where even an actor of color who works consistently does not have the same opportunities to originate a role and be eligible for a Tony. Meanwhile, movie stars and white actors in general (for example Laura Osnes and Corey Cott, however talented they are) land themselves in Broadway shows season after season. Really, how many "dream casts" include Laura Osnes and Stephen Pasquale and Jeremy Jordan but don't include Joshua Henry or Ashley Park or Lindsay Mendez or Ali Ewoldt or Adam Jacobs? (I say this as a fan of everyone I mentioned.)

[Dave28282]

Posted: 6/16/17 at 5:00am

The percentage of people of color on Broadway is much higher than the percentage of people of color in the US population.

If this is a problem to you, you should ask yourself why this is and who's to blame for it.

If these people happened to be the best ones for the roles, fine. You won't hear me complaining. If this percentage is so high because people deliberately cast on color, that's a different story and nothing to be thankful for.

Let's assume we are talking about neutral roles here, where the colour has nothing to do with the story. Colour blind casting is good. Colour-conscious casting is wrong. Not ever should a role be given to a person of a certain colour just because of the sake of it. Neutral casting should never be colour-conscious.

As long as the focus lies on the amount of colored people/winners/oscars/tony's/black reel awards/black history day, etc, etc, etc, it keeps the race separation intact and people will stay colour-conscious. It's a cause-result case.

Rainah said: "If your entire principle cast is white*, there is something wrong with the show. Full stop."

As long as you think like this, there is something wrong with you. Full stop. 

If 9 out of 10 people auditioning for a role are white (population standards) it is not rocket science that the chances of the role being cast white are 9 times higher. You might like colour-focus to kick in, but that is the start of the problem.

If 4 out of those 10 people are deliberately cast on color, we have a problem. The focus should never be on that in neutral casting. Unfortunately I see this happening a lot at the moment and it feels very forced. This casting luxury seems to be exclusive for black people at the moment, which is unfair to for example, Asian people. No other race/color has this unbalanced casting/population percentage in such an extreme way.
 

 
 

Updated On: 6/16/17 at 05:00 AM

[Dave28282]

Posted: 6/16/17 at 5:00am

Double
 

 

Updated On: 6/16/17 at 05:00 AM

[hork]

Posted: 6/16/17 at 11:35am

HeyMrMusic said: "Again, I'm only assuming this is what Wayman is arguing, but now that I'm writing the words, I'm agreeing with it. Jose Llana is the only full Asian leading man in Broadway history I can really think of. He's paid his dues and has been working on Broadway for over 20 years. He's not given the opportunity to originate a role on Broadway that he's clearly right for and would have led to an eventual Tony nomination. It's just a scenario where even an actor of color who works consistently does not have the same opportunities to originate a role and be eligible for a Tony. Meanwhile, movie stars and white actors in general (for example Laura Osnes and Corey Cott, however talented they are) land themselves in Broadway shows season after season. Really, how many "dream casts" include Laura Osnes and Stephen Pasquale and Jeremy Jordan but don't include Joshua Henry or Ashley Park or Lindsay Mendez or Ali Ewoldt or Adam Jacobs? (I say this as a fan of everyone I mentioned.)

 

Stop making this a racial issue. It's not like the part went to a white actor. It went to an Asian actor with more acting experience than Llana, albeit not on Broadway (but why does that matter?). I'd have gone with the Oscar nominee, too. An opportunity for Llana would have been an opportunity lost for Watanabe, or for Hoon Lee, or for whoever. "Opportunity" is meaningless here.

 

[VintageSnarker]

Posted: 6/16/17 at 11:44am

HeyMrMusic said: "Again, I'm only assuming this is what Wayman is arguing, but now that I'm writing the words, I'm agreeing with it. Jose Llana is the only full Asian leading man in Broadway history I can really think of. He's paid his dues and has been working on Broadway for over 20 years. He's not given the opportunity to originate a role on Broadway that he's clearly right for and would have led to an eventual Tony nomination. It's just a scenario where even an actor of color who works consistently does not have the same opportunities to originate a role and be eligible for a Tony. Meanwhile, movie stars and white actors in general (for example Laura Osnes and Corey Cott, however talented they are) land themselves in Broadway shows season after season. Really, how many "dream casts" include Laura Osnes and Stephen Pasquale and Jeremy Jordan but don't include Joshua Henry or Ashley Park or Lindsay Mendez or Ali Ewoldt or Adam Jacobs? (I say this as a fan of everyone I mentioned.)

I understand where you're coming from but this happens to plenty of white actors too. Someone more famous if debatably less qualified gets the part because they want someone who (in theory) will sell more tickets. I also agree that sometimes mediocre white actors get too many opportunities to prove themselves but an overabundance of opportunities for white actors isn't related to whether Jose Llana should have gotten this part. And even then those actors are often building off their last job and growing name recognition even if it won't actually translate into ticket sales. 

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 6/16/17 at 12:16pm

Colorblind and color-conscious casting are necessary. Look at the child casting in Billy Elliot, Matilda, and School of Rock. Is it colorblind or color-conscious? Probably a little of both. But that one black ballerina, Asian Lavender, and colorful cast of rockers will inspire a nonwhite child so much more because they see themselves onstage and they see it's possibly to act or sing or dance onstage if they want to. When I was growing up, I was raised on Miss Saigon because my family was so proud of all the Filipino talent in the show, especially Lea Salonga of course. "If she could win a Tony, then it's possible for someone like me to do that."

How can you fully support a child pursuing a field that is stacked against them? That's what the parents of every nonwhite child pursuing theatre has to go through. If Miss Saigon is the only viable option, how do you justify an Asian child wanting to do theatre? (And this is why Baayork Lee won a special Tony Award this year for her work in creating National Asian Artists Project, which increases Asian visibility in theatre while also working with Asian children and Asian seniors who would normally not have an arts-rich life.)

Anyway, bravo to Frozen for casting their standbys with actors of color: Elsa's standby is half-Japanese and Anna's standby is black. Colorblind or color-conscious? Maybe a little of both. But the talent is there.

[GeorgeandDot]

Posted: 6/16/17 at 2:41pm

I agree with the above statement.  I think that if a role is white by default it is important to take actors of every shade into consideration for the part and whoever has the best audition and is the most qualified should play the part.  I think that directors should also be aware of the need to have an inclusive cast.  Color conscious casting is not a bad thing.  It is not an easy thing for actors of color to find roles that fit them, so there is nothing wrong with directors choosing to create a spot for them in the American theatre.

[Wayman_Wong]

Posted: 6/17/17 at 3:37pm

Maybe this already has been mentioned, but ''Frozen'' has cast Jelani Alladin, who's a black, award-winning actor, to play Kristoff.

Denee Benton (''The Great Comet'' ) said a black girl came up to her after the show and said: ''I didn't know we could be princesses.''

Updated On: 6/17/17 at 03:37 PM

[jjcasual]

Posted: 6/17/17 at 5:38pm

Dave28282 said: "The percentage of people of color on Broadway is much higher than the percentage of people of color in the US population.
...
If 9 out of 10 people auditioning for a role are white (population standards) it is not rocket science that the chances of the role being cast white are 9 times higher. You might like colour-focus to kick in, but that is the start of the problem.

If 4 out of those 10 people are deliberately cast on color, we have a problem. The focus should never be on that in neutral casting. Unfortunately I see this happening a lot at the moment and it feels very forced. This casting luxury seems to be exclusive for black people at the moment, which is unfair to for example, Asian people. No other race/color has this unbalanced casting/population percentage in such an extreme way."

Since no one has pointed this out, I want to say the non-hispanic white population in the US is around 62%, and in NYC it's about 45%. In the 2014-2015 season, white actors held 84.5% of roles in plays and 74% of roles in musicals on Broadway. The gold standard for diversity is to have representation that mirrors the population. With Broadway being in NYC, it makes a lot of sense for at least 5 out of 10 roles going to people of color.

Some actors put together a pretty interesting report last year. You can read about it here: https://qz.com/842610/broadways-race-problem-is-unmasked-by-data-but-the-theater-industry-is-still-stuck-in-neutral/

[Wayman_Wong]

Posted: 6/20/17 at 10:03am

In this new BroadwayWorld interview, Michael Maliakel, the young Indian-American star of ''Monsoon Wedding'' (now at Berkeley Rep and Broadway-bound), shares some fascinating insights as an actor of color. Even though he's played various parts, ranging from the title role in ''The Marriage of Figaro'' to Sky Masterson in ''Guys and Dolls,'' ''Monsoon Wedding''' marks the very FIRST time in his career, he gets to play an Indian-American. And Maliakel, who grew up in New Jersey, marvels at being in his first all-South Asian cast: ''It's extraordinary to see all these beautiful brown people who look like you.'' He also reveals his run-ins with racism in America, and his casting hopes in a post-''Hamilton'' Broadway.

https://www.broadwayworld.com/article/BWW-Interview-Michael-Maliakel-Hopes-Berkeley-Monsoon-Takes-Broadway-by-Storm-20170619

Updated On: 6/20/17 at 10:03 AM

[Wayman_Wong]

Posted: 6/25/17 at 12:48pm

Actors Equity has given its Extraordinary Excellence in Diversity on Broadway Award to three shows: ''Come From Away,'' ''A Doll's House, Part 2'' and ''Natasha, Pierre and the Great Comet of 1812.'' The award aims to celebrate “the union’s founding principles of diversity, inclusion, non-traditional casting, and equal opportunity for all who work in the theatre.'' Bravo to the winners.

So which Broadway shows THIS season might bring some color to the Great White Way? I can think of the revivals of ''Dreamgirls,'' ''M. Butterfly'' and ''Once on This Island.'' Among the new shows, possibilities include ''The Band's Visit,'' ''Escape to Margaritaville,'' ''Frozen'' & ''Monsoon Wedding.'' Can anyone think of any others?

Updated On: 6/25/17 at 12:48 PM

[leighmiserables]

Posted: 6/25/17 at 12:58pm

Wayman_Wong said: "So which shows are coming to Broadway THIS season that might bring some color to the Great White Way? I can think of the revivals of ''Dreamgirls,'' ''M. Butterfly'' and ''Once on This Island.'' Among the new shows, possibilities include ''The Band's Visit,'' ''Escape to Margaritaville'' & ''Monsoon Wedding.'' Can anyone think of others?"

If it actually transfers like it's rumored to be: Hadestown does. But that hasn't been confirmed yet, so we'll see. Otherwise (as much as I hate to speak the name) didn't the Spongebob musical have a pretty diverse cast?

[theatreguy12]

Posted: 6/25/17 at 2:44pm

Unfortunately a discussion that will never find an answer, I fear.  Because it will never be enough.

If LMM wanted to cast non-whites in his musical, even though it's a musical about white historical figures, that's his prerogative.  There was a message and a reason behind it, so be it.  If Porgy and Bess, or Jelly's Last Jam, etc. want to remain a largely black cast, I have no problem with that.

But if someone down the line wants to cast a white Jelly Roll Morton or Porgy or Bess in upcoming stagings of those musicals, so be it.  Or a black Captain Andy and a white Joe in future stagings of Showboat, again, so be it.

It's the theater.

I do find it odd though how the term Asian is thrown around so haphazardly.  I know it's a generalized label for those whose heritage is from the Asian continent, but many of the shows being discussed here are special to different cultures within that continental sphere.   Just for the sake of debate, is casting a Japanese actress in the role of a Chinese woman in Flower Drum Song okay?  Is casting a Filipino or Japanese actor as the King of Siam a slight to Thai actors?

My friend's mom is Chinese, his dad is Japanese.  And he admitted that there have been some interesting moments between families, the Chinese side seeing themselves as superior to the Japanese side, and vice versa. I'm sure his Chinese family members would have raised their eyebrows at the thought of Japanese actors playing Chinese characters too.

I know this is a thread about the overcasting of whites in roles that could easily be cast across different cultures, and I agree that there are many roles that don't have to have whites cast in those roles.

I just find it an interesting topic because once the white problem is solved, it can't be denied that within that Asian continent are many diverse cultures in and of themselves.  So will that be our next discussion?

I also have a friend who is Thai, numerous friends who are Filipino, and quite a few of Japanese and Chinese ancestry (including that friend who is both Chinese and Japanese).  And they are all as different from one another in their cultural practices as my culture is from my friends from Mexico and Canada.  Even though those of us from the USA, Canada and Mexico all come from the same continent as well.

I think if we're going to talk about color blind casting, racism, etc., we have to be totally consistent and look beyond the white thing.  Even though the white thing has its own questions.  A phantom from Paris singing with an Irish brogue?  An English Sweeney Todd role being played by someone with a Polish accent.  I mean, how far do we take it.

This discussion has gone only as far as casting whites versus everyone else.  But how far does it go once we get this initial issue solved?  Because among  that group of "everyone else" there are uniquely diverse individuals with their own stories, and their own cultures, even if they do come from the same continent and are labeled as such.

I travel to South America frequently on vacations and take care not to call myself an American, because South Americans are from the Americas as well.  

Canadians and Mexicans are from North America.  We're all from the same continent.  But we come from many different cultures and experiences, as well.

Labeling Asians only by their continental identity takes away from the individual experiences they own, be they Japanese, Filipino, Indian, Chinese, etc.

So once you get beyond the white vs. everyone else labels, how far do you take it.  Color blind casting is fine by me, but once you get passed the skin color, do we want to be sensitive to culture and country-identity as well, rather than just labeling them with some catch all, continental identity?  

Probably.  If you want to be consistent.  

In the meantime, my cousin, a former NYC actress has been turned down for numerous roles.  She wasn't "ethnic" enough (this was back in the 70s), she was too short for the role that was being cast.  Whatever.  

I'm not saying it doesn't happen more to those of color than white actors (the percentages might be in the favor of white actors), but it does happen to whites as well.

[hork]

Posted: 6/25/17 at 3:02pm

What does an actor's culture or story have to do with the parts he can play? He might be Swedish-American and raised in the Ozarks but that has nothing to do with his ability to play the Phantom. Likewise, a Filipino actress can play Kim in Miss Saigon. It's not "labeling," it's just playing a role.

Also, I think it's okay to call yourself an American in South America. There's no other word for someone from the U.S. It's just what we're called.

Updated On: 6/25/17 at 03:02 PM

[Wayman_Wong]

Posted: 6/25/17 at 5:34pm

''Just for the sake of debate, is casting a Japanese actress in the role of a Chinese woman in Flower Drum Song okay?  Is casting a Filipino or Japanese actor as the King of Siam a slight to Thai actors?''

Miyoshi Umeki, a Japanese actress, DID play the lead in the original ''Flower Drum Song.'' And Lea Salonga, a Filipina, played the same role of Mei-Li in the 2002 revisal. Jose Llana, a Filipino-American, is now playing the Siamese ruler in the U.S. tour of ''The King and I.''

Of course, not all Asians are alike. But the roles for Asians are so rare that you don't have the luxury to limit them so specifically by ethnicity. (After all, it's not like Caucasian actors with European heritage can only portray the English; they can play Italians, Swedes, Germans, etc. In fact, as history shows, they get to play pretty much anything: Latinos, Middle Easterners, Asians, Eskimos, etc, )

Even now, Caucasians still get to play Asian characters in the movies. Google: Asians and whitewashing, and you'll see what I mean.

''This discussion has gone only as far as casting whites vs.everyone else. But how far does it go once we get this initial issue solved?''

I'm afraid it'll be decades before this ''initial issue'' is ''solved,'' if ever.

Updated On: 6/25/17 at 05:34 PM

[blm2323]

Posted: 6/25/17 at 6:16pm

Also, I think it's okay to call yourself an American in South America. There's no other word for someone from the U.S. It's just what we're called.

 

 

"

Actually, as one who has lived in Argentina for three years and traveled a lot to South and Central America as well as an AP Spanish teacher, if you say "I'm an American" they will say "I am too." It's best to say North American. In Spanish there is actually a word for someone from the USA - estadounidense. "United Statesian" :)