Bandstand or Miss Saigon - Page 4

[KathyNYC2]

Posted: 6/20/17 at 8:03pm

I have mixed feelings on this. I'm Italian and I had relatives that refused to see The Godfather movies because some said they stereotyped Italians. I never really understood that because I knew that while they were depicting a part of "my Italian heritage", I never felt it was attacking Italians as a group. It was depicting a very real small percentage of Italians. Is this much different? And why or why not? There certainly were Italian stereotypes out there when I was a kid too.  Not trying to argue...  just curious. 

Regardless Miss Saigon can be breathtaking and it's worth a visit, in spite of any flaws. 

 

[Dave28282]

Posted: 6/20/17 at 8:47pm

Art is always about confrontation and evoking emotions, getting out of your comfort zone and often being confronted with harsh realities. 

There are thousands of Bui Doi kids, children of soldiers and Vietnamese bargirls in real life. This story happens to be about that. If that makes you uncomfortable, Fine. That's the point of the show. If you like to see other things/shows/roles/people too, Fine, that's up to you too.

If you can't handle this, stay out of the theatre. The role of Kim is a heroine to me, a noble hero, a truly wonderful personality/role. According to you, all the other Asian roles must be noble heroes too? Or else you are offended? One Asian role is an Army officer, another is a bar girl. But according to you, both should have high career functions? Why? Why can't an Asian be a bar girl? White girls play whores all the time (Jekyll & Hyde, etc). If you have a desire to (only) see very wholesome, well-heeled Asian characters, that is up to you, but it is very unfair to blame this show for not fulfilling your needs.

The beauty of this (and other) show(s) is the fact that nothing is good or bad and that every person/role has multiple sides and can't be put into 1 box, like you are trying to do.

It's a simple choice, do you look at race or do you look at the person/character.

I love to see shows and movies about life, history, bad things, unreasonable killings, humiliating situations, stereotypes and how characters rise above them, human stories. That's life. That's art.

 

 

[GeorgeandDot]

Posted: 6/20/17 at 9:31pm

^I'm amazed at how you still don't understand what I'm saying.  I don't think Miss Saigon should get shut down or something, I just didn't completely understand why it was written in the first place, even though I still liked it.  If they wanted to tell a story about a strong Asian woman post war Vietnam, they could have just without the all the faux-Asian culture that they're presenting.  I could really do without her being a stripper and having a fascination with an American GI.  Why can't she just be a normal Vietnamese girl who falls for a GI, gets pregnant and has to fight for her and her child to have a better life?  Why must she fulfill the stereotype of the Asian stripper that has been portrayed in every war movie.  It's sickening that those roles seem to be all that's available to Asian actresses.  The show is good and her story is beautiful and inspirational, but I could do without the Asian stereotypes that white Americans seem to really fall for.

I'm not made uncomfortable by the serious nature of the show.  I'm made uncomfortable by seeing Asian women fetishized on stage by white audiences.

Updated On: 6/20/17 at 09:31 PM

[Dancingthrulife2]

Posted: 6/20/17 at 9:48pm

But people are overlooking the fact that Miss Saigon was not written as an Asian show; it is, instead, a show about war and people screwed over by it. It's understandable that the nature of the material that inspired Saigon evokes Orientalism, but it is a bit unfair to apply the same logic to Miss Saigon. By all means, the story of Kim could also be another victim in Iraq today and the story would still hold. That's why the show feels urgent and relevant today while its opera counterpart doesn't have much to offer except its haunting score. 

As an Asian myself and also as a stage director, I can totally relate to the feeling that diasporas want to see themselves represented on stage. However, people sometimes expect so much from a show that it is dismissed as disparaging when it doesn't focus on replicating a certain experience but something else, sometimes something more universal. Indeed, people who are not seen as "white" want to break out of the mold of the socially and culturally constructed racial stereotypes (especially the continuing "model minority" stereotype for an Asian that discounts effort put into work). Nevertheless, Saigon is very nuanced in its depiction of war and the imperialist nature of US warfare, and the new production cuts out the overdone romance, whether in set or direction, that I think did the original production disservice. It is basically the same material for sure, but different visions of directors can make a show go different places when the material allows enough room. This, I think, deserves its place alongside the rehashing of the mistakes in Saigon's original production.

Updated On: 6/20/17 at 09:48 PM

[AnnTheatre]

Posted: 6/20/17 at 9:49pm

Is is 100%  plagiarism from  Madame Butterfly  , but from  1904 to 1975!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madama_Butterfly

Even the final that Kim steps behind a curtain and shoots herself, no reason to do that for 1975-1978 time frame.

It is too much mix for a good taste comparing to the opera: war tragedy,   dictator power, bar whore houses, Hollywood glamour ("The American Dream" ) and “pure”  love. Just trying to be all things for all people.

[Dancingthrulife2]

Posted: 6/20/17 at 11:34pm

AnnTheatre said: "Is is 100%  plagiarism from  Madame Butterfly  , but from  1904 to 1975!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madama_Butterfly

Even the final that Kim steps behind a curtain and shoots herself, no reason to do that for 1975-1978 time frame.

It is too much mix for a good taste comparing to the opera: war tragedy,   dictator power, bar whore houses, Hollywood glamour ("The American Dream" ) and “pure”  love. Just trying to be all things for all people.

 

"

Obviously you didn't get the irony of "American Dream" and the cleverly placed symbolism there.

[A Director]

Posted: 6/20/17 at 11:37pm

I was a high school and college student during the Vietnam War.  At the time, a number of plays, directly and indirectly, dealt with the war.  They include: The Basic Training of Pavlo Hummel, Sticks and Bones, Streamers, Viet Rock and Hair.  Each one made you uncomfortable about the war in some way.  In 1989, along came Miss Saigon.  No use retelling the history of the original production.   There are some problems with the musical.

*Madama Butterfly is set in Japan which has a specific culture.  Miss Saigon is set in Vietnam which has a specific culture.  You can't take a story from one culture and drop it into the other.  Is the attitude about suicide in Japan the same as the attitude in Vietnam?

*Miss Saigon traffics in old worn out tropes about Asians women.  They were worn in 1989; they are a single thread in 2017.

*Of course, Miss Saigon is not an every Vietnamese story.  On the other hand, I wonder if there are people whose only  knowledge about the war come from this show?  How many people know the Vietnamese were fighting to save their country long before the U.S. arrived?

*Yes, Miss Saigon has employed many Asian actors, but, in 2017, why should their opportunities be limited? Why should they be stuck playing pimps, soldiers and bar girls?

*In 2017, there should be more plays written by Vietnamese authors. VIETGONE by Qui Nguyen is a terrific kickass, badass play.  I learned things I didn't know and it made me think. As I left the theatre, I thought the time for Miss Saigon has come and gone.

Dave28282 endlessly repeats we should see the characters as humans.  Based on my experience, people who says this over and over DO NOT see the characters as individuals; they don't see them at all.  Dave28282 thinks he it above it all; he's not.

GeorgeandDot - I understand what you are saying. On the other hand, you are undercutting your point of view.  You say, " I'm made uncomfortable by seeing Asian women fetishized on stage by white audiences." But, then you say you like Miss Saigon.  What?

Dancingthrulife2 -  Your comments are confusing. You write, "As an Asian myself and also as a stage director, I can totally relate to the feeling that diasporas want to see themselves represented on stage. However, people sometimes expect so much from a show that it is dismissed as disparaging when it doesn't focus on replicating a certain experience but something else, sometimes something more universal. Indeed, people who are not seen as "white" want to break out of the mold of the socially and culturally constructed racial stereotypes (especially the continuing "model minority" stereotype for an Asian that discounts effort put into work)."  What?  I am not Asian, but I have read and heard Asian writers and actors who say Miss Saigon is one of the few times Asians are  represented on stage.  There are many stories waiting to be told.  Why is another production of this musical needed?  You state, "; it is, instead, a show about war and people screwed over by it."  There are many shows that do a better job.

 

[Dancingthrulife2]

Posted: 6/21/17 at 12:15am

A Director said: "
Dancingthrulife2 -  Your comments are confusing. You write, "As an Asian myself and also as a stage director, I can totally relate to the feeling that diasporas want to see themselves represented on stage. However, people sometimes expect so much from a show that it is dismissed as disparaging when it doesn't focus on replicating a certain experience but something else, sometimes something more universal. Indeed, people who are not seen as "white" want to break out of the mold of the socially and culturally constructed racial stereotypes (especially the continuing "model minority" stereotype for an Asian that discounts effort put into work)."  What?  I am not Asian, but I have read and heard Asian writers and actors who say Miss Saigon is one of the few times Asians are  represented on stage.  There are many stories waiting to be told.  Why is another production of this musical needed?  You state, "; it is, instead, a show about war and people screwed over by it."  There are many shows that do a better job.

 

 

"

Sorry for the confusion. What I mean is, when we see ourselves represented on stage in Saigon, some of us want so much more regardless of the vision of the production they see. It's a story set in Asia for sure, but the message it wants to come across is not Asian-specific. In fact, the story doesn't have to be Asian or Vietnam War to work. So there's something that everyone can relate to regardless of your ethnicity. I totally understand why people want it to be a lot more than it ever aspires to be, but as a director, you also want people to understand your choice of x instead of y as the priority in your vision.

As for why it needs a revival, you can ask the same question on The King and I, which my friends hate so so much more than Saigon for its depiction of Asian stereotypes (also a case where the point IS Asian-specific), Hello Dolly!, or the majority of Broadway commercial productions. 

[GeorgeandDot]

Posted: 6/21/17 at 12:45am

A Director, I loathe the fact that the show was created without respect for the people whose story they were telling and I loathe the way the women and just overall Vietnamese culture is portrayed.  At the same time, I can pull moments from the show that I greatly appreciate such as "I'd give my life for you" and "American Dream."  I also adore both Lea Salonga's and Eva Noblezada's performances and I thought Jon Jon Briones was incredible, but the show is not one of my favorites because of it's horrible flaws and low-key racism.  I guess what I mean is that Eva Noblezada and Jon Jon Briones are doing incredible work and are carrying that show on their backs and they deserve praise for that.  My praise is not so much for the musical itself, but for itself performers.

[Dave28282]

Posted: 6/21/17 at 6:28am

The things you mention are not flaws. If you would like to see Kim as a wholesome housewife, baking a pie, meeting Chris, getting pregnant, to make you feel better, that only says a lot about you, but nothing about the show. Nobody in this show, of any race, is portrayed as perfect. 

Thuy is a highly placed army officer. If you demand Kim to have a good job too, so you can like the show more, you have serious issues.

I think Miss Saigon does an incredible job of the human story of all it's characters. The role of Kim might be written a litte too "heroic" but that's ok, because it's a story. The realities of war were much harsher I think. Where girls were used for sex and then thrown away. Yes, history can be confronting. Miss Saigon does a wonderful job in balancing this, and portraying them as real people. The beauty of this show is that all characters (besides Kim) have both good and bad character traits and reasoning out of circumstance, goals, confusion, which is brilliant.

If you don't like this, you can watch other things.

 

 

Updated On: 6/21/17 at 06:28 AM

[Dave28282]

Posted: 6/21/17 at 6:45am

Dancingthrulife2 said: " but it is a bit unfair to apply the same logic to Miss Saigon. By all means, the story of Kim could also be another victim in Iraq today and the story would still hold. That's why the show feels urgent and relevant today while its opera counterpart doesn't have much to offer except its haunting score. "

I agree, the bigger picture is what it's about.

Also, we should not confuse things here. If this is about Asian people playing neutral roles, I'm all for that. Color blind casting, Lea Salonga as Eponine, Joanna Ampil as Maria Magdalena, Fantine, Ali Ewoldt as Christine in Phantom, etc. 

But whenever there is a story about Asian characters with mixed personalities, quite wholesome, like Kim, or not so wholesome, like the Engineer, do not go complain. Wholesome or not, this is the arts. So people should play anything. Asian people should play anything too. If you wish there were more roles specifically written for Asian people where they are portrayed as picture perfect, then write a show about that. But do not complain whenever that's not the case. Every other show has white villains too. And actually, Miss Saigon has no villains at all. Every other show has white stereotypes too and white characters in very compromising positions. And no show at all has every layer of society covered, neither does Miss Saigon. And that's a wonderful thing. Telling a story instead of pleasing everyone.

This show is about that part of history, and handles it in a brilliant way. The balance of the emotional lines is just exquisite.

 

Updated On: 6/21/17 at 06:45 AM

[Addipia94]

Posted: 6/21/17 at 10:39am

Alright, as much as I loved reading through these novel length comments about the underlining issues people have towards Miss Saigon, I would desiderate to get back to the initial poster's inquiry - Bandstand or Miss Saigon?

Having seen both shows recently I can say you really cannot go wrong, as others have mentioned it is simply a matter of preference. Both shows have their flaws and book problems…doesn’t every show? Despite that, I personally believe the vote belongs to Bandstand. I think it’s exciting to see original shows and this is really an underrated production that leaves you smiling and crying during whole performance. The onstage band players are phenomenal as well as the leads Cott and Osnes!

The 1940s swing music and dancing (amazing Blankenbuehler choreography) are enough to get me to go back - just puts me in such a good mood!

Updated On: 6/21/17 at 10:39 AM

[GeorgeandDot]

Posted: 6/21/17 at 2:03pm

Dave, you're not understanding what I'm writing and you're not listening.  You're coming off extremely ignorant.  I don't want Kim to be a housewife of an American GI and I don't find anything about Saigon to be exquisite.  It's exploitational.  They took my culture and wrote a musical about it with 0 respect for who they were writing about.  Of course you don't care because it isn't your culture.

[poisonivy2]

Posted: 6/21/17 at 2:14pm

I would see Bandstand because there's a commercial video of this production of Miss Saigon available with this exact cast. 

[Lot666]

Posted: 6/21/17 at 2:19pm

poisonivy2 said: "I would see Bandstand because there's a commercial video of this production of Miss Saigon available with this exact cast."

Almost; unfortunately, the fantastic Devin Ilaw, who plays Thuy on Broadway, was not in the London cast.   And the home video version has not been released in the U.S., so you have to go to international sellers to obtain it.

 

[Dave28282]

Posted: 6/21/17 at 6:30pm

GeorgeandDot said: "I don't want Kim to be a housewife of an American GI "

GeorgeandDot said: Can't she just be a normal Vietnamese girl who falls for a GI, gets pregnant and has to fight for her and her child to have a better life?  Why must she fulfill the stereotype.

Get over yourself. Bar girls existed. 

 

[froote]

Posted: 6/21/17 at 6:33pm

Dave your desire to speak over an asian woman's opinion on the depiction of asian women is so ridiculously rude and stupid it's unbelievable, especially as a white male. But this isn't surprising from the guy who thinks everyone that likes hip hop music has been brainwashed.

[froote]

Posted: 6/21/17 at 6:33pm

Dave your desire to speak over an asian woman's opinion on the depiction of asian women is so ridiculously rude and stupid it's unbelievable, especially as a white male. But this isn't surprising from the guy who thinks everyone that likes hip hop music has been brainwashed.

[Dave28282]

Posted: 6/21/17 at 7:34pm

Being an Asian woman doesn't give her the right to blame a show for having a character having a profession that does not suit her. (she literally says, why can't she be a normal girl). Me as a gay person prefer to see handsome, manly, perfect, kind, guys in all shows, movies and tv series too. Not gonna happen. So I can complain about it and blame every movie or show or get over myself.

[froote]

Posted: 6/21/17 at 7:36pm

Wrong. Anyone has the right to have a positive or negative opinion on the way their race, gender or sexuality is being represented on screen and stage. 

[Dave28282]

Posted: 6/21/17 at 7:38pm

Not every show or movie will portray every character to your liking. Yes, you can complain about what you don't like but blaming the show is stupid.

[GeorgeandDot]

Posted: 6/21/17 at 8:09pm

Dave, let me get this into your stupid head, YOU ARE NOTHING IN THIS CONVERSATION.  YOU HAVE NO OPINION ON THIS MATTER.  YOU ARE NOT AN ASIAN PERSON SO YOU CANNOT TELL ME WHETHER OR NOT MISS SAIGON IS OFFENSIVE TO ASIAN AUDIENCES.  I HAVE BEEN FAIRLY NICE HERE, BUT THIS ONE OF THE STUPIDEST, RUDEST, AND MOST INNAPROPRIATE THINGS THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN IN MY LIFE.  JUST LIKE MISS SAIGON, YOU HAVE NO RESPECT FOR THE ASIAN CULTURE.  YOU CANNOT WIN THIS ARGUMENT BECAUSE YOUR OPINION IS INVALID HERE.  BACK OFF WITH YOUR WHITE NONSENSE.  BEGONE TROLL!

-AN ACTUAL (BL)ASIAN WOMAN

[ArtMan]

Posted: 6/21/17 at 8:29pm

"Fairly nice"?  I've been reading this thread and can't believe what a piece of work you are.  Maybe your message would register better if you weren't so rude.  Calling people racist... I think you're the racist.  Now go ahead and tell me that POC can't be racist.

Updated On: 6/21/17 at 08:29 PM

[GeorgeandDot]

Posted: 6/21/17 at 8:59pm

ArtMan said: ""Fairly nice"?  I've been reading this thread and can't believe what a piece of work you are.  Maybe your message would register better if you weren't so rude.  Calling people racist... I think you're the racist.  Now go ahead and tell me that POC can't be racist.

Sorry if I injured your white fragility.  

Are you actually suggesting that calling someone racist is racist?  Also, I love white people.  White people are my friends, my family even.  My husband is white, so clearly I don't have much hate for white people.  I do have hate for ignorant people who tell me that they know more about my culture and my people when they actually know nothing.  I have not been rude.  I have been offended and amazed by the egotism and ignorance radianting from the people on here.

Also, POC can't be racist by definition.  You have be in a position of power to be racist.  A POC can be prejudiced, but they can't be racist.  Also, no, I am not prejudiced.  I am merely calling out your ignorance.

 

[ArtMan]

Posted: 6/21/17 at 9:10pm

No honey, ANYONE that dislikes someone based on their race is a racist.  Being in a position of power has absolutely nothing to do with it.  By starting your response immediately with " Sorry I injured your white fragility" defines your character.  You have absolutely no idea what race i am.  In the real world, you may be a nice, lovable person....but on this thread you come across like an ASS.