Taylor Mac and 'judy'- Page 2

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 4/5/19 at 9:21pm

GavestonPS said: "ray-andallthatjazz86 said: "The Distinctive Baritone said: "Sex/gender only matters when you are looking to make babies or are receiving medical care. Otherwise it’s irrelevant and should not be given so much thought."

Ah, yes, I bet if you are a straight cis dude this comment makes a lot of sense. For the rest of us... not so much. But I’m glad you’ve established sex/gender only matters when it comes to breeding and doctors. Is this really how low the bar is set for so-called allies? Give me a break, dude."

I think DB's point was that "gender SHOULD only matter" in those instances that deal with procreation. S/he knows that people are often treated differently based on perceptions of their gender. But we get it: it sucks to be you."

Since both my original post and my response to ray-andallthatjazz86 were deleted by the moderators, but my post is still being referenced in a quote, I will clarify my opinion with this, and then walk away from this conversation: if gender (as opposed to biological sex) is indeed an unnecessary social construct, then we should dissolve that social construct, not add to it with even more pronouns. Anything beyond he, she, and they just digs us deeper into this hole we've already made for ourselves over the centuries with our misguided ideas about gender. 

Thank you, and goodnight.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 4/6/19 at 1:32am

A Director said: "GavestonPS said: "I support differently gendered people (though I'm suspicious that "non-binary identified" is anything but a fad with a very short shelf life)."

WOW! A fad? How conservative of you! Your comment comes close to, "I love gay people; just hate the sin!" There are people who believe being gay is a choice or just a fad!
"

Well, there's a false analogy, if I've ever encountered one! Nobody but you introduced the concept of "sin" into the discussion.

I absolutely believe there are people--including myself--who aren't obsessively focussed on their gender. I can't remember the last time I had an interior monologue where I referred to myself as male. I don't worry about whether my behavior is "manly" or whether I am perceived as masculine. Like a lot of BWW posters, I used a woman as my avatar for years. I wasn't trying to masquerade as female, it was just a photo I happened to be able to find on my desktop and I didn't care enough to worry that the gender of my avatar didn't map to my biological or psychological gender.

But none of that means that when asked, I don't know that I think of myself as more or less male.

Announcing that one has simply shrugged off hundreds of thousands of years of biology and thousands of years of sociology to achieve a nonbinary gendered identity is immature at best, unconvincing in nearly every case.

IMHO, of course. I'm willing to listen respectfully to those who argue otherwise, but I'm not ready to reinvent my language based on an argument I find unconvincing. As with women who suddenly discover their own "lesbianism" after an abusive hetero relationship, let's wait and see how "nonbinary genderism" ages in the lives of those who embrace it before we all jump on the train.

(Confidential to Distinctive Baritone (who probably isn't reading here anymore): I didn't notice that your posts were deleted. Are you sure you just didn't lose them in the shuffle? Anyway, I tend to agree with you and I appreciate your clarity.)

Updated On: 4/6/19 at 01:32 AM

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 4/6/19 at 5:27am

Gaveston, my first post was left intact, but my two replies to others were deleted. Neither was a personal attack anyone, I was just sharing my general opinion on the subject.

I am so done arguing with my fellow liberals on the internet about what’s offensive and what’s not. Ever since the Presidential election it’s been impossible to really discuss anything. No one wants to debate or philosophize, they just want to get offended so they can then bring down the wrath of social justice on you and then feel good about themselves for publicly demonstrating to everyone how progressive and morally superior they are.

[Sally Durant Plummer]

Posted: 4/6/19 at 2:58pm

Having just read this thread, I do hope people aren’t simply calling those with different opinions “trolls”. Especially a poster like Gaveston, who has consistently posted wonderful and insightful comments on here for years. Regardless of opinions on this sensitive topic, conversation is paramount to this now in vogue idea of “blocking” and forgetting.

Updated On: 4/6/19 at 02:58 PM

[haterobics]

Posted: 4/6/19 at 3:05pm

Do the mods tell you when they remove posts or do you have to just sort it out on your own?

[Moderator]

Posted: 4/6/19 at 3:53pm

haterobics said: "Do the mods tell you when they remove posts or do you have to just sort it out on your own?"

If we delete a post that we think was made in good faith, but in our opinion crossed the line, we will send a PM and let the poster know that it was deleted and why. If it was done in a manner in which we believe that the poster already knew that they were violating the rules, we will let the deletion speak for itself.

However, if there are any questions, you are always able to PM this account, or email us at moderator[at]broadwayworld[dot]com and we will get back to you as soon as possible. 

[haterobics]

Posted: 4/6/19 at 7:42pm

Moderator said: "haterobics said: "Do the mods tell you when they remove posts or do you have to just sort it out on your own?"

If we delete a post that we think was made in good faith, but in our opinion crossed the line, we will send a PM and let the poster know that it was deleted and why. If it was done in a manner in whichwe believethat the poster already knew that they were violating the rules, we will let the deletion speak for itself."

Sounds good. I like dancing on the line at times, but don't necessarily remember when or what I may have posted to actually keep track of such things...

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 4/6/19 at 10:04pm

The Distinctive Baritone said: "Gaveston, my first post was left intact, but my two replies to others were deleted. Neither was a personal attack anyone, I was just sharing my general opinion on the subject.

I am so done arguing with my fellow liberals on the internet about what’s offensive and what’s not. Ever since the Presidential election it’s been impossible to really discuss anything. No one wants to debate or philosophize, they just want to get offended so they can then bring down the wrath of social justice on you and then feel good about themselves for publicly demonstrating to everyone how progressive and morally superior they are."

True. And meanwhile the Commander-in-Cheat ravages the countryside and all norms of behavior. But we can't seem to do anything about him, so let's attack one another by all means. After the Joe Biden nonsense of the past two weeks, I'm tempted to vote for Trump next year, just to see if the heads of SJWs literally explode! (I'm sure I won't succumb, but it is a temptation.)

For the record, I do not identify as "cis" anything. To my ear, it's an obnoxious word. So I expect every poster here and everyone I know IRL to refrain from using the term to refer to me.

Because that's what we're really talking about, not whether an individual may self-identify, but whether hir subjective reality must be accepted as objective reality by everybody else.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 4/6/19 at 10:06pm

Sally Durant Plummer said: "Having just read this thread, I do hope people aren’t simply calling those with different opinions “trolls”. Especially a poster like Gaveston, who has consistently posted wonderful and insightful comments on here for years. Regardless of opinions on this sensitive topic, conversation is paramount to this now in vogue idea of “blocking” and forgetting."

Thank you, Sally. You are as kind as you are knowledgeable. But I have no complaints about any treatment I have received in this thread. I've been a deliberate provocateur; I can't complain if people push back a little. LOL.

Updated On: 4/7/19 at 10:06 PM

[A Director]

Posted: 4/7/19 at 12:46pm

https://www.dictionary.com/e/they-is-a-singular-pronoun/?fbclid=IwAR3upD4BXgMONygrq-X9I7b2VyE0gCcDi-GqSNv2iPiWO0Bs3vi-yuRFkzk

[Kad]

Posted: 4/7/19 at 3:45pm

To paraphrase Jefferson, it doesn’t pick my pocket or break my leg to accommodate somebody wishing to use pronouns I’m not used to. Gender has been in constant flux for all of human history, so I’m not about to draw the red line here and now and decide this is the end of the road on that topic.

[DonelBee]

Posted: 4/7/19 at 7:23pm

A Director said: "https://www.dictionary.com/e/they-is-a-singular-pronoun/?fbclid=IwAR3upD4BXgMONygrq-X9I7b2VyE0gCcDi-GqSNv2iPiWO0Bs3vi-yuRFkzk"

My question is:  If "they" is used as a singular pronoun, does one also use a singular verb (ex: He/She goes; They goes?  He/She is; They is?

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 4/7/19 at 8:34pm

DonelBee said: "A Director said: "https://www.dictionary.com/e/they-is-a-singular-pronoun/?fbclid=IwAR3upD4BXgMONygrq-X9I7b2VyE0gCcDi-GqSNv2iPiWO0Bs3vi-yuRFkzk"

My question is: If "they" is used as a singular pronoun, does one also use a singular verb (ex: He/She goes; They goes? He/She is; They is?"

Good question. In my experience, "they" is used with a plural verb. It grates on the ear to do otherwise.

But to address Kad's point, I don't think anybody here has argued that terms for gender are now written in stone. Allowing for historical flexibility of terminology, however, doesn't argue for its opposite: that we are all obligated to conform to every term invented in every women's study seminar.

As always, I salute Kad's graciousness. But I've had far too many friends announce suddenly that language conventions no long apply to them, that henceforth they will consider themselves "purple flamingos" or some such arbitrary term and must be addressed as such. Fast-forward a year or two, they are back to using the same terms as the rest of society.

As a personal experience with my niece and nephew, I tried to talk to them when they were babies with language and content that were gender neutral. It felt incredibly awkward and inauthentic. I eventually gave it up.

On the other hand, I can remember when it seemed highly unlikely we would ever forsake "Mrs." and "Miss" in favor of "Ms.", yet the change happened fairly quickly (and at the same time we Americans were somehow unable to get used to the metric system). So Kad is right that gender terms and concepts have changed through history, even recent history.

[DoTheDood]

Posted: 4/7/19 at 9:37pm

DonelBee said: "A Director said: "https://www.dictionary.com/e/they-is-a-singular-pronoun/?fbclid=IwAR3upD4BXgMONygrq-X9I7b2VyE0gCcDi-GqSNv2iPiWO0Bs3vi-yuRFkzk"

My question is: If "they" is used as a singular pronoun, does one also use a singular verb (ex: He/She goes; They goes? He/She is; They is?"

I still use a plural verb, but honestly I think that's just being raised by a binary society. Once kids are taught about NB people, saying "they is" will sound more normal to them. Again, I don't think it sounds good, but that's just because the people who taught me weren't aware of non-binary issue/pronouns.

[Shh_413]

Posted: 4/7/19 at 9:45pm

DonelBee said: "A Director said: "https://www.dictionary.com/e/they-is-a-singular-pronoun/?fbclid=IwAR3upD4BXgMONygrq-X9I7b2VyE0gCcDi-GqSNv2iPiWO0Bs3vi-yuRFkzk"

My question is: If "they" is used as a singular pronoun, does one also use a singular verb (ex: He/She goes; They goes? He/She is; They is?"

"They" uses a plural verb. Just like people say "you are" instead of "you is" regardless of the number of people being referred to.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 4/8/19 at 3:28am

DoTheDood said: "

I still use a plural verb, but honestly I think that's just being raised by a binary society. Once kids are taught about NB people, saying "they is" will sound more normal to them. Again, I don't think it sounds good, but that's just because the people who taught me weren't aware of non-binary issue/pronouns."

Well, before we indoctrinate the children, how about we actually do some research on the subject? If such a thing as "nonbinary gender identity" exists, it should be liable to objective classification.

Announcing to the world that I am so special none of the 100,000+ existing English words can be applied to me is strikingly sophomoric. I predict most will outgrow it.

[haterobics]

Posted: 4/8/19 at 10:03am

GavestonPS said: "Announcing to the world that I am so special none of the 100,000+ existing English words can be applied to me is strikingly sophomoric. I predict most will outgrow it."

So, what do you do before then? Treat them poorly until they get with the program?

At that point, how will you know they outgrew it or lost their ability to keep fighting that battle?

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 4/8/19 at 9:16pm

haterobics said: "GavestonPS said: "Announcing to the world that I am so special none of the 100,000+ existing English words can be applied to me is strikingly sophomoric. I predict most will outgrow it."

So, what do you do before then? Treat them poorly until they get with the program?

At that point, how will you know they outgrew it or lost their ability to keep fighting that battle?"

You say "poorly". I say honestly and with the same respect accorded everyone else. Just because one doesn't embrace the stereotypes of one gender or the other doesn't mean one has no gender. As Distinctive Baritone pointed out on a previous page, demanding your own set of pronouns just because your vagina doesn't turn you into Betty Crocker is to embrace the most rigid possible definitions of gender labels. The point should be to learn that being a woman (or being a man) does not automatically mean one is this or that. 

Everybody on the planet is a special snowflake, but if each of the seven billion of us demands a special set of pronouns, we'll need to carry supercomputers strapped to our backs just to keep track.

But you do you. I won't mock you for it.

ETA (because the doorbell rang) that we've taken the group right to self-label asserted by marginalized groups (which I have and will continue to defend), and applied it to individuals, where it becomes confusing rather than clarifying.

Updated On: 4/8/19 at 09:16 PM

[haterobics]

Posted: 4/9/19 at 12:38am

GavestonPS said: "Everybody on the planet is a special snowflake, but if each of the seven billion of us demands a special set of pronouns, we'll need to carry supercomputers strapped to our backs just to keep track."

I ran an online LGBT support site for years, and it was never more than a handful of people who wanted special pronouns, so I think when you expand it out to every possible person, it is a bit of a strawman (gender loaded term!) argument to make it seem way more complex than it is. Between that site and living in San Francisco at one point, you'd think I'd've had a mental breakdown sorting them all out, but it was a very very tiny slice of people in both areas, so it was rather easy.

Online, everything seems like a huge problem, but when you sprinkle that huge pocket of online people across their respective geographies, it is not a huge number in any one place... which is to their detriment, but makes our bit rather easy and rare.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 4/9/19 at 1:10am

haterobics, maybe I allowed myself to be pulled into an argument I did not intend, but I don't believe I ever said the problem was that "nonbinary gender" is "too complex". (Come to think of it, though, I can see where my reference to 7 billion genders may have seemed to say something to that effect.)

My primary point, if I have one, is that I DO NOT BELIEVE anyone is truly "bisexual" or of "nonbinary gender". I believe gender is so fully entrenched in all human cultures that even those of us who decline to conform to gender stereotypes still feel some sense of personal gender and some sexual preference for one or the other. Now membership in the two, binary populations is somewhat fluid and I am all for everyone getting to choose who to be and whom to love. Pick your own bathroom, too, while you're at it. Who cares?

The burden of proof is on those who claim to have transcended the norms of nature and society. Otherwise, those claiming to have no preferences merely seem to assert a superiority over the masses of us trapped in our maleness or femaleness. And even that is okay, but it doesn't require to rest of us to police our pronouns.

 

[haterobics]

Posted: 4/9/19 at 1:35am

GavestonPS said: "The burden of proof is on those who claim to have transcended the norms of nature and society. Otherwise, those claiming to have no preferences merely seem to assert a superiority over the masses of us trapped in our maleness or femaleness. And even that is okay, but it doesn't require to rest of us to police our pronouns."

I do think this is a temporary thing, in the sense that people define male and female, gay and straight, and everything else so rigidly, so that if you feel slightly at odds with any preconceived part of those, you think you don't fit, rather than just think your definition was a bit too narrowly defined.

Additionally, people who focus on gender too much do start to make everything about gender, whether it is or not, which only compounds the problem. Whereas, did I do anything that was specifically "male" this weekend? I have no clue, since... who cares? Too feminine? Too masculine? Dunno, wasn't paying attention.

And things like the law in Canada, which compel proper pronoun usage, are clearly a step too far, since I rather keep the government out of speech.

But yeah, once you brought in 7 billion people and super computers, it did seem a broad argument (can we still use broad? If I can't call a female a broad, then this still seems OK?).

[A Director]

Posted: 4/9/19 at 3:25am

GavestonPS said: "haterobics, maybe I allowed myself to be pulled into an argument I did not intend, but I don't believe I ever said the problem was that "nonbinary gender" is "too complex". (Come to think of it, though, I can see where my reference to 7 billion genders may have seemed to say something to that effect.)

My primary point, if I have one, is that I DO NOT BELIEVE anyone is truly "bisexual" or of "nonbinary gender". I believe gender is so fully entrenched in all human cultures that even those of us who decline to conform to gender stereotypes still feel some sense of personal gender and some sexual preference for one or the other. Now membership in the two, binary populations is somewhat fluid and I am all for everyone getting to choose who to be and whom to love. Pick your own bathroom, too, while you're at it. Who cares?

The burden of proof is on those who claim to have transcended the norms of nature and society. Otherwise, those claiming to have no preferences merely seem to assert a superiority over the masses of us trapped in our maleness or femaleness. And even that is okay, but it doesn't require to rest of us to police our pronouns.

From my point of view, with each new posting, you keep digging yourself into a hole.  From my point of view, you insult women, bisexuals, and people who say they are non-binary. From my point of view, your comments come close to telling a gay man he's just doing through a phase or he will be cured by having sex with a woman.  From my point of view, your comments would cause pain and hurt to bisexuals and non-binary people.

Why don't you take the time to listen to these people!