Sweeney Todd questions (WARNING: Possible spoilers!)- Page 4

[BroadwayChica]

Posted: 2/17/06 at 7:25pm

You're right that there are things we'll have to agree to disagree. I adore Lupone, so, I too am biased in her favor. I find her Mrs Lovett to be devilishly delightful, sexy, and hilarious. But I certainly won't flame you for not liking her- to each his/her own.

I do strongly disagree on your assessments about Anthony and Johanna, though. I find "Kiss Me" to be hilarious in ways other productions haven't been. I've never seen a production of "Sweeney Todd" in which the audience laughed SO MUCH during this song. The reduced orchestrations and the fact that you can clearly make out the lyrics certainly help, but I also find Lauren Molina and Benjamin Magnuson to be delightfully goofy during this song. Maybe you saw it with a weak audience (which, sadly, often hinders our appreciation of a show), but usually, this song is played to be delightful, funny, and sweet.

I do agree that a show SHOULDN'T require its audience to be familiar with the text. I do. But, personally, I don't mind it. And to be fair to John Doyle, I don't really agree that a person who's NEVER seen or heard about Sweeney Todd can't understand the show. I know of MANY people who saw this production, and had NO idea what Sweeney Todd was, and completely understood everything. I think any person who's attentive can easily understand what's going on.

I agree about the coffin, and had already said it was too heavy handed. But I really don't mind it that much.

And I see your point about Sweeney's descent. But I really don't interpret it the same way. I don't see this production as being a collection of insane people acting out the various parts (and I've talked about this way too much, so I won't go into it again). So I don't really see Sweeney's vulnerability as medical sedation, but rather, the result of the bitterness and wrongs he's suffered. His spirit has been destroyed. Sweeney's not just out for revenge against those who specifically harmed him, but society as a whole. Therefore, it doesn't phase me that he would enjoy killing from the very start- NO ONE is innocent, in his view. Not even Anthony. We're all part of the human race, so we ALL deserve to die.

But, again, this production is open to so many different interpretations, and I love discussing it with people who disagree with me. You're obvioualy an intelligent person, and your reasons for not liking this show are very valid. And I completely see your point, even if I do disagree on some things. It's not the usual "I hated it, it sucks" argument one often hears, so it's refreshing!

I'm on my way to see "Bernarda Alba" now, but I'll be back later to see what more you had to say. And anyone else, feel free to jump in (but no insults! Let's keep at least this thread in a civilized tone!)

[jonartdesigns]

Posted: 2/17/06 at 7:36pm

this is gonna sound dumb but can someone please explain what the hell a beadle is?

[joshy]

Posted: 2/17/06 at 7:41pm

Sorry to butt in the debate, Targem and Chica! This is really interesting.

Re: the whole audiences not understanding without having prior knowledge, I took my parents to see it, and they didn't have any problems understanding what was happening. All I told them beforehand is that they might find it a little weird, since they are pretty conventional with their theatrical tastes, and yet they loved it and were gripped the whole time. I think a lot of the details in this production obviously mean so much more if you know the piece but you can still appreciate most of it as long as you're willing to concentrate and think. That's the problem, it seems to me. Not that it's incomprehensible, but just that it's difficult. You have to be willing to think. Should theatre not be difficult just because tourists who see it might not understand it? Why can't there be difficult things that require work as well as Wickeds and Phantoms?

Sure, an audience who doesn't know it won't know what the hell is happening in 'City on Fire', but I don't think that's a vital part of the story. :) And I've only seen the UK production, so it may be a directorial or acting change - but Johanna in 'Kiss Me' certainly seemed goofy and childlike and not yet completely broken; that came later.

Is it true that the Pirelli being a woman originally came about because Doyle realised that the male and female voices would be uneven in chorus singing moments unless there was one more woman? I think I remember reading this. So, heh, this might be the real reason behind it and all the fun theories we are coming up with could be very silly, but so cool! I love yours, BroadwayChica!

[TGIF]

Posted: 2/17/06 at 7:43pm

I saw Sweeney last week. I read this thread in one go so there are so many things I would like to address/agree/disagree etc. with that I doubt it could be done all in one post!

I saw the show with my theatre class which I was thrilled about. It isn't often - lest I have time to wander on to this site - that I can see a show and have a deep, intelligent coversation about afterwards with the people I go with. (Not that people I normally go with *can't* but there usually isn't time to just sit down and talk for an hour about anything and everything with the show. So to be able to discuss it immediately afterwards on the bus ride home and in our next class ... well lets just say I was one happy theatre geek.

I believe that this production could be interperted one of two ways. 1. This is all in Toby's mind and entirely fictional. 2. This really happened, Tobias is now insane and he is telling the audience the "tale of Sweeney Todd". Either way this is from the view point/mind of Tobias. I am of the camp who prefer believing this is entirely inside Tobias' head, but I do know it is wide open for debate!

The one major thing that I did *not* enjoy was the coffin. I understood all its symbolic representations and meanings, but in a show like this - one that is rich with depthness - I almost took it as an insult. We get the barber's chair equals death. Do you not think audiences could get that?

This is definitely not all I want to say, but for now it will do for this post! I am 100% sure I will be seeing it again. It is one of those shows that you can see a dozen times and get something new or different out of it every single time.

EDIT: Just wanted to add my opinion about people who have seen it before vs. those who haven't.

This was my first time seeing a production of Sweeney Todd. I knew a good portion of the songs but not all, and had a pretty decent understanding of the plot. I believe that anyone - as long as they are an active audience member! - can enjoy the show. But those who do know more going in are just able to appreciate it on another level. They are able to pay attention to more things happening on stage rather than devoting most of their efforts to hearing the lyrics.

Updated On: 2/17/06 at 07:43 PM

[wonderfulwizard11]

Posted: 2/17/06 at 9:48pm

joshy: You are right about the nedd to even out the feamle chrus voices. That's why they had a woman play Pirelli.

jonartdesigns: I think a beadle is a law-enforcement person, sort of like the Chief of Police.

back to the topic of the thread, I loved this production and think much of the symbolism really works. I was, though, somewhat confused with the baby coffin, but it didn't distract me. I also felt the humor truly came through in this production. In a Little Priest, I have always found the song funny, but in this production I found myself laughing at every joke, because the lyrics really do come through so much clearer.

Just my two cents.

[BroadwayChica]

Posted: 2/17/06 at 10:58pm

A beadle is an authority figure closely linked to the Church (hence, corruption from both the state (the judge) and the Church (beadle)

Here's some history I dug up. I'm sure there are better sites, but, whatever, I'm lazy:

http://www.innholders.co.uk/history/beadle.htm

triplethreat, I don't know if you were being sarcastic, or sincere in your question (it's so hard to tell on message boards!). But, yes, in this production of "Sweeney Todd" the actors double as musicians, and play the entire score (from memory! No sheet music, save on the piano) onstage. It may sound strange, but it really works.

Also:

"You have to be willing to think. Should theatre not be difficult just because tourists who see it might not understand it? Why can't there be difficult things that require work as well as Wickeds and Phantoms? "

I agree 100% I think there's a place on Broadway for theatre in which the audience is REQUIRED to think. Where they're not just handed everything on a silver platter. It's refreshing to go to a show where you HAVE to use your imagination. If you go see this "Sweeney Todd", and you REALLY pay attention you should be able to follow the narrative. Just because some people don't understand the story, doesn't mean it's inaccesible. There has to be room for smart theatre, even if it's not going to appeal to everyone.

[TGIF]

Posted: 2/17/06 at 11:27pm

Refreshing is the exact word I used after I saw the show. Its a good wake up call to audiences. I believe people get so much more out of shows like these then ...er...more straight forwards shows.

[SweeneyPhanatic]

Posted: 2/18/06 at 2:43pm

First off: I havn't seen this production yet, but I know enough about it to agree that you have to actually pay attention to the words. Unlike most shows where you just sit back, relax, and look at some hot chorus girls and somehow have been entertained, this type of show requires you to stay awake, sit up, and pay attention or selse you'll be lost as soon as "No Place Like London" starts. The same can also be true for the original production (see below).

Second: Don't feel bad if you don't "get" this production the first time you see it. Just read over the synopsis on MTI's website and you'll "get" it. Also, I tried to show my grandmother the Lansbury/Hearn DVD, but she's the type of person I mentioned above, and she said it was stupid about half-way through "The Barber and His Wife" because she didn't understand it. I told her she had to actually listen to the lyrics since no song in "Sweeney" is just a filler for space, and she gave me an "Oh bulls**t" and huffed away. So if you don't understand the new version, don't feel bad: there's an old woman out there who barely understands the first fifteen minutes of the original production.

[BroadwayChica]

Posted: 2/18/06 at 3:03pm

"I told her she had to actually listen to the lyrics since no song in "Sweeney" is just a filler for space, and she gave me an "Oh bulls**t" and huffed away."

LOL!!!

[neomystyk29]

Posted: 2/18/06 at 3:20pm

I saw the production for the first time this passed Thursday. I had seen the Lansbury Hearn DVD before hand. I loved the production. I thought it was brilliant and I'm still wrapped in the symbolism and complexity of it.

I don't think I would have understood some of it without seeing the CD. For example, I would not have understood the end when Sweeney discovers Johanna in his parlor. On the recording it's obvious that she is in the parlor hiding in the chest, but in this production while it's clear she is hiding it's unclear how exactly Sweeney can walk up to her and discover her. Also, I imagine a person would be caught off guard by the opening sequence between Sweeney and Anthony.

However the show had so many things going for it. The highlights for me were the beginning, when the curtain rose and toby was there. I loved Sweeney's entrance. Seeing this production was the first time I ever enjoyed the character of Anthony, and the first time I ever enjoyed Kiss Me. My favorite parts though were the discovery of Lucy, and Mrs. Lovetts death. I love that Cerveris plays Sweeney driven insane by defeat as opposed to just mad during Lovett's murder. Hearn played it so angry, and I prefer Cerveris' choice because Sweeney is the way he is because life has kicked him too many times while he was down. He should therefore be defeated.

As for my interpretation of the show, I think that the show is something of a flashback. In the beginning of the show it's Toby tied up, and then Sweeney comes out of a coffin. This symbolizes Sweeney being dead, and Toby being driven crazy. The rest of the show therefore in my opinion is the audience's chance to see how they got there.

[InTheRed]

Posted: 2/24/06 at 4:32pm

They're both great.
I think there should be an "ensemble" Tony given to the entire cast for this production. What is asked of them is so unique and they do such a paticularly spectacualr job at executing the tremendous tasks required of them night after night, (after matinee after matinee - sheesh!)
I don't know that Broadway has ever seen the likes of such a thing, and I wish that the production and cast was handsomely and creatively awarded/rewarded for it's brilliance. That way, maybe more people will come and see the show, be inspired, and get to experience what a great communicative artform theater CAN be.
Viva John Doyle!



Updated On: 2/24/06 at 04:32 PM

[keatonbynumbers]

Posted: 2/24/06 at 4:56pm

BroadwayChica, I really love your insight involving Pirelli being played by a woman--and I'd readily agree with it, except for one thing (and this is possibly my only gripe with this production, which I love to an obsessive degree). Pirelli is never referred to as being female. Obviously, he's played by a woman but they always reference the character by saying "he" or "him"--which really bugs me. I know that they only made Pirelli female to even out the male/female singers--it would've been nice if it had subsequently revealed a sex/gender struggle, but considering the fact that Pirelli is never referred to as a woman, I feel like we're meant to ignore the fact that she is.

[mijofly19]

Posted: 2/24/06 at 5:28pm

I just saw the show last night, and was totally blown away. I'm lucky I read this thread, or else I wouldn't have picked up half of the things that were going on. I agree that this should definately win Best Ensemble. This was the first time I saw it live, but I've watched both DVDs many times, and was actually expecting to be let down by this one. Thankfully, I was wrong. I thout Michael and Patti's performances were superb, and truly loved the rest of the cast. Lauren Molina and Alex Gemignani were my favorites, though. I've never seen the Beadle get any laughs, but Alex got A TON. I loved it, and this def. won't be my last time seeing it.

[JHartnow]

Posted: 2/24/06 at 5:40pm

Excellent thread, guys. I saw the show last week and immediately wanted to see it again. My mind has been racing ever since. I don't use the word "brilliant" often, but this show certainly topped that bill. There was so much to absorb that I was, quite literally, mind numb by the end. Chilling, haunting and extremely provoking...something that you don't get everyday in the theatre world. Thank you, broadwaychica, for your insight. We need more intellect like this on Broadway, for sure...

-John
Updated On: 2/24/06 at 05:40 PM

[InTheRed]

Posted: 2/24/06 at 5:41pm

Alex is ****ing hiLARious!
Glad you saw it and loved it, and glad the thread could help.
Yay!

Hey!
Everyone go read the "worst show poster" thread - I just posted and vented about sweeney's, and I'd love you guys to check it out and respond, if so moved.
I'm on page 4

Thanks!




Updated On: 2/24/06 at 05:41 PM

[BroadwayChica]

Posted: 2/24/06 at 6:01pm

keatonbynumbers, I'd like to respond to this:

"Pirelli is never referred to as being female. Obviously, he's played by a woman but they always reference the character by saying "he" or "him"--which really bugs me. I know that they only made Pirelli female to even out the male/female singers--it would've been nice if it had subsequently revealed a sex/gender struggle, but considering the fact that Pirelli is never referred to as a woman, I feel like we're meant to ignore the fact that she is. "

While it's true that Pirelli is never referred to as being a woman, note that when "he" drops the fake Italian accent, Donna Lynne uses her natural, feminine voice. She could easily have done the standard "Irish" acccent. I'd like to think there's a reason for this. Notice as well that the line "I was just a down and out Irish lad you hired" has been changed to "I was just a down and out you hired". In that scene, any indication of gender is completely left out. I think it's ambiguous on purpose. Maybe we're not meant to notice it's a woman. But maybe we are. I just think it's an interesting directorial and acting choice. So I stand by my interpretation that there's a sense of sexual seduction in the way Donna Lynn delivers her lines in that scene (which, even if her character IS a man, is still a valid interpretation)

Kevo711, I agree that Benjamin is great in this show. But any recognition given to Manoel is certainly merited, and given his character's prominence in the show, he's far more likely to get attention come award season. In a perfect world, the Tony Awards would honor ensemble work, as well as individual performances. I can think of no better ensemble on Broadway right now than the superb cast of "Sweeney Todd".

And thanks for all the compliments. I too welcome intelligent discourse on these boards, and it's great to share different ideas/opinions about shows like this one.

[Kevo711]

Posted: 2/24/06 at 6:13pm

Oh I believe Manoel should get all the buzz and nominations/awards he deserves! He was amazing! But I was just trying to say that Benjamin is also amazing and I wish he would get more recognition... But no doubt, Manoel was FABULOUS and I'm pulling for him for the Best Featured Actor award at the Tonys!

[BroadwayChica]

Posted: 2/24/06 at 6:44pm

Yes, I agree. Benjamin's great. "Anthony" is such a difficult character to really care for (at least, I've always felt that way). But he manages to pull it off beautifully. So, yes, he deserves more recognition.

[Dirty Rotten Scoundrel]

Posted: 2/24/06 at 6:53pm

Wow, I saw this in New York City on Wednesday and I must admit, after seeing it I, too, really couldn't wrap my head around it. I wasn't sure if I loved or hated it. Now after reading the thread, I realize that it is definitely the former. There were so many things that thinking back on I noticed but thought nothing of, and you all have helped me so much in actually making sense of the production. I wish that I had more insight into the show, but I feel that I would just be redundant because I'd mostly be restating everything that's already been said.

I will most definitely be frequenting this thread, everything written here has been so thought provoking and has really helped me in fully understanding the show. So with that, thank you!

[InTheRed]

Posted: 2/24/06 at 7:07pm

Hey DRS,
on behalf of me and my 2 cents,
you're welcome!!

Hope you post your thoughts. Don't worry about redundancy - a lot of people learn through repetition!

[keatonbynumbers]

Posted: 2/24/06 at 7:17pm

"I just think it's an interesting directorial and acting choice."

No, it definitely is. I just think it truly would be a stronger message if they had gone through and switched all references to Pirelli to feminine pronouns. It's still significant sex/gender-wise to even have a female playing a male character and imbuing the character with feminine traits, but I really wish they'd gone all the way and just made the character a woman--without all the ambiguities.

This production really gets inside a person's head. I can't remember the last time I was so obsessed with a show. I wanted to see it again tonight, but I think I'll go on Sunday instead.

[Dirty Rotten Scoundrel]

Posted: 2/25/06 at 12:18am

I was just rereading this thread, and this has really nothing to do with Sweeney itself, but the idea of art therapy at an insane asylum reminded me of the play Marat/Sade. Which was about a group of asylum patients putting on a play, just chilling to think about it.

This is more supportive of the idea that it is simply a play being put on by the patients, which I don't believe it is, I agree that it is Tobias reliving his experiences, filling in the narrative gaps, drawing parallels, etc. But felt it was just something interesting to bring up.

[cathywellerstein]

Posted: 2/25/06 at 1:17am

I think that the character of Pirelli has to be a man. Tobais says in "Not While I'm Around" ...."Oh, I know you fancy him, but men ain't like women, they ain't wot you can trust, as I've lived and learned."
Pirelli is not one to be trusted...as none of the men are in the show, even Anthony.
That's why I think Pirelli must be a male character...but you're right, they needed to balance out the man/woman ratio of the actors.

[Roninjoey]

Posted: 2/25/06 at 1:30am

I don't think Sweeney Todd is saying anything about men being distrustful and women being trustworthy. Mrs. Lovett is the villain of the piece, and Johanna is a plot thrusting active character, whereas Anthony is passive. Yes, he wants to get into Johanna's pants, but damn if she doesn't want him to. She sings this whole song about it.

I liked Anthony. He has the most accessible song in the show. I liked him before the other characters revealed themselves to me.

I am surprised at how people find Cerveris's Sweeney to be so sensitive. I think he's playing a character who is completely numb. He's the creepy guy who lives down the street who doesn't talk much but just mumbles and smiles at you who actually has skinned bodies in his basement.

[BroadwayChica]

Posted: 2/25/06 at 1:38am

"I was just rereading this thread, and this has really nothing to do with Sweeney itself, but the idea of art therapy at an insane asylum reminded me of the play Marat/Sade."

Yup. This was commented on in many of the reviews for the show. I think this production stands alone, but there's certainly an element that reminds one of Marat/Sade.

"I think that the character of Pirelli has to be a man. Tobais says in "Not While I'm Around" ...."Oh, I know you fancy him, but men ain't like women, they ain't wot you can trust, as I've lived and learned." Pirelli is not one to be trusted...as none of the men are in the show, even Anthony."

I've never said that Pirelli IS a woman, but rather, that this production purposely leaves some ambiguity as to gender roles through this character. Only when Pirelli drops his/her accent, does his more "feminine" side become apparent: And Tobias never witnesses this. Therefore, in terms of gender ROLES, Pirelli the Italian has assumed the role of a man. And certainly, Tobias has known Pirelli to be a man (and also, arguably, a maternal figure) Only when faced with Sweeney Todd, is there a gender reversal: the fake pompous Italian accent becomes a soft, feminine voice. And in terms of gender roles, Pirelli becomes a sort of scorned female, or ex lover.

In other words, I don't necessarily think that there's a LITERAL interpretation in which Pirelli IS a woman dressed as a man. But there's an ambiguity that allows for different interpretations in terms of gender identities and representations.

I hope that was at least mildly coherent. :p