Minorities and the Theatre: A Discussion - Page 2

[givesmevoice]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 12:17pm

yes, that is an excellent post, HeyMrMusic.

and, this is a pet peeve of mine, but there's no such thing as reverse discrimination.

[ray-andallthatjazz86]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 12:19pm

I agree, givesmevoice.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 12:22pm

Reverse racism and reverse discrimination are a fake concept created by white people to assuage their own racist tendencies.

[givesmevoice]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 12:45pm

well, Phyllis, I think the...idea behind the term is there. discrimination against a normally dominant group does occur; I just hate the term "reverse discrimination". because would that be...not discriminating? inclusion?

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 12:51pm

Generally, though, when people cry out reverse discrimination or reverse racism it's under the context of "Why don't we have WHITE pride month?", etc.

[darquegk]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 1:03pm

To be honest, to be white or to appreciate one's whiteness is not the same as saying "I'm glad I'm not black," or "I'm glad I'm not Asian," etc.

Black means many different things- African, African American, Caribbean, South American, etc. Yet it's all lumped into one "cultural group" based on skin color. Are not whites lumped the same way?

Just because of our skin color, we shouldn't categorize ourselves or others as victim or villain. There's nothing wrong with being white, or appreciating one's whiteness. It's a culture out of many cultures. So is blackness.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 1:07pm

There's no reason to celebrate one's whiteness, though. One's whiteness has been celebrated since the year one. Of course there's nothing wrong being white, but things like Black Pride, "black" shows, etc (I was just using black as an example, but of course this encompasses all minority groups) arise to fill a void, rectify ingrained cultural stereotypes, etc.

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 1:09pm

I liked this topic better when it was about theatre.

[darquegk]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 1:11pm

I'm a light-skinned Latino, who doesn't quite feel comfortable saying "I'm white" or "I'm not white." So I have mixed feelings about this. Does saying you're proud to be in a group that has been dominant for a long time mean you devalue and hold prejudice against other groups? I don't think so. People can be proud of who they are and proud of their collective identity without it being a statement of prejudice.

[ray-andallthatjazz86]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 1:23pm

Phyllis, if our shared FOLLIES love didn't make me heart you enough, your posts on this thread definitely do.

[aliciag]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 1:32pm

To tell the truth, this is almost exactly what I am writing my junior independent paper on, focusing mostly on the African-American community. As an African-American female I have felt many times that I might be one of the few minorities in the audience. (My cousin and I still laugh about being the only ones getting a lot of the lyrics in "Big Black Lady Stops the Show" from Martin Short's show... good times).

Anyways, I was kind of looking at it from the perspective that it is great to have shows like Raisin, Color Purple, and Cat that have drawn African-Americans to the theater when for the most part they haven't been drawn before. I'm especially interested in someone's point about many Blacks coming out for Joe Turner because in the past even August Wilson has not brought many Blacks to the theater. In many ways I attribute this to another point that has been brought up before that theater isn?t really a part of the African-American culture. In many ways there is the added stigma of thinking it?s not something they do or something they can?t afford it that keeps them from attending the theater.

I think the three shows I mentioned before have had a tremendous influence on getting African-Americans into the theater. They have made use of advertising, casting, and especially group sales to make these shows more available and known to the community. Even though minorities for the most part may only be supporting shows that specifically cater to them it is still important to see that they are attending the theater at all. Making going to a Broadway show a more acceptable part of the culture is a necessary part of increasing minorities in the audience. And this increased experience of the theater may hopefully lead to more people exploring shows beyond the barriers of race and making for a more diverse audience.

Thank you for starting this topic because I think the issues of diversity in theater are incredibly interesting and important for the future. Plus you guys have just gotten me excited again about my JP, and it?s due Tuesday so I needed that last burst of energy!

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 1:34pm

Thanks, Ray. :)

I think this discussion still ties back to the main topic about theatre, but I'll say one last thing about on the subject - I defy anyone to point me to any sort of group celebrating the whiteness of its members that doesn't exist to exert some sort of supremacy over other ethnic groups.
Updated On: 4/10/09 at 01:34 PM

[hunterchi]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 1:44pm

As someone with a marketing background I think that marketing (like group sales) plays a huge role both consciously and unconsciously in this.

Let me give you an example, I'm currently invested in Blithe Spirit...now I think the show would be fun for many, many different groups of people, but do you know where I want our ad money spent? You guessed it, on the 65 and over set.

It's not that I think a 25 year old couldn't enjoy the show...it's just that we'll get a much bigger return for our advertising dollars spent if we hit the retirement market. The show is classic, and it stars Angela Lansubury so it's an easy connection to that demographic.

So similarly, if I was running Color Purple I would be advertising heavily to the African American community. The show is automatically more resonant, on average, than it is in the hispanic community. As a result, if I am an African American theatre goer it's likely that I've seen many ads for color purple, but probably not very many for Xanadu. I think that way when I decide to buy tickets I probably go with what I've heard more about. It's not that I'm seeking out shows that are about "my group", it's that those shows are seeking me out as a consumer!

H

[hubee]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 2:12pm

I was about to mention the marketing has a lot to do with it too and hunterchi beat me to it ha!

I think now the next step is that if they're doing so well in marketing to a new set of theatregoers by enticing them with stories that they think they can relate to, now the next step is to move beyond that into stories they might not think they would at first, but would like.

again, I think us on the message boards are already a group interested in theatre so thus love seeing different stuff, but now its to convince everyone that different stories can be interesting and just as universal.

But its not just on minorities, its ageism too. Like how Spring Awakening and Rent got a lot of young people to the theatre (though I'm hearing from the current Toronto stop that a lot of the older subscription base is ANGRY and DISGUSTED at SA... so I guess you can't win over everyone and force them to like it no matter what. On the other hand, it got me and my friends to subscribe for the first time)

Also, HeyMrMusic Steven mentions the Asian assimilated into white middle class thing and as an Asian brought up in a white middle class setting, I'll add myself to that demographic. Though by high school it was much more mixed, I found I had to convince a lot of friends (of all colours) to join me for shows, but usually they loved it, but had never gone before (or taken by their parents). So again, its just one of those things that I think people would like once they discover it, just most dont get that chance.

(does that make sense?)

[Amaranth9]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 2:15pm

I just wanted to add more praise for Hey Mr. Music, Phyllis Rogers Stone, and Givesmevoice for their insightful comments. I was a little troubled by some comments, but you assuaged that.

Btw, Phyllis, some of your comments remind me about an art history professor I had with the same name...she was awesome and all about digging into representation, etc. =)

[BWayJunkie]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 4:12pm

I think it has more to do with one's mindset than race necessarily. I am an African-American male and have seen 85% of the shows on Broadway at any given time for the past 14 or so months. That's just what I do. I was born and raised here and while Broadway hasn't been a passion of mine my entire life, it definitely is now and that is why I make it a point to see at least 3 shows a month. In my mind that is normal, but to one of my neighbors (I live literally In The Heights) it may not be, regardless of their skin color. My best friend is Ukrainian-American and has no desire to see any Broadway show, though there isn't any particular show that would speak to him personally.

When I see a show I do not really look around to see what the general population is but I have realized that I usually am one of the few black faces. This was the case when I saw Gypsy but also when I saw The Lion King. Like some others have said, marketing does have to do with it. I found that putting ads for Gypsy in the subways along Grand Concourse avenue in the Bronx, while smart because they're trying to reach a new audience, probably wasn't that effective because it was unfamiliar to those who'd see the posters daily and wasn't enticing enough to get them to try something new. To a lot more people than one might think, Broadway is new and unfamiliar and more so than movies (especially with Broadway ticket prices) needs more of a draw to get people in.

Shows like In the Heights, Color Purple and Cat on a Hot Tin Roof (which I wasn't a big fan of, save for James Earle Jones) will draw their respective minority groups along with general theater going audiences but a show like Billy Elliot, which may not be on the top of a Black, Hispanic or even Asian list of shows to see, could benefit from advertising to these groups if showcasing perhaps that it has student rush tickets for the same price of a movie , popcorn and soda. Its unfortunate to entertain the idea of having to convince some people to open their minds to Broadway but it doesn't hurt to try and if one out of every 5 people who passes that ad takes a chance on it, the goal was accomplished, wasn't it?

As a 21 year old African-American male it isn't difficult to persuade me to see a show. However, Broadway isn't a part of the lives of everyone, regardless of color. I don't necessarily think that residents of Harlem or Little Italy or China Town or Washington Heights would NEVER see a Broadway show but since they seem to be a harder sell, money for advertisements aren't usually placed in these communities (as far as I can see anyway). I think if producers took a chance on promoting a show not targeted to a specific group to that group, it may yield some positive results.

There's a lot more that I could say but already this has turned into a dissertation so I'll wrap it up. I do understand that a show has to make money and that is why marketing to the people you know will come to see the show is priority but taking a risk benefits the show and the newcomer from Inwood whose life might be changed by Rock of Ages or Hair. It does have something to do with ones skin color and often their perception of what they should and shouldn't be interested in but that isn't necessarily the whole story. Without trying there can be no change and without change there can be no growth... Apparently I write for Hallmark now, but ya'll understand!! Well, that was just 8 pages of my two cents.

[uncageg]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 5:51pm

An interesting thread with a good question. I have asked the same question for years about African Americans and the theater.

I am an African American Male. I grew up in the 60's and 70's. Was always active in the school plays, choir, etc. In my school a lot of black kids were involved. My 1st musical was "Purlie" and my second was "The Wiz" (A bus load of black people in my community went.) For me theater has not been about color unless the show's subject was. (Purlie, The Color Purple, Caroline or Change) And even then, it was the story that pulled me in,not that the cast was mostly or all black.

I think the reason we don't see many black people at the theater goes way way back. There was a time when blacks were not allowed to go to the theater. Blacks had the Chitlin' circuit. Those shows on the circuit were specific to the black community. Over the years blacks felt that the theater was a "white" thing or for the elite. (I have had black people tell me this) I think that still rings true today for the most part. And I think to a degree, the Chitlin' circuit kind of continued with shows like "Beauty Shop" and the Tyler Perry plays. For most of the Black people that attend these shows, it is the closest they will get to theater unless they go to see "A Raisin In the Sun" with P. Diddy or "The Color Purple". And I find that these people don't seek these shows out, they are marketed in part to the black community. My family called me about "The Color Purple" " A Raisin in the Sun" and "Cat..." My niece saw two of those shows and had no idea what else was playing on Broadway. Even a lot middle to upper class black people who can afford to go to a show don't go to the theater even if it is an all black cast.

I think education can turn this around for the most part. So many schools over the years have dropped their arts programs. I have posted here before that I was a volunteer Chair for an organization and the Denver Center called the AATF (African American Task Force) It was the very first volunteer organization at the DCPA and was started by Cleo Parker Robinson. Our goal was to expose more African Americans to theater. The DCTC (Denver Center Theater Company) normally has a very eclectic season and includes shows that appeal to the Black, Hispanic and other communities. With the adults, it was hard to get them to a show that was not "black oriented" so what we did was start a program called Take A Kid Out (TKO). Instead of just taking the kids to a show with a black cast, we made sure that they saw other productions and always included the Shakespeare production. Sadly, the AATF no longer exists. But I think that if we can expose young black kids to all kinds of theater, in the future we will hoefully see more black people attending.

Just my random thoughts. I could have gone on longer and will post more thoughts if I have them!

[WhizzerMarvin]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 5:54pm

Wow, this is a great thread!

I'm 25, White and live in Harlem. One of my roommates is White and the other is Latino. There are three other apartments on my floor and all of the inhabitants are Black. I have gotten to know my neighbors a bit, and along with my roommates, they almost all share something in common: They've rarely if ever see a Broadway show.

They all know that I go all the time (yes I do talk to my neighbors when I see them in the hall!), and they always ask me if I've seen any good shows lately. Through my discussions with the neighbors and roommates I seem to have gathered a few things.

Advertising never gets to them (and by them I mean these specific individuals). When I tell them, "Oh, last night I saw _________," it is usually met with "I've never heard of it!" I realize that MANY people in New York regardless of race have never heard of half the shows on Broadway, but the people I know in Harlem can be included in this marketing problem.

The cost is too high. One of my neighbors asked, in jest, if I was a millionaire because otherwise how could I afford to spend 100 bucks on theater 3 or 4 times a week. The discount codes, student rushes, etc are unknown. I loved the above idea of marketing in the subways with prices on ads. Come see _________ for as little as $26.50. This makes Broadway seem much more accessible.

Broadway isn't offering anything that appeals to them. This is coming from the Blacks, Latino and White. I was raving about Irena's Vow a few weeks ago basically begging them all to go give it a try. When asked why it was so good, I told them the story was moving, but the real reason was to see the brilliant acting of Tovah Feldshuh. These reasons didn't seem good enough; the piece alone was sparking the necessary interest. Same goes with Speed-the-Plow and Billy Elliot. The material seems like it will be such a stretch to have any relevancy on their lives.

This has never been explicitly said to me, but I think I can infer that they think the theater is for rich White people and gays. (I'm sure I don't help break this stereotype by endlessly gushing over Tovah Feldshuh!) Two of my neighbors were over at my apartment watching baseball when I got home the other night and they couldn't believe that I had gone to Broadway show in jeans. I think they had this stereotypical image of White men in suits and women in fancy dresses. Maybe
they think they'd be out of place in their normal clothes at the theater.

When I saw Joe Turner's for the second time I decided to stagedoor and ended up waiting with three middle aged Black women. They seemed to be surprised to learn that I had seen this twice, and wanted to know why I liked it so much. I in turn asked them if they had seen any other shows recently. Two of them had seen Cat last. They asked me about August:OC because they heard it was good, but didn't know if it was worth seeing. I really pushed hard for them to give a chance, and I'd like to think they gave it a try. If these women loved Joe Turner's I think they'd be the perfect audience for August.

Ok, this went on too long, and I don't really know if I have a big concluding point, but I do feel like there could be a good way that hasn't been tapped into to get young people of ANY color to get to the theater.

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 6:07pm

Maybe they think they'd be out of place in their normal clothes at the theater.

A lot of it is this, and I think it's a general perception that they will feel out of place, so they don't even give it a try. I wouldn't chalk it up so much to a dislike of the genre but needing to not stick out.

Back to what I said about seeing Flower Drum Song at AMTSJ: We got to the show fairly early, so we sat in our seats and of my friends started pointing out the Asian faces and said something like, "I thought they'd all be like [the token older white guy we used to work with]."

[uncageg]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 6:09pm

I am actually getting ready to leave to interview the cast of "Radio Golf" at the Denver Center. I have gotten to know 4 of the actors over the years as they have come back to the center to do other August Shows. We have briefly discussed this over the years. If I have time during the interview, I think I am going to pose this question to them during the interview. If I get a chance, I will try to include it in the interview when I post it on the BWW Denver site.

[Yankeefan007]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 6:23pm

In the reverse, why was I one of a handful of white people at Tyler Perry's THE MARRIAGE COUNSELOR at the Beacon last night?

[givesmevoice]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 9:29pm

uncageg, that's such an excellent point about education and arts programs. I would imagine there's so many people (minority or not) who are just not exposed to music other than what's played on the radio. so I would imagine there's not a huge interest generated about any other genres of music.

of course, it's totally possible to go out and educate yourself about musicals or opera or any other things, but I...just think there needs to be a bit more of a push for more people to explore outside of their comfort zone.

I also do think that shows that seem to appeal so much to minority audiences will most definitely lead audience members to explore all the other shows out there. I especially think anyone who sees In the Heights or reads about Lin-Manuel might be curious to look into Sondheim shows, since Lin is so vocal about how much Sondheim influenced him. we all have our first show which opens up the world of musical theater (or theater in general). how or why we get to that first show doesn't matter.


I also totally agree with the angle on marketing. I wish I had more to comment on on that topic, but I really don't, that hasn't been said.

[esparza 333]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 10:12pm

Diverse audiences are rare in some shows as said but I think for shows like The Color Purple, In the Heights, and Passing Strange the moral of the scenarios depicted are something that anyone can relate to. We all go through struggle, we all have communities, and we all have faced some sort of prejudice in our lives. However, the emotion connection for people of different races is more generalized. For example caucasians might not be able to relate to some of the particular events that happened in Passing Strange. The moral out of it they can relate to but not the actual event.

I am also interested in how idiosyncrasies are viewed on stage. For example Sarah Jones's Bridge and Tunnel poked fun at minorities and their idiosyncrasies. While people of minorities probably knew that fun would be poked at them I still wonder how their reactions were. For people who saw that do you remember how diverse the audiences were? And If You are of a minority how did you react to this show?Also were there any weird reactions or outbursts from audience members before, after or during the show?

[uncageg]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 11:02pm

givesmevoice,

I just got back from doing my interview and I did pose the question to the cast. They talked for almost 15 minutes about it. A VERY passionate discussion. Marketing and education came up. I hope to get it transcribed and up by the end of the weekend.

[hunterchi]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 11:07pm

Look forward to it uncageg!