13 Reasons Why on Netflix - Page 3

[Jane2]

Posted: 5/5/17 at 2:59pm

Erik said "You want to encourage them to get help"

Yes, I agree with that. And it's a shame that the one person she finally did go to for help didn't choose to err on the side of caution. 

The series chose to focus more on how we can prevent someone from even getting to the point of contemplating suicide - show more love and human compassion to each other.

[ErikJ972]

Posted: 5/5/17 at 3:13pm

I hear what you're saying Jane. But the notion that "if you're just nicer to someone they won't kill themselves" is a myth too.

The message this show sends to teens is...don't seek help but just be nicer to everyone. In reality it's not that easy. That's why we spend so much time trying to educate teens on what to do if they suspect a friend is considering suicide.

The single most important thing that can save someone from suicide is getting professional help.

The other major problem I have is the show suggests that Hannah gets some type of revenge on her tormentors through the 13 tapes that she leaves behind. This is also a very dangerous message to send to vunerable teens. When you kill yourself you're not teaching anyone a lesson...you're just dead. It's a final solution to a temporary problem. 

I do think this show got some things right in its portrayal of bullying. And all of the damage it can do. But it gets pretty much everything about suicide wrong.

[Jane2]

Posted: 5/5/17 at 3:32pm

"I hear what you're saying Jane. But the notion that "if you're just nicer to someone they won't kill themselves" is a myth too."

I think you've simplified the message here and made it in too much of a general statement. This was a specific case, and in this case, showing care and love would have made a difference. You said "being nice to someone'" Being nice is not what we're trying to make happen. The kids were nice to Hannah, on the surface.

"The message this show sends to teens is...don't seek help but just be nicer to everyone."

again - "nice" If only niceness would work. We're talking about something much more meaningful than nice.

"The other major problem I have is the show suggests that Hannah gets some type of revenge on her tormentors through the 13 tapes that she leaves behind."

That's not what I inferred. I got that the reason for the tapes was to educate - to enlighten the people who had no idea the repercussions of their actions. It should be an education to all who viewed the series.

" But it gets pretty much everything about suicide wrong."

everything wrong? Except for Hannah not seeking help nor receiving it with the right people, what did they get wrong?

[Liza's Headband]

Posted: 5/5/17 at 3:46pm

He very clearly stated what it got wrong, you're just choosing not to acknowledge and process that. 

[Jane2]

Posted: 5/5/17 at 3:56pm

I'm speaking to Erik, Einstein.

[Jane2]

Posted: 5/5/17 at 6:50pm

Ok, yeah, well the bottom line is that this wasn't meant to be the encyclopedia of suicide, nor an issue of the AMA. It is meant to be the visual production of a book which is specifically about the huge problem of bullying that we have in our schools (and elsewhere).

They have hit the nail on the head in what they were aiming for.

[adamgreer]

Posted: 5/5/17 at 7:42pm

I'm 4 episodes in and not wild about it or its message, but I plan to see it through to the end before I offer criticism.

On a semi-related note, I had no idea Brian D'Arcy James was on the show, or that Brian Yorkey was an executive producer.  

[Broadway Joe]

Posted: 5/7/17 at 8:53pm

Season 2 is confirmed. I'm really curious to see how it's filmed and where it goes. 

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 5/8/17 at 11:01am

I recently finished the series and I did find it a compelling story, but I'm not convinced it hit the nail on the head regarding its message other than the most obvious "STOP BULLYING" (though I'd say the "STOP RAPING" message is at the very least AS important).  I was just extremely frustrated by the characterization of Hannah to the point where I just couldn't buy into her motivations and methods.

 

Click Here To Toggle Spoiler Content

Hannah was empowered enough to spend a week planning her suicide by narrating all those tapes, going into such specific detail, but not enough to disclose all this to anyone who could actually help?  Tapes that could just have easily been ignored or thrown away because, well, as we've seen, people are evil, can't be trusted, and when you're dead, you are even more useless than you are when you're alive and do nothing.  

She even goes so far as to purposely NOT disclose details to the counselor and record the conversation, deliberately NOT answering the questions he specifically said he needed to assist, portray him as the bad guy for not immediately clamoring after her, and killing herself the same day because he didn't play the part of her personal Deus Ex Machina within a matter of hours?  She guilts Clay on the tape for not doing what she secretly wanted even though she always deliberately kept him at arm's length and pushed him away.  

To me, the story seemed to tug on the emotions of the effects of horrible irresponsible behavior of teens, but this sort of revenge method of suicide it used as the engine to drive the story only weakened the case for the victim as far as I was concerned.  With all that empowerment, anger, resolve and judgment in her narrative on the tapes, her suicide seemed more of an act for attention to lay the guilt more heavily on the others than to actually affect change for others.  By the end, I thought the message was muddied.

And the second season plot seemed pretty obvious to me (and perhaps exploitative).  

 

 

Click Here To Toggle Spoiler Content

It looks like it's going to focus on a school shooting (or potential shooting?) based on the photographer kid who was stockpiling weapons in the trunk in his room.  He had the memory of Clay saying something nice to him, then removed his photo from the line in the darkroom, which appears to hold the photos of his targets.

 

[hork]

Posted: 5/8/17 at 11:43am

SPOILERS ahead, I guess.

Hannah was empowered enough to spend a week planning her suicide by narrating all those tapes, going into such specific detail, but not enough to disclose all this to anyone who could actually help?  

That was the point. She had just gotten through being hurt by 12 people in her life. She felt like she had no one to turn to, and she wasn't going to risk being hurt again. I mean, 12 people, that's a lot. I completely understand her choice to close herself off completely after that.

Tapes that could just have easily been ignored or thrown away because, well, as we've seen, people are evil, can't be trusted, and when you're dead, you are even more useless than you are when you're alive and do nothing. 

Well, Tony had copies, and was told to release them publicly if they were ignored or thrown out.

She even goes so far as to purposely NOT disclose details to the counselor and record the conversation, deliberately NOT answering the questions he specifically said he needed to assist, portray him as the bad guy for not immediately clamoring after her, and killing herself the same day because he didn't play the part of her personal Deus Ex Machina within a matter of hours? 

Yeah, because he was awful to her. He was her last chance to find some human compassion, and he said completely the wrong thing. Why would she want to engage with him after that? And then he didn't even care enough to follow her out the door, which was the final straw for her. She was already planning to kill herself that day, but decided to give the counselor his shot to possibly change her mind, to give her some other alternative. And he blew it.

[Broadway Joe]

Posted: 5/8/17 at 12:09pm

I  agree with a lot if what Mister Matt said about Hannah and that's why for me Clay is the character I actually care more about. For me it's just as much his series as it is hers.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 5/8/17 at 1:20pm

Continued SPOILER alert...

That was the point. She had just gotten through being hurt by 12 people in her life. She felt like she had no one to turn to, and she wasn't going to risk being hurt again. I mean, 12 people, that's a lot. I completely understand her choice to close herself off completely after that.

She chose not to turn to anyone along the way.  She chose not to report incidents or crimes.  

Well, Tony had copies, and was told to release them publicly if they were ignored or thrown out.

So?  What in the story (or at least in the series) leads us to believe everyone will do exactly as Hannah tells them to do on the tapes, including Tony?

And then he didn't even care enough to follow her out the door, which was the final straw for her.

Not really.  It was a situation she orchestrated and immediately following her out the door was only significant in her narrative.  Because after repeatedly shutting him down, chasing after her and begging her or whatever that action meant to her was somehow the significant trigger to a melodramatic plot.  He could have been calling the principal, calling her parents, calling the police, sorting out his next move, but as with Clay, he didn't do precisely what she wanted while communicating the exact opposite to him.       

She was already planning to kill herself that day, but decided to give the counselor his shot to possibly change her mind, to give her some other alternative. And he blew it.

See...that's what I'm talking about right there.  She's using her circumstances to "test him" and ultimately, to guilt him over her week-long planned suicide because he SHE CHOSE NOT TO DISCLOSE INFORMATION.  Yes, he handled the first interaction terribly.  But when she returns, he specifically tells her what he needs to know due to his position and protocol, none of which was unreasonable and she DELIBERATELY avoids to manipulate the situation as evidence of his negligence...because she already decided to kill herself on the same day?  Why...to increase the dramatic effect of his "not following her"?  Sorry, but the way that's portrayed in the story is a total fail on her part.  She did not intend to give him his last shot.  She just wanted to extend his tape.  She set it up for him to fail to fit her narrative.

For me it's just as much his series as it is hers.

Moreso, for me.  I just felt bad for him that he couldn't get past Hannah's emotional manipulation of him and the huge guilt she unfairly placed on him.  More than anything, I wanted him to be allowed to get angry with her and let the audience know why.  If the story is to be a psychological exploration of abuse, suicide and the aftermath of the survivors, that should have played into the narrative.  Instead, it focused more on the revenge tactic, which was why I think it derailed a bit irresponsibly.  Sure, it made for a compelling story, but if it's going to attempt to take a therapeutic and moral high road, which clearly seems to be the aim, it misses the bullseye of its target.  While Hannah's behavior could be explained by the fear, stress and anxiety of her abuse, the show sidesteps explorations of her behavior and her choices.  If it's meant to be a cautionary tale, I have a real problem with it.

[Jane2]

Posted: 5/8/17 at 1:56pm

I guess there's plenty to criticize about the way Hannah went about her suicide. However, I still maintain that the purpose of the story was to point out how bullying can affect a person.

they nailed it on that.

[BakerWilliams]

Posted: 5/8/17 at 2:05pm

This show is some horrifically suicide-glorifying stuff. An evil, evil show.

[Jane2]

Posted: 5/8/17 at 2:57pm

To the people who think this glorifies suicide, please give reasons for your  judgment. I find your opinions difficult to understand.

[ErikJ972]

Posted: 5/8/17 at 3:00pm

Jane2 said: "To the people who think this glorifies suicide, please give reasons for your  judgment. I find your opinions difficult to understand."

Mainly because it portrays suicide as a revenge fantasy. 

 

[Jane2]

Posted: 5/8/17 at 3:11pm

So do you think teenagers are that cavalier about ending their lives?

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 5/8/17 at 3:25pm

So do you think teenagers are that cavalier about ending their lives?

I don't know if they are, but the show certainly appeared to me to lean in that direction.  There is certainly a theme of "I'll make them ALL sorry" that drives nearly every episode.  Her last day with the counselor leading to her death seemed pretty cavalier to me.

[Jane2]

Posted: 5/8/17 at 3:42pm

 Suicide is the most drastic and final thing one can do. I'll never be convinced that this story would prompt one to kill themselves so that they can say "I'll make them sorry." No way.

Thanks for your replies.

btw, you say she was cavalier with the counselor. It's common for the person planning suicide, once they've made up their mind, to plan everything out that they will do beforehand. I refer to things like giving away cherished possessions, etc. They do it calmly.

Updated On: 5/8/17 at 03:42 PM

[ErikJ972]

Posted: 5/8/17 at 3:53pm

I don't think watching 13 Reasons Why alone would promot anyone to kill themselves. But I do think it's dangerous for kids who may already be contemplating suicide. Yes, suicide is the most drastic and final thing once can do. Unforutunately 13 Reasons Why doesn't present it as such.

 

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 5/8/17 at 4:29pm

It's common for the person planning suicide, once they've made up their mind, to plan everything out that they will do beforehand. I refer to things like giving away cherished possessions, etc. They do it calmly.

I could understand that of an adult, especially those with a history of depression and/or suicide attempts.  And I've certainly heard of it with those who choose suicide as a form of euthanasia when facing the end stages of a terminal illness.  I don't know how true it is among suicides of young teens.

Yes, suicide is the most drastic and final thing once can do. Unforutunately 13 Reasons Why doesn't present it as such.

I agree.  For me, the whole thing ended up having the opposite effect of what seemed to be intended.  I mostly felt bad for Clay and Tony.  And my favorite character was the angry girl who worked in the coffee shop.  I wanted her to just kick everyone's ass.

[Jane2]

Posted: 5/8/17 at 4:55pm

Maybe I've had more of an education re suicide, maybe not. But those who are planning it do not walk around like deranged maniacs or super depressed people. Most of the time, no one even suspects it and are shocked when it happens. "I just saw him yesterday, and he was fine, etc...."

Anyway, thanks for your replies.

[Broadway Joe]

Posted: 5/8/17 at 5:19pm

Forgetting the rest of the series for a moment I think the actual scene of her commiting suicide does anything but glorify suicide, it was painful and sad to watch and her parents finding her and their reactions were devastating. 

[hork]

Posted: 5/8/17 at 7:33pm

Mister Matt said:
She chose not to turn to anyone along the way.  She chose not to report incidents or crimes.  

Turn to whom? Report what? Other than the two rapes (which victims are often too afraid or embarrassed to report) and the car accident (which she did report), what is there to report? Nobody else did anything illegal, except for the creepy stalker guy, and she's obviously not going to report that.


Well, Tony had copies, and was told to release them publicly if they were ignored or thrown out.

So?  What in the story (or at least in the series) leads us to believe everyone will do exactly as Hannah tells them to do on the tapes, including Tony?

We don't really learn anything about her relationship with Tony, but he's a stand-up guy and she apparently trusted him. As for everyone else, I just told you why.

And then he didn't even care enough to follow her out the door, which was the final straw for her.

Not really.  It was a situation she orchestrated and immediately following her out the door was only significant in her narrative.  Because after repeatedly shutting him down, chasing after her and begging her or whatever that action meant to her was somehow the significant trigger to a melodramatic plot.  He could have been calling the principal, calling her parents, calling the police, sorting out his next move, but as with Clay, he didn't do precisely what she wanted while communicating the exact opposite to him.       

See...that's what I'm talking about right there.  She's using her circumstances to "test him" and ultimately, to guilt him over her week-long planned suicide because he SHE CHOSE NOT TO DISCLOSE INFORMATION.  Yes, he handled the first interaction terribly.  But when she returns, he specifically tells her what he needs to know due to his position and protocol, none of which was unreasonable and she DELIBERATELY avoids to manipulate the situation as evidence of his negligence...because she already decided to kill herself on the same day?  Why...to increase the dramatic effect of his "not following her"?  Sorry, but the way that's portrayed in the story is a total fail on her part.  She did not intend to give him his last shot.  She just wanted to extend his tape.  She set it up for him to fail to fit her narrative.

Have you ever faced depression, or an emotional crisis of some sort? This is exactly how one behaves in such a state. You don't know how to talk about it or to answer questions, you hope the other person will just magically know how to fix you, and you play these sorts of mind games with yourself. Logic and critical thinking don't really play a part. She reacted to the counselor exactly the way anyone would have. I'm not sure what you mean by "when she returns." If I remember correctly, she didn't return after he told her to "move on." She gave him a chance, and he told her to move on, which is the worst possible thing he could have said.

[hork]

Posted: 5/8/17 at 7:34pm

BakerWilliams said: "This show is some horrifically suicide-glorifying stuff. An evil, evil show.

Wow, now it's evil? I feel like its detractors are far more melodramatic than the show itself.