Friends of Dorothy- Page 2

[miss pennywise]

Posted: 11/21/08 at 4:09pm

Maybe this has been dealt with already, but the other day something just hit me:

"Ding, Dong, the witch is dead! WHICH old witch? The WICKED witch!"

How does this actually answer the question? The question is "WHICH old witch?" There's a "Wicked Witch of the West" and a "Wicked Witch of the East." Simply saying "The WICKED witch" doesn't really tell us!

Has anyone else ever thought about this? Or is this the kind of thing you start thinking about when you're recovering from an illness that keeps you sidelined for a long time?

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 11/21/08 at 4:17pm

Well, I always thought the question was rhetorical.

I DID, as a child, think the lyrics were, "She's gone where the goblins go, below, below below your hole"

[best12bars]

Posted: 11/21/08 at 4:21pm

Well, if everyone wants to start picking it to death like an ugly scab, I'll try to defend my favorite movie... and then I'll probably just get mad, fart, and leave the room:

"Are you a good witch or a bad witch?"

Glinda already knows Dorothy isn't from Oz. She fell from the sky from a "foreign place" called Kansas. Why would she assume the rules are the same as they are in Oz? Glinda is much smarter than that. She also asks Dorothy if Toto is a witch. Because, basically, they're both aliens in Oz. And they just killed a witch themselves.

"I think I'll miss you most of all" is whispered into the Scarecrow's ear (drawn as it may be). She's known him the longest, and he's helped many times along the way with his wisdom. But she doesn't announce it to the group like it was a reality show contest.

Plus it was probably in Ray Bolger's contract ... how the hell should *I* know?!

And there is only one "wicked witch" with any power or relevance in Munchkinland. The Witch of the East. She's the one who lives there and has been terrorizing them, right up until Dorothy's house kills her.

The Witch of the West? She's just an unwanted traveler from a faraway land (the Winkie Country), who shows up suddenly, perhaps even for the first time, to find out what just happened to her sister. She can't do any magic there, because she has no power in Munchkinland. The "little people" who live there would have little cause to worry about her even visiting, let alone hurting them.

Next?

Updated On: 11/21/08 at 04:21 PM

[miss pennywise]

Posted: 11/21/08 at 4:22pm

Phyllis, for over 40 years I accepted these truths to be self-evident. Then suddenly, I was like, "HEY! People! Demand more of your celebratory lyrics!!!"

[Jane2]

Posted: 11/21/08 at 4:26pm

Give me a minute, Besty. I'm trying to think of a question..

[Jane2]

Posted: 11/21/08 at 4:28pm

I didn't think of one yet, but my favorite line from the entire film is - "Some people go both ways."

[PalJoey]

Posted: 11/21/08 at 4:34pm

It just means don't travel hoping to figure out who you are and what you really want in life. You'll find those things inside

Perfectly said. That line always bugged me. When I went to college, I wanted to get OUT of the Bronx, I didn't want to talk like I came from the Bronx, and I didn't want to have anything to do with the Bronx.

Now I love that I am a Bronx boy, and I love that even if I were to realize on e of my many dreams and retire to a spacious apartment on the Ile St. Louis, I would still be a boy from the Bronx.

My big gripe in the movie has always been with Glinda. If the "Good" Witch always knew how to get Dorothy home, why didn't tell her click her heels and repeat that mumbo-jumbo long before the monkeys flew off with her?

She coulda gotten Dorothy KILLED!

"You had to learn it for yourself..." Bull-SH*T! Screw you, lady--and the BUBBLE you blew in on!

[best12bars]

Posted: 11/21/08 at 4:42pm

LOL

True, PJ.

But Glinda was looking out for them all the time. Remember the Poppy Field? When Dorothy falls asleep (potentially forever), Glinda rescues them. So I never really went so far as to think Dorothy's life was in danger, despite some pretty scary adventures.

Plus, she's wearing the shoes, and even the Wicked Witch of the West doesn't have enough power to take them from her.

AND... (this you would only know if you read the book)... Glinda kisses Dorothy's forehead right before she leaves Munchkinland. It's in the movie too, but it's incidental. In the book it's more important. She tells Dorothy that this kiss will protect her on her journey.

(Well, actually, it's the Good Witch of the North who does that. Glinda, in the books, is the Good Witch of the South. But they combined the two good witches together to give Billie Burke more screen time.)

[Jane2]

Posted: 11/21/08 at 4:42pm

Yeah, that Glinda was a sadist!

[best12bars]

Posted: 11/21/08 at 4:45pm

Jane---The Scarecrow has some wonderful lines in the movie.

"Some people without brains do an awful lot of talking," is another one!

Updated On: 11/21/08 at 04:45 PM

[roquat]

Posted: 11/21/08 at 4:52pm

I think this is a failure in the adaptation. In the book, after the Scarecrow meets Dorothy and learns her history, he asks her why she wants to leave bright and beautiful Oz to get back to dead, cold, gray Kansas, and she replies "there's no place like home." She knew it all along--there's none of this "had to learn it for herself" crap. She's also a lot more self-reliant and resilient in the book.

I love the movie as much as any gay guy, but that "what have you LEARNED, Dorothy?" stuff at the end is tripe. Noel Langley, one of the scriptwriters on the film, fought like hell to have it removed and lost.

[Jane2]

Posted: 11/21/08 at 4:57pm

Besty-I love this exchange-

Scarecrow: The sum of the square roots of any two sides of an isosceles triangle is equal to the square root of the remaining side. Oh joy! Rapture! I got a brain! How can I ever thank you enough?
Wizard of Oz: You can't.

[Paul W. Thompson]

Posted: 11/21/08 at 4:59pm

People who hate their lives, or at least their childhoods, have a hard time with that line. But I think it means that if your heart's desire isn't in your heart, well, check the back porch--it hasn't gone far!

I am now singing "Home" from the Madison Square Garden "A Christmas Carol."

[best12bars]

Posted: 11/21/08 at 5:00pm

Exactly, Jane! And aside from the Wizard's wisecrack... the Scarecrow's recitation of the Pythagorean Theorem is incorrect!

...so it kinda proves absolutely nothing.

(He already HAD a brain, don'tcha know... with or without that geometry quote.)

Updated On: 11/21/08 at 05:00 PM

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 11/21/08 at 7:42pm

Goblin your hole....


Hmmmmm....

Updated On: 11/21/08 at 07:42 PM

[best12bars]

Posted: 11/21/08 at 9:32pm

Oh, for crap's sake!

[miss pennywise]

Posted: 11/22/08 at 3:41am

Okay, Mr. Besty Smartypants, if there's only ONE witch who has any power in Munchkinland, then why ask "WHICH old witch?" at all!!! They already know the answer, so sing something else for chrissakes!

BTW, I heard some Oz Historian say that he discovered in an earlier version of the script, Dorothy and Hunk were supposed to be having an innocent little romance on the farm, so the "I think I'll miss you most of all" line was supposed to relate to that, but they dropped the romance angle somewhere along the way.

[nygrl232]

Posted: 11/22/08 at 5:12am

Dorothy and Hunk? Hot.

Lovely posts, bestie.

I like these quotes:

Dorothy - He said, 'Oilcan.'
Scarecrow - Oilcan what?

and

Dorothy - Her broom, may we have it?
Witch's soldier guy - Please. And take it with you.

I just want Dorothy to reply, "Okay THANKS, 'cause we were just gonna stand here and hold the broom for all of eternity."

[Scripps2]

Posted: 11/22/08 at 5:46am

One of my friends (who thinks I'm too clever by half) uses the "friends of Dorothy" expression and believes it to be a reference to Judy Garland.

He's going to be so disgruntled when I correct him.

[Elphaba]

Posted: 11/22/08 at 9:01am

it's pretty self-explanatory....it's exactly as Besty said......Home is where the heart is, all you need is within you, etc.........my question is how could anyone NOT get it?

Pennywise, apparently there is a Witch of the South that we have yet to hear about.

[StageManager2]

Posted: 11/22/08 at 10:34am

Elphie, it's the wording of the second part ("because if it isn't there, I never really lost it to begin with") that had confused us. "It" being her heart's desire. If it's not in her "backyard," then she never lost it? That's why I was wondering if it meant you can't lose what you never had.

[best12bars]

Posted: 11/22/08 at 10:50am

"Okay, Mr. Besty Smartypants, if there's only ONE witch who has any power in Munchkinland, then why ask "WHICH old witch?" at all!!! They already know the answer, so sing something else for chrissakes! "


It's a rhetorical question, for cripes sake! (or crap's sake?)

Do you think people who go to a protest rally with signs are really clueless about why they're there? Do they really need some leader shouting:

"What do we want?"

Answer: "Equal rights!"

"When do we want it?"

Answer: "Now!"

They say it over and over again? Is that because they forgot? No.

Rhetorical questions, with rhetorical answers!

They're not really asking "which old witch?" anymore than the leader of the protest rally is asking why everybody is there and what they want.

Sheesh!

*end of smarty pants answer*

"BTW, I heard some Oz Historian say that he discovered in an earlier version of the script, Dorothy and Hunk were supposed to be having an innocent little romance on the farm, so the "I think I'll miss you most of all" line was supposed to relate to that, but they dropped the romance angle somewhere along the way."

As far as I know, Dorothy was always written into the MGM script as a child. They thought Garland might be too old to play it initially. She's supposed to be twelve in the movie (according to MGM). I don't think there was a romance planned for her at all... however, Mickey Rooney was originally scheduled to play the Scarecrow. And MGM was working on pairing the duo in Babes in Arms right after Oz (which they did), due to the success of Love Finds Andy Hardy, where the Garland and Rooney chemistry first ignited. If anything, I would guess the line was there, thinking it was a lovely Garland/Rooney moment in Oz.

There WAS a romance planned in the script for two characters that both ultimately were cut before shooting ever started: Miss Gulch had a son, who had a counterpart in Oz. And there was a princess in Oz that he fell in love with. They were to be played by two MGM kids (who were in Babes In Arms, and other films of that era): Kenny Baker and Betty Jaynes. Betty was an opera singer, and you can see her (as Rooney's sister) and Judy Garland doing a nice "opera vs. swing" duet in Babes in Arms.

They ultimately cut them from the Oz script early on because it was pulling too much focus away from the story.

Glinda also had a counterpart in Kansas that was cut early on to tighten the script.




"I like these quotes:

Dorothy - He said, 'Oilcan.'
Scarecrow - Oilcan what? "

Except his answer is "Oil can what?"

It's like a bad Vaudeville joke playing on two different meanings of "can."

And there were plenty of wonderfully bad Vaudeville jokes in Wizard of Oz. In fact, the two secondary writers credited on the final script were Florence Ryerson and Edgar Allen Wolf. They were both called in to "punch up" the script to add jokes and humor. Many of these Vaudeville lines were added by them. A lot of the lion's dialogue too.

Incidentally, the original shooting script was written by a 23-year-old! Noel Langley. He gets first credit as a writer on the film. And he HATED the movie when he first saw the final film. He reportedly left in tears, saying they had ruined it. I don't think he liked the added Vaudeville humor much.

Updated On: 11/22/08 at 10:50 AM

[Jane2]

Posted: 11/22/08 at 10:53am

Bestly-I am truly impressed!

[best12bars]

Posted: 11/22/08 at 11:05am

"I think this is a failure in the adaptation. In the book, after the Scarecrow meets Dorothy and learns her history, he asks her why she wants to leave bright and beautiful Oz to get back to dead, cold, gray Kansas, and she replies "there's no place like home." She knew it all along--there's none of this "had to learn it for herself" crap. She's also a lot more self-reliant and resilient in the book.

I love the movie as much as any gay guy, but that "what have you LEARNED, Dorothy?" stuff at the end is tripe. Noel Langley, one of the scriptwriters on the film, fought like hell to have it removed and lost."


Roquat---you (of all people with that name!) know there's more to it than that, as far as the differences in the book.

There was no Glinda who visited her in Munchkinland first, and then sent her on her journey "already knowing" the shoes could take Dorothy home. Glinda doesn't show up in the book until the very end, and they have to travel to her castle, after the Wizard leaves, to ask for her help. Glinda then reveals that the shoes have the power to take her home. The Good Witch of the North in Munchkinland presumably doesn't know the shoes can do this. Anyway, it's two different good witches, and so there's no "revealed motive" of "she had to learn it for herself" in the book. For that reason. Two good witches. Two POVs.

And Noel Langley was a bright kid, but they rightfully took his script away from him and added humor and an "emotional journey" for Dorothy to match her "physical journey." That's one of the biggest problems with the book, if you're going to dramatize it. The leading character is pretty much a cypher. Baum fleshed her out in future books. And it works fine, as is, on the page. But if the audience (in a theatrical adaptation) is going to care about her at all, they're going to have to be pulled into the main characters more. That's why they added this emotional revelation for Dorothy, and added the humor for her three comrades. So we, as an audience, would care about them and like them. Otherwise the story wouldn't resonate much.

A very wise decision. And judging from the success and longevity of this film, I'd say it worked.

I'm just glad they didn't cut "Over the Rainbow," which almost happened after the first preview. That would have killed her emotional journey completely. And we'd be stuck with a clueless, cute little farm girl, wandering around Oz with the personality of a metallic ball inside a pinball machine being batted around from place to place. No thanks.

Arthur Freed (the uncredited associate producer of Wizard of Oz) laid his job on the line for that decision! Louis B. Mayer and Mervyn Le Roy (the producer) decided if it meant THAT much to him (and a few others who also protested), they would leave it in.

Updated On: 11/22/08 at 11:05 AM

[HellsBells2]

Posted: 11/22/08 at 11:11am

Best, I love reading all your analysis!!!!! Very insightful, thought-provoking and interesting. This has been extremely good reading. Thank you