The End of Brokeback Mountain (Massive Spoilers)- Page 9

[robbiej]

Posted: 12/29/05 at 4:43pm

I knew that!
And it's something I've been wanting to discuss and have had to gear myself up to it. This is EXHAUSTING!

I actually tried to stay away from the topic of this movie, if only because I felt people would say I was merely being a contrarian. Believe me, any movie that makes me think this much and forces me to define what I believe in as a political, gay human being and artist is obviously successful on some level.

[Luscious]

Posted: 12/29/05 at 4:43pm

Interesting article for those who might be interested.

Love As Revolution

One of the best films of the year, Brokeback Mountain redefines queer cinema as a tool for civil rights.

http://www.wweek.com/popup/print.php?index=7048

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 12/29/05 at 4:48pm

Allow me to break the mounting tension for a moment, simply because this is just funny.

My mom and I saw the movie yesterday. During the sex scene, in the midst of the silence of it all, my mother goes "I don't think they're gay. I think they're just bored!"

[robbiej]

Posted: 12/29/05 at 4:50pm

As was I, luv.

I KID...I KID!!! I wasn't bored.

As for that article, I think the writer may have it just a little wrong. I don't think queer cinema has been redefined. I think it's straight cinema that is coming in for the revolution. Which is a good thing.

[roquat]

Posted: 12/29/05 at 5:49pm

Some people on this thread have expressed shock and outrage that a straight female writer would dare write a story about two strapping Wyoming lads who fall in love without being completely "out and proud" about it. In Wyoming. In 1963 (when African-American men were still being lynched for looking at white women). And how, goes the argument, could those same two men not loosen up and express their love openly by 1983 (the start of the Reagan years)?

Hmmm.

I can only use my own experience to answer this. I once worked as an accompanist for a gay men's chorus. Almost all of the members were in their fifties and sixties (i.e., they would have been Jack and Ennis' contemporaries). Most of them had been married to women; several had children; some even had grandchildren. Thankfully, almost all of these men were happy and partnered now, but only after decades of struggle--against their generations' imperative to "go forth and multiply", against social taboos, self-hatred, and God knows what else. I think their real-life stories would have marked similarities to "Brokeback Mountain". And some of them would be just as compelling.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 12/29/05 at 6:02pm

:::Some people on this thread have expressed shock and outrage that a straight female writer would dare write a story about two strapping Wyoming lads who fall in love without being completely "out and proud" about it.:::

That is a deliberate and willful mischaracterization. What *I* have expressed in this regard is how surprised I am that so many gay men seem to have embraced what is essentially Annie Proulx's fantasy of what happens when two men are drawn together. Because, it bears no resemblance to any reality I have seen or heard of and believe me, I've done enough oral histories of married men who have sex with men to know that they don't behave the way these two characters do.

A flip side of this is how many women embraced what is essentially a gay male fantasy of what women are like in the whole "Sex & The City" phenomenon.

My major beef is that so many of the details are just plain WRONG and yet so many gay guys are just gaga over the supposedly "accurate" depiction of love.

They shoulda just called the movie "Crumbs." I'm surprised how many people have managed to make a satisfying meal out of it.

[Auggie27]

Posted: 12/29/05 at 7:55pm

I joined this board in autumn of 03, before we even had an OT board, and instantly got into a protracted debate about the negative modelling witnessed in QUEER EYE, which was hot, hot, hot then. I thought the fab five the biggest step back in twenty years (how I wish I had the "accessories to straight people" line of Ms. Dargas back then!)

RobbieJ, I still remember what you said to me, generously ... a olive branch dangled in front of my red, pouty face ... which I took to heart: Something along the lines that (post-Stonewall) progress takes time, movement forward for any oppressed group is incremental, and even in its quest to spread fabulousness QUEER EYE plays a miniscule part of it. I didn't want to agree, but I respected you, even then, and tried to embrace the concept.

So Same Time, Next Gay Year, in the glass-is-half-full dept, I find the general discourse about BROKEBACK to be compelling progress. I dare say there's a tad more to say about Mr. Lee's film than that bevy of opinionated accessorizers, and so I'll hang onto that.

Updated On: 12/29/05 at 07:55 PM

[roquat]

Posted: 12/29/05 at 8:16pm

Thank you, Auggie. I think that's a perfect signing-off for this thread...

Posted: 12/29/05 at 8:29pm

from RobbyJ:

"The thing that's most disappointing is that here was this movie that was to shatter stereotypes, but ended up (in my mind) reinforcing others. I'll never forget, as a child, overhearing my mom, a rather progressive woman when it comes to this subject, say that she feels bad for gay people because it seems like such a lonely life. And this movie reinforces that particular stereotype. It just seems such like such a retro vision of a gay experience. Not that it's not based in truth. But let's not kid ourselves that this film is our saviour. It's the start of a very long discussion."

I respectfully disagree with your point-of-view on the movie. To me, its clear that when Jack and Ennis are together, they are extremely happy, not lonely. In earlier depictions of gays, they were depicted as lonely and miserable because of their homosexuality. This movies turns it around - they are in love, and it is perfectly natural (never more beautifully shot IMHO). Ennis' anxiety and trouble comes from suppressing his feelings for Jack. It isn't homosexuality that is making them lonely but their society's insistance on viewing their type of love as something to repress and kill that makes them and the people close to them suffer. When they get together on BBM they both are happy - the real disease is the homophobia and cultural mores that keep Ennis in particular "in the closet" and suffering.

It is in the inverting of this point-of-view that BBM subverts old stereotypes. I think many straight people after seeing this film will wonder why they couldn't be allowed to live together on Jack's ranch, without fear for their lives. (At least I hope so.)

[greeneyed_one]

Posted: 12/29/05 at 9:28pm

I don't think Ennis is being pitied because he is gay but rather he is being pitied because he lost his true love. Imagine if a movie with a hetero couple had the same ending (one dies, the other is left only and mourning) no one would complain that the remainging character was being pitied. I think it is a big step forward that by the end of the movie it wouldn't really matter if Ennis was in love with a man or a woman, all that matters is that he lost someone he cared about- something almost everyone in the audience can relate to on some level.
That said I felt the movie left me numb and was not as emotinoal (IMO) as it could have been. I too would have liked to see Ennis' and Jack's love more, I'm not sure how this could have been done...maybe if they sang 'I'll Cover You' (Kidding- just kidding) I also would have liked to see more of an immediate reaction from Ennis after he hears of Jack's death. I loved the way Heath reacted in the scene where he and Jack parted way after the summer. I understand the way Ennis reacted (stoicly) but I would have liked to see more emotion to get that immediate connection and saddness. (Sorry that was so long :) )

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 12/29/05 at 11:08pm

Auggie, did you happen to see the Boston Red Sox edition of Queer Eye for the Straight Guy? It was really fantastic because it involved the 5 and their Red Sox projects working with a Little League in Florida whose baseball park had been destroyed in a hurricane. At the time the Red Sox were World Series champions.

What we had was a group of kids and their parents having a great time with five openly gay guys, all of whom appeared to find Carson the funniest and most delightful. The Queers Eyes got the Sox to donate copious amounts of money so the kids could get a new stadium, uniforms etc.

You had mothers and fathers crying. You had the coach leading the kids in a rousing "Hip Hip Hooray" for the Queer Eyes when there were no Red Sox in sight. You had the biggest fear in the hearts and minds of many citizens of red states (queers mingling with kids) happening right in front of their eyes and in front of viewers at home with the end result being community building and positive role modeling.

I got a little misty eyed twice during Brokeback: when Heath was crying and telling Jack "You did this to me," and when Jack was yelling at Heath that he had no business criticizing him for his Mexican sojourns. About 90 seconds of misty eyedness.

I cried for the last 10 minutes of that Queer Eye episode, which I think really did have a chance to change some hearts and minds of people who would normally be anti-gay than Brokeback has of inspiring similar people to suddenly announce: "Why, I think I'll buy a ticket to that gay cowboy movie."

[PalJoey]

Posted: 12/29/05 at 11:18pm

That was an amazing episode.

They're apples and oranges, but it was an amazing episode.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 12/29/05 at 11:37pm

But it's funny, because as I was writing it out, I realized that I loved that episode so much that I find I really WANT TO BELIEVE that the goings on within it and during the taping really DID have the chance to open a few hearts and minds.

And since I've gotten involved in the Brokeback discussion I keep wondering why that possibility is so important to people? I mean, that's a lot of responsibility to put on any production, that besides being enjoyable, it has to contribute to cultural change.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 12/30/05 at 12:04am

Nick Clooney, the former AMC host and George Clooney's father, wrote a book called The Movies That Changed Us, in which he listed and wrote about the 20 movies that forever altered the way we look at life, the world, ourselves or simply the way we look at movies.

Will Brokeback be a movie that changed us? We never know until we've changed.

[ShbrtAlley44]

Posted: 12/30/05 at 12:09am

I think it's on its way to changing us, or at least broadening our minds a little bit. I hope so.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 12/30/05 at 12:14am

Who are the "we" and "us" that Clooney, Joey and 44 are talking about? Brokeback didn't tell me a damn thing I didn't know, so I guess, what, I'm a "them" and not an "us?"

[PalJoey]

Posted: 12/30/05 at 12:22am

Clooney's next book will be "The Movies That Changed Namo"--and the first movie will be "Fur Frenzy 4: Pushing the Limits," which changed the way Namo looks at cooking oil.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 12/30/05 at 12:24am

But you get my point, right? I just can't bear these broad brushstroke statements, "I think it's on its way to changing us, or at least broadening our minds a little bit." I mean, come ON. I keep expecting the Hillside Singers to hand me a Coke.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 12/30/05 at 12:24am

Updated On: 12/30/05 at 12:24 AM

[Auggie27]

Posted: 12/30/05 at 11:08am

Namo, I must've been home rewatching my double feature of BOYS IN THE BAND and SUNDAY BLOODY SUNDAY for the 727th time during that Queer Eye/Red Sox. But I'll watch for a repeat.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 12/30/05 at 11:14am

Seriously, it's really good. SOMEHOW, Major League Baseball was encouraged to go along with the Queer Eyes getting near world series champs. My guess is it's because Red Sox management was young and/or hip. You know the Yankees wouldn't have let the 5 anywhere near the ballpark!

[roquat]

Posted: 12/30/05 at 4:35pm

"That is a deliberate and willful mischaracterization."

Doesn't that sound like something Daffy Duck would say? Complete with pauses, misplaced emphasis, and saliva-spewing? Imagine it:

"THAT, thir...ith a DELIBERATE...and WILL-ful...MITTTHHHHHCHARACTERITHATHION!!!!!"

Updated On: 12/30/05 at 04:35 PM

[hateobnoxiousteens]

Posted: 12/30/05 at 10:32pm

Luscious, although the article was interesting, the writer needs to learn alot about queer film history. Most importantly he claims that Brokeback Mountain is the "New Queer Cinema". Well the "New Queer Cinema" began in the early 1990's by some of the filmmakers he does refer (and it's Gregg Araki not Greg Araki) to, Gus Van Sant, Gregg Araki, Todd Haynes, he ignores Tom Kalin. The term "New Queer Cinema" was coined by B. Ruby Rich in reaction to the above filmmakers all making a stir at the Sundance Film Festival. What theorists are now discussing is how the "New Queer Cinema" has influenced current queer films now believe it or not known as the "New New Queer Cinema".

[hateobnoxiousteens]

Posted: 12/30/05 at 10:45pm

"The thing that's most disappointing is that here was this movie that was to shatter stereotypes, but ended up (in my mind) reinforcing others. I'll never forget, as a child, overhearing my mom, a rather progressive woman when it comes to this subject, say that she feels bad for gay people because it seems like such a lonely life. And this movie reinforces that particular stereotype. It just seems such like such a retro vision of a gay experience. Not that it's not based in truth. But let's not kid ourselves that this film is our saviour. It's the start of a very long discussion."

Who the hell said that Brokeback Mountain was to shatter "stereotypes"? And having a "lonely life" is not a gay stereotype ive heard of. And what are gay stereotypes, if you are honest, they are accurate depicitions of a small subset of the gay population, are gay men b**ches? well honestly ive lived in chelsea for 5 years as an out and proud gay man and id say well some really are, especially in this neighborhood. Progress will only come if other depictions of the homosexual popoulation are shown in films and TV shows, the goal is not breaking so called stereotypes but to show that there are alot of other queers out there that are all different in there own way. We all have our own individual stories to tell. The journey is different for everyone.

[Luscious]

Posted: 12/30/05 at 11:08pm

In regard to the article... I think robbiej is pretty much on target when he states... "I don't think queer cinema has been redefined. I think it's straight cinema that is coming in for the revolution."

In my opinion, BROKEBACK represents the birth of a revolution in straight cinema, and the EVOLUTION of queer cinema, and maybe, just maybe, the beginning of the meeting of the twain.

Updated On: 12/31/05 at 11:08 PM