The Language Issue: A Discussion

[SorryGrateful]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 11:32am

Pardon me if I sound too much like Henry Higgins, but I really do believe that a person's language and vocabulary can and will keep him/her down in society. I apologize if this sounds racist and, hey, maybe it is, I'm certainly not beyond human prejudices, but so many of the conversations I've overheard African-Americans having on the El, in the street, in restaurants have mostly been vulgar and ignorant, at least in terms of vocabulary, syntax and general grammar.

I'm not saying that this is only an A-A thing. I went to a university in Ohio that was predominantly white and there were lots of white Southern Ohioans who said things like, "It don't bother me none." It's just that I'm now living in a place that's very racially diverse and I hear most poor language coming from African-Americans.

I am alarmed when I hear the rap songs of today and hear nothing but bad grammar and vulgarity and see that young black kids and even adults are looking up to these people as role models in both actions and speech.

I'm wondering what you all think. I believe in the power of proper language and expressing yourself in a coherent way, hopefully without using "motherf--ker" twice in every sentence that drips out of your mouth. I could very well be a snob, but I'm curious as to what you think of language and its place in society.

[Rathnait62]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 11:33am

Is this because I posted "Happy birthday, mofo" in Dame's thread?

[D2]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 11:35am

Yes, Rath. It is. Because it's all about you. All Rath, all the time.

[Rathnait62]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 11:39am

I knew it!

Anyway, the good news is, SG is posting!!!!

[SorryGrateful]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 11:40am

I love you, Rath, but no this isn't about you. Gawd!

This is just something I've been thinking about for a long time. Maybe I long for the days when people didn't use vulgarity in general public, i.e. f*ck, p*ssy, c*ck, as though it was perfectly normal and as though people around shouldn't be offended. I use those words, but not in a public situation where anyone could walk by.

I also get frustrated when I hear people using our language incorrectly. English, while not as beautiful as Spanish, Italian or French, can be used as a thing of beauty and as a thing of art and I hate hearing people use it as though tenses, plurals and other things that should be basic skills don't matter.

Updated On: 7/6/07 at 11:40 AM

[iHeartMyGeek]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 11:41am

SG, as much as this is an interesting and valid discussion, you know you're going to get a lot of complaints on this board, right?

[DayDreamer]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 11:47am

I understand what you are saying, but on the same token, that's how languages evolve. Language is not static... I bet that even "proper" white NE language of the latter 20th century/early 21st would sound terrible to an 19th century socialite.

[Chita1933]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 11:50am

well sg you're right, it isn't a black or white thing. it's social. it's where you grew up and who you grew up with. there are racial elements ie: blacks not wanting to sound "white," but mostly it's a social issue. i'm sure in the privacy of their estates many a millionaire can be heard using profanity.

eta: the other day i was at the doctor and in the waiting room a mother and daughter were having a conversation and the daughter was pretty foul mouthed and i thought how embarrassed the mother must be. it turns out , a bit further into the conversation the apple hadn't fallen far from the tree.

angel: "i hate mr. whipple"
anna: "oh god! me too!"
anna: "i hate growing older"
angel: "boy! am i with you."



Angel: "...and this won't stop me. I won't let it. 'cause we ain't selling. Just forget it. The good things always come to she who waits..."

Anna: "ah, that's her who waits."

Updated On: 7/6/07 at 11:50 AM

[SorryGrateful]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 12:01pm

chita-- I'm not objecting to profanity per se. Lord knows I curse up an offensive storm when I'm with my friends, but only when I'm in private. I don't think motherf*cker should be a regular adjective in language anymore.

DayDreamer-- I agree with you that languages evolve and that they should. But there are certain rules that are always the same in terms of proper grammar no matter what era we're in. I'm a poet and a writer of fiction and I'm all for creating new ways of using language and sculpting it to fit my needs. But I have never believed in total anarchy, in politics or in language. I believe that we do need to have rules in order to flourish. And I think the basic backbone of language is a set of rules and that they should be followed. If they aren't followed, I think that people will be left out of many things.

If I didn't speak or write properly at my job, I certainly wouldn't be here very long. If I used nothing but profanity and "ain'ts" with my friends, I wouldn't have friends for much longer. I personally look down on people who don't use words properly, no matter what circumstances have caused them to be ignorant (perhaps not stupid). Language is a barrier between people, even when we are all supposedly speaking the same one.

[WickedGeek28]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 12:04pm

I know how you feel, sorrygrateful.

I'm studying to be an English teacher and bad grammar KILLS me.

[jasonf]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 12:06pm

SorryGrateful - maybe it's because I'm an English teacher and I see the direct effect the language you're talking about has on kids, but I totally agree with you. The use of poor grammar is EVERYWHERE -- not just in speech and on the internet, but I see it on signs, notices, on TV -- everywhere! Yes, language can evolve, but note the lack of the letter "d" at the start of that word. Unfortunately, I think it's going to get worse before it gets better.

[Chita1933]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 12:10pm

sg i'm not sure this is right but it seems to me that what you are talking about is a symptom not the problem.

[SorryGrateful]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 12:13pm

I suppose I'm just preaching to the choir here on BWW. I was also an English major (and am one in my heart still) and my heart hurts when I see and hear stupidity in words.

Is the problem poor education in certain areas? jason, you will probably have a view on that. What is causing mass ignorance? Do people just not care? But I think the people in power will care when someone has to go out into the work force. I'm not talking McDonald's, but working in an office setting. I worry that if African-Americans can't step up their language game, they are always going to be the oppressed people. I don't think anyone wants to hear a leader sounding like 50 Cent or some dumb hick from Southern Ohio, for example, and no one is certainly going to elect or have any respect for one.

Stop me if I'm wrong or if I'm babbling.

etf: bad grammar

Updated On: 7/6/07 at 12:13 PM

[Becky2]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 12:14pm

I'm so sick of this Ebonics/Rap music language thing. I work in Flint, MI, and so many people there talk like this. I can't understand a thing they're saying. I even took an acting class there where we spend half the semester on diction. A lot of the people in that class still couldn't understand the concept of Standard American English.

[SorryGrateful]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 12:21pm

Chita-- Then what do you think IS the problem? (I'm not calling you out, only genuinely curious about your opinion.)

[Chita1933]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 12:24pm

I have no idea. The reason I said it was a symptom is because no one chooses to be unappealing or marginalized, and that is a possible effect of the problem we are trying to get at.
---------------------------------------

aks me something else.

Updated On: 7/6/07 at 12:24 PM

[Bluemoon]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 12:24pm

I'm not sure it IS an education gap. I have a friend with a college degree - a professional - who routinely says, "Her and me don't know what we're doing this weekend." I wince every time I hear that. It seems to be the lingo she grew up with and I'm sure it disappears at, say, a work situation.

I also wince at the permutations in written English. I scream at the screen everytime I see "probably" written as "prolly". There are three syllables there, folks. Three. Don't get lazy.

Good topic, SG.
Updated On: 7/6/07 at 12:24 PM

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 12:56pm

"I can't understand a thing they're saying."

Becky, darling, with all due respect, that's the whole point. Dontchya think?

[mejusthavingfun]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 1:14pm

I think it is certainly an education gap. I am a Latino and grew up in a VERY white part of the country.

I received a typical white public education, and I "sound like a white guy" when I talk, and I am able to speak publically well. Both of my parents spoke broken English to me, so I certainly did not get it from them.

One of my closest friends grew up in the LES projects and he speaks perfect "white" English, meanwhile his sister is as ghetto as ghetto gets. You would not believe they were reared in the same household. One where no English was spoken at all. He was fortunate enough to be placed in a good school, she was a teenage pregnancy.

I think speech like appearance is one of the first things that people notice about you. So often it is the first and ONLY thing people notice about the poor and the minorities in this country. This isn't just true here; it's true in other countries.

Proper grammar and speech is an institution that must be learned. It is not something we are born with or always use. Some people get locked out of this, often by choice, but more likely by circumstance. Most schools are lucky if they can get their students literate.

There are major inequities in this country when it comes to education. If you don't believe spend an afternoon in a "black” or Latino school. You will see. There is a cycle to keep minorities where they are. This is often true for poor white people in the mid-west. There are rich schools and poor schools. Look at the dropout and pregnancy rates. Do you think those kids use proper speech? I doubt it.

I think language is for communication, judging a person by it is wrong.
Updated On: 7/6/07 at 01:14 PM

[RobbO]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 1:16pm

it doesn't help that serious newscasters now use slang and other colloquialisms to appeal to a younger/hipper (?) audience.

do you know where all of this started? dressing down at the theatre. it shows a lack of respect and class. and language was not far behind.

[erikaamato]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 1:20pm

I read a sci-fi story (I wish I could recall the name, but I can't), where a 20th century astronaut crash-landed on a planet and although the inhabitants appeared to be human, he couldn't understand anything anyone was saying, and couldn't place what language it could possibly be, etc. They would speak like this, "Ca...eefoona...wedahwastah." Well, after a while it became clear he was on the North American continent, about 1000 years in the future, and the language had devolved to where it was practically unrecognizable. The above would be translated as, "Come...eat some food now...we don't want you to starve!"

As I listen to some of the language I hear on the streets of LA, I think this future is a forseeable reality in the next 100 years, let alone 1,000.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 1:23pm

But the only alternative to language changing (which is always looked down upon by people who study it) is for it to be like Latin. Dead. Just sitting there.

[madbrian]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 1:27pm

I had the benefit of a good education, and I strive for proper grammar in both written and oral communcation. I do tend to judge people by their speech, and I have to make an effort to distinguish education from intelligence. Even though I've never been a teacher, I need to resist the urge to correct people when they speak improperly.

In my opinion, even 'good' schools in 'good' neighborhoods are neglecting this part of education. Out here in the suburbs of northern NJ, I cringe when I hear the way some people speak.

[erikaamato]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 1:44pm

I agree, Namo. My point was simply that language seems to be changing at a much faster rate than in the past - perhaps due in large part to the internet.

Although it may be difficult, we can still fairly readily understand Chaucer, written almost 700 years ago. And I would bet that a contemporary of Chaucer's time would be able to understand Hemingway just fine. But would an American from 1900 be able to understand the lingo regularly seen in IM's (and message boards, and blogs) today?

The language is morphing at lightspeed.
Updated On: 7/6/07 at 01:44 PM

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 1:54pm

You're right. Like everything else. And with globalization comes a disheartening eradication of charming regionalisms.