The Late Joan Rivers: 'Does this urn make my ash look fat?'- Page 6

[Jane2]

Posted: 8/29/14 at 10:41pm

I never heard a celeb call her out for her meanness. If they did, it also could be for show. I don't think anyone really cares about other celebs. But you know what, I don't think Joan gives a flying fcuk about any of the people she makes fun of. Especially on her show Fashion Police. As I said, it's a show, and when she gets off the stage, she goes about her life, and those celebs aren't on her mind.

She's in the business we call show, (wink) and she's a good businesswoman.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 8/29/14 at 11:38pm

Joan's "mean-spiritedness" operates on a meta level that eludes some people and delights others. This is how she can be so offensive onstage or on camera...but then you hear from other professionals nothing but how warm and gracious and inspiring she is, how she welcomes them into her home and writes personal thank-you notes and shows up when they lose parents or spouses--especially when she hears someone has lost a spouse or a partner. And it's why she was so inspiring to the generation of gay men who are gone now, because she stepped into God's Love We Deliver not only with an infusion of cash, not only with publicity for the organization in those awful early days when the rest of the media recoiled from mentions of HIV and AIDS, but also with affection for the people with AIDS themselves, at whose homes she would show up with food. And, yes, with hugs.

But then there are some people who are smart enough to get exactly what she's doing--and, yet, that meta level is exactly what infuriates them and fills them with revulsion. These people are otherwise hyper-intelligent people like my good friends commenting in this thread, and they are compelled to say the most awful things about her and impute the most awful motives to her.

Meanwhile, the rest of us find ourselves looking at their posts, quizzically, wondering if all these snide and angry posts are some kind of put-on. We end up thinking "If you're so smart, why don't you get how funny she is?"

But Joan is smarter than any of us. Joan knows that without reactions like those of my friends in this thread, the rest of us would only like her so-so. In order to get the reactions she wants her comedy to have, there have to be some people out there to say, "Wait a minute--that's not funny. That's offensive. That's hateful."

Show of hands: Who here thinks that Joan really hates Anne Frank and Helen Keller and really thinks the president is gay and the first lady is a tranny?

And who here thinks: Of course she doesn't. That's what's so funny. She makes me laugh--in spite of myself. She gives me permission to be bad, allows me to forgive myself for my negative and judgmental thoughts, because I would never think anything as bad as what Joan says. Or, if I did, I would never say it out loud.

Joan knows that without strong negative reactions, the positive reactions she gets would be lukewarm.

So, on behalf of Joan, I would like to say thank you to my friends in this thread. You are, in the end, her greatest fans.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 8/30/14 at 12:40am

I'm a fan of hers in The Muppets Take Manhattan and Spaceballls, for sure. Updated On: 8/30/14 at 12:40 AM

[nasty_khakis]

Posted: 8/30/14 at 1:06am

ANY clips of her acting defensive are from things like Costco not stocking her book (while selling condoms and "50 Shades of Grey"). If any celeb is hurt, her reaction is "eff em if they can't take a joke!" She flat out knows anyone in the business should have a thick skin and not let a joke affect them or how they feel. She can call Anne Hathaway any number of things knowing full well Anne is beautiful, talented, and yes, rich. It goes back to the Liz Taylor "she doesn't hurt me where I live" thing. If, say, Angelina Jolie has nothing better to worry about than a comedian on basic cable making jokes about her lips, then they have the problem, not Joan.

And CALM DOWN over the jokes about the first couple. You sincerely think she's the ONLY comedian to ever make a joke about a politician??? I've never once heard a joke about how Bush must be simple or how Bill Clinton likes women or how Hillary is butch. You're absolutely right, Joan must be a terrible bigot for joking that the first lady must be a man because she's so fit. Joan of COURSE does not actually think these things and is exaggerating and going to extremes to get a reaction.

Why aren't you ranting about all the Robin Williams tributes? He put on fake "offensive" accents He pretended to be people of different races! He made fun of people with addictions! He made fun of other celebrities! The nerve and outrage! Seriously, you seem to be harping on Joan simply because you don't get what she does.

You're entitled to not watch her shows, buy her books, see her live, or even once even smile at a joke, but to think someone deserves to die for having a darker sense of humor is just vile.

Thank you Pal Joey for putting into words how I feel about Joan and her style and tone. My hand is raised at the latter.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 8/30/14 at 1:06am

EVERYBODY dies, khaki, and nobody anywhere said she "deserves" it. Isn't it AMAZING how thin skinned people are when they think others need thicker skin? You don't think it's a little weird she goes right to calling the first couple some form of queer or another?

Anyway, back to PJ's post. I don't want to use the word "meta" because then it'll just be copycatting but why is there always this sort of scaffolding around people like Joan that people use when discussing her so that no matter what somebody's response to her is, it's spun that the response is exactly what she wants and needs and therefore she "wins" like it's some sort of contest?

What is wrong with putting out a cultural critique of her? I will grant you that that DOES say she's important enough a phenomenon to warrant using some brain power to analyze, but then again I am sure somebody somewhere has done a thesis on the Kardashians.

I feel that there are legitimate things that can be said about Joan's act, what she puts out there, that can be looked at on their own without needing to factor in her graciousness to people she meets and charitable giving offstage. I am utterly disappointed by her anti-feminist sensibility, the fact that so much of what she does is knocking down other women. I am also flabbergasted that when somebody like Jennifer Lawrence says what Joan does on Fashion Police is mean, Joan's response is that it's NOT mean and what does Jennifer Lawrence care, she makes X dollars per picture? Well, way to tell somebody that they way you've made them feel isn't valid, Joan. "I care." "You DON'T care."

She gives me permission to be bad,

Yes. Exactly. As does (to a much worse and even more base degree) the fundamentally odious Lisa Lumpagnelli (another tough talking chick who crumbles in a heap of tears the very second somebody tells her she's cruel). This ENABLING of people to give in to their worse natures is at the very center of my critique of Joan and why I say she could only have reached her career zenith and depths of her meanness in the Ronald Reagan years. Like Reagan, Joan gives people permission to give into their lesser angels and frankly, I think there's already more than enough impulse for people to do that on their own. And THAT'S what I am referring to as the moral/ethical center.

This is not to say when she is not being mean and cruel and vituperative and vengeful she can't be hilarious. And I'm really glad she gave money to God's Love We Deliver. I GUESS it's worth the trade-off so she feels totally free to say that Glee sucks because in her day "homos were crying in their lockers." Well, you know, whatever. Luckily for a lot of young queer kids of every stripe, Joan's day is receding in the mist of history and they're able to get through part of their days without being abused by people who would shove them in lockers.

Updated On: 8/30/14 at 01:06 AM

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 8/30/14 at 1:44am

On EW Radio they played a clip from that doc about her that everybody told me would make me love her but didn't where she talks about how she did a show in the Bronx at 4:30 in the afternoon. And the people on the radio talked about how it's so sad. And I just didn't feel that bad for her in the movie, because I guess I just don't buy what she's selling.

Also, I wanted to see if I could find anything about the Elizabeth Taylor/Joan Rivers stuff and the first link I found was Joan saying, tweeting her death, "Sad to hear of Elizabeth Taylor's death. She was the 1st major celebrity to join me in the fight against AIDS when it wasn't a popular cause." And if I hadn't just recently read what Namo said about her and Shirley MacLaine I probably wouldn't have thought anything of it. But it just seemed like an unnecessarily pointed way to speak of her, but you know, what do I know? Apparently I wasn't raised right.

It also quotes one of her old jokes as " "Elizabeth Taylor is so fat she puts mayonnaise on aspirin!" I totally get her comedy now. Thanks, all!

Updated On: 8/30/14 at 01:44 AM

[Luscious]

Posted: 8/30/14 at 10:09am

Is separating the person from their schtick really that difficult? If you don't like her schtick, fine. But there's a real 81 year old woman lying in a hospital bed in a medically induced coma fighting for her life. She has a daughter, a grandson, friends, and millions of fans who love and respect her. She's worked her ass off for the last six decades, building a highly successful career, and managing to stay relevant far past her expected expiration date. And I've never heard her, in or out of character, joke about or wish ill toward anyone who's lying on their potential death bed. Karma, indeed.

Updated On: 8/30/14 at 10:09 AM

[SNAFU]

Posted: 8/30/14 at 10:33am

I am not sure I have read anywhere on this thread that someone wished her ill.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 8/30/14 at 11:21am

While I think it's indecorous to argue about which celebrity was the first to fundraise for HIV and AIDS, Joan is not incorrect about the benefits for AIDS Project Los Angeles in the the awful, shell-shocked years of 1984 and 1985.

But first let it be said that no single person had a greater positive impact on the international recognition of the pandemic than did Elizabeth Taylor: no scientist, no politician and no other performer.

That said, Elizabeth's journey with confronting AIDS publicly began in January 1985, when APLA asked her to chair their first big Hollywood fundraise: a dinner called "Commitment to Life" to take place that September 1985. Up until that point, the Hollywood film and television communities were so petrified that very few people mentioned what was going on. It was different in San Francisco and New York, where groups like the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence and loudmouths like Larry Kramer had made speaking out and raising money for treatment much more public.

In that atmosphere of industry-enforced silence in Los Angeles, Joan chaired the first benefit for APLA in March 1984, 18 months before the gala Elizabeth chaired in September 1985, and Joan's event raised a very-much-needed $45,000 for APLA.

But the real pioneers in the entertainment industry (outside of New York, of course, where Broadway stepped up IMMEDIATELY) were Shirley MacLaine and Debbie Reynolds, with events in San Francisco in 1982 and 1983.

Shirley has often said that she first became aware of AIDS in 1982, when she was working on songs for her act with lyricist Christopher Adler (the son of Pajama Game composer Richard Adler): "I used to bounce Christopher on my knee when he was a kid. He started to cough, and get strangely sick. He stayed with me for a long time out here while we wrote these lyrics together. Then he went to the hospital and neither of us knew what was wrong. Couldn't figure it out. Nobody knew what it was! And then within a year he was dead."

Shirley hosted a dog event with the Sisters in the summer of 1982 to benefit the Kaposi's Sarcoma Foundation. Then she had a conversation with Debbie Reynolds, who was freaked out because several of the male dancers in her Las Vegas show were ill. Several dancers Shirley knew had also gotten sick, and others people, not just dancers, all gay men.

Debbie put together a larger-scale benefit called "An Evening with Debbie Reynolds and Friends" in early 1983. Then Shirley and Debbie did another benefit, together, in June 1983.

My friend Reed Jones, who originated the role of Skimbleshanks in the Broadway production of Cats before he died, had danced in both Debbie's and Shirley's shows--as well as Sandy Duncan's--before coming to Broadway in Sandy's Peter Pan. He knew the boys who died, although he did not yet know that he too was HIV-positive. His gratitude toward the generosity of Debbie and Shirley was enormous.

But let's get back to Los Angeles in March 1984, where speaking of AIDS was strictly verboten. Joan worked very hard getting industry people to participate in that benefit, and she got a lot of no's. A year later, Elizabeth asked those same people, and the answer was yes. Elizabeth was a bigger star, and let's face it, a year later those people were losing friends themselves at a rapid rate--and some of them were sick and dying themselves.

In January 1985, the board of AIDS Project Los Angeles asked Elizabeth to be the chair of the September fundraiser. Shortly after that, Elizabeth's daughter-in-law Aileen Getty told her that she had contracted AIDS through a transfusion. Years later, she admitted that she had contacted the virus in an extramarital affair, and her marriage to Elizabeth's son disintegrated. But Elizabeth never abandoned her.

Back to 1985, an annus horribilis for a lot of us. Elizabeth always spoke about 1985 as being the year of her horrific realization that she "had to do something about AIDS because no one was doing anything about it." As Elizabeth was working on the Commitment for Life dinner, involving every name in Hollywood because no one could say no to her--and all of them had already lost friends.

Rock Hudson, an old friend of Elizabeth and Shirley and Debbie in bought $10,000 worth of tickets to the dinner. He was already in the an advanced state of the disease, although he had not yet had it diagnosed. But they all knew something was wrong and they had all seen friends deteriorate and die quickly. Nevertheless, Rock vowed to Elizabeth he would be there.

On June 5th, Rock was diagnosed, but he told no one. On July 16th, he appeared at a press conference with Doris Day to promote her TV show about rescuing animals. His appearance and incoherence was shocking to the world--but not to those of us who were already attending memorial services regularly.

On July 21st, he collapsed in his room in Paris, where had gone for treatments because there was nowhere to go in the United States. His spokesman said Rock was being treated for "liver cancer," and on July 25th, the spokesman said it was AIDS. Rock later said he contracted it from a blood transfusion during a heart-bypass operation.

The Commitment for Life dinner happened on September 19th, and it raised $1.3 million. Over 2,500 people attended but Rock wasn't there. Two weeks later, he was dead.

But the event was a landmark event that signaled the real beginning of the worldwide fight against the HIV pandemic and the founding of AMFAR and other organizations.

So there needn't be Team Joan or Team Liz, but if there must be teams, put me on Team Shirley and Debbie.

Updated On: 9/10/14 at 11:21 AM

[Jane2]

Posted: 8/30/14 at 11:31am

All I'm thinking at this point is that this thread is so m heavy with philosophy and dissection it's ridiculous.

Please, Joan rivers is a comic. If you don't like the humor, fine. If you do, fine. We wish her well
Whew

Updated On: 8/30/14 at 11:31 AM

[PalJoey]

Posted: 8/30/14 at 11:38am

I guess what I mean to say is that what Debbie and Shirley and Joan (and everyone in the cabaret and Broadway worlds) did in the years before Commitment to Life had impact on the entertainment community and the gay community, but what Elizabeth did in 1985--fueled by the shock of Rock Hudson's appearance and death--was to bring the issue of HIV and AIDS to the world.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 8/30/14 at 11:50am

"All I'm thinking at this point is that this thread is so m heavy with philosophy and dissection it's ridiculous.

Please, Joan rivers is a comic."

Which I pointed out earlier in the thread was a likely response to anybody who takes comedy seriously enough that they think a lot about it and are left uncomfortable after analyzing it.

Luscious, I honestly hand to god do not understand the equation of telling somebody not to say mean things about Joan Rivers because she's human and has relatives. I mean, honestly, the jokes in this thread are treating Joan as she treated others.

The three women held captive in Cleveland (who are not celebrities and had no choice about being thrust in the public eye after they were kidnapped and raped and held for years against their will) also have families and people who care about them, along with dead babies. So, really.

Updated On: 8/30/14 at 11:50 AM

[PalJoey]

Posted: 8/30/14 at 12:22pm

And Elizabeth, before 1985, was entrenched in the Hollywood closet: Under no circumstances were you ever, ever to speak of an actor's homosexuality, even in gossip.

Elizabeth had not only participated in keeping Rock Hudson's closet, she also was Malcom Forbes's beard.

1985 changed all that.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 8/30/14 at 12:29pm

The rules became clear over time. If Liz dated them, they were gay. If she married them, they were not.

Signorelli and OutWeek had a lot to do with the dismantling of the celebrity closet but that didn't come until a couple years later.

[Luscious]

Posted: 8/30/14 at 1:20pm

PalJoey... Your knowledgeable and detailed recollections never cease to amaze me. You're a wealth of information. You should write a book.

Namo... Joan is a professional comedian who has created an onstage persona. Some like her schtick. Some don't. But the fact remains that she has millions of fans, is respected by her peers, is in demand, and gets paid very well for what she does. Your thread title alone suggests that you feel that she got what she deserved and had coming to her. I know you enjoy being caustic and facetious, but I honestly don't believe you're that mean-spirited.

Updated On: 8/30/14 at 01:20 PM

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 8/30/14 at 2:45pm

I understand that everyone (or maybe most everyone) has friends and family that love them, but i'm not gonna pretend that it's a tragedy that an 81 year old is sliding towards death. It's sad for her family, sure, and clearly for her unhinged fans, but at its core, there is nothing tragic about this.

PJ, I'm not trying to make it a pissing contest about who went public with fighting AIDS first. I'm just pointing out that for as much of an asshole as Joan was to Elizabeth Taylor in life, that tweet after her death is pretty asshole-y, too.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 8/30/14 at 3:09pm

At what point are people connected to the things their personae say? I honestly do not understand the disconnect.

Was Tracey Morgan's persona responsible for talking about stabbing a hypothetical gay child in the neck and therefore not something that can be commented upon?

I am genuinely curious about where the demarcation is.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 8/30/14 at 3:16pm

We just need to be clear that Joan was our friend before Elizabeth and Shirley/Debbie were our friends before (or simultaneous to) Joan, because that had been unclear earlier in this thread. But they were all our friends.

Elizabeth went on to become the greatest friend the HIV community ever had, but she was definitely not the first. And I don't really think there's anything insulting about Joan's Tweet. Self-aggrandizing, perhaps, but no more so than pretty much every other celebrity. Certainly nothing to occasion what seems to be almost a personal vendetta in this thread.

(And by the way, your mayonnaise line made me laugh out loud. Did you make that up in the vein of a Joan line or is it actually something she said?)

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 8/30/14 at 3:29pm

It's not my mayonnaise line. It was credited to Joan Rivers. If you like fat people are gross slobs humor, it's gold, I guess.

I don't say this unkindly, but it's going to be hard to forget this thread the next time you admonish someone on this board for being cruel or unkind to someone else, especially if it's under the umbrella of "just joking."

[PalJoey]

Posted: 8/30/14 at 3:35pm

The only objection I can remember like that is when I objected to people saying that Arthur Laurents cast pretty boys in his Broadway shows so that they would sleep with him in his nineties.

I objected because (a) it wasn't true and (b) there were so many worse things you could say about him that WERE true.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 8/30/14 at 3:39pm

Noted. Though I wasn't strictly speaking about speaking ill of celebrities.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 8/30/14 at 3:50pm

I'm going to keep asking until somebody explains it to me. Is a person immune from criticism, comment and analysis when the awful things they say are said by their personae? Are some personae given free passes and some not?

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 8/30/14 at 3:53pm

Eminemen always was. He didn't really "hate fag or lez." He just whined to a beat about it.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 8/30/14 at 3:57pm

But nobody ever said it was cruel or mean or insensitive to talk about the hateful things he said.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 8/30/14 at 4:07pm

Well, Melissa Ethridge did say, "Look, Eminem is not out chopping off any gay men's heads."

But you bringing up Tracy Morgan is a good analogy, I think, and just adds more confusion as to what is allowed to be dismissed as "just a comedian talking" and what is not.