07-08 Recouping

[BroadwayBoy2]

Posted: 12/8/08 at 10:54am

What lost money or recouped from the 2007-2007 season?

[pli1018]

Posted: 12/8/08 at 11:10am

Cry-Baby pretty much lost it's entire investment I believe.
Boeing-Boeing recouped.

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 12/8/08 at 5:36pm

Here is the info I posted in June...updated as needed...


Variety published their annual statistics on the Broadway season 2007/08 that wrapped up May 25th.

First the good news:

-5 shows that opened this season have paid off and are classified as hits:

AUGUST: OSAGE COUNTY
A BRONX TALE
CAT ON A HOT TIN ROOF
CYRANO DE BERGERAC
MACBETH

-Joining the above are the following holdovers from last season which have moved into the "hit" category:

FROST/NIXON
MARY POPPINS
SPRING AWAKENING
(The revival of LES MISERABLES was technically an extension of the “Marius” tour that paid off in 1989)

-The following shows are not yet determined:

BOEING-BOEING (still running)
A CATERED AFFAIR (Closed..FLOP)
THE COUNTRY GIRL (closed... FLOP)
CRY BABY (closed...FLOP)
GREASE (still running)
GYPSY (still running)
IN THE HEIGHTS (still running)
THE LITTLE MERMAID (still running)
NOVEMBER (closed... FLOP)
PASSING STRANGE (closed...FLOP)
THE 39 STEPS (commercial transfer) (still running)
THURGOOD (clsoed...FLOP)
XANADU (closed...FLOP)
YOUNG FRANKENSTEIN (closing soon...BIG FLOP)
- 2 holdovers from last year that are still undecided:
CURTAINS (closed...FLOP)
LEGALLY BLONDE (closed...FLOP)

-The next group of shows are classed as nonprofit/miscellaneous and do not get classified:

COME BACK, LITTLE SHEBA
CYMBELINE
LES LIAISONS DANGEREUSES
MAURITIUS
OLD ACQUAINTANCE
PYGMALION
THE RITZ
SOUTH PACIFIC
SUNDAY IN THE PARK WITH GEORGE
THE 39 STEPS (Roundabout engagement)
TOP GIRLS


-And finally the FLOPS....

DR. SEUSS' HOW THE GRINCH STOLE CHRISTMAS (2007/08 remount was separately capitalized from the production that ran on 2006/07)
THE FARNSWORTH INVENTION
GLORY DAYS
THE HOMECOMING
IS HE DEAD?
ROCK 'N' ROLL
THE SEAFARER

- and these holdovers from last season that closed in the red:

COMPANY
DEUCE
GREY GARDENS
INHERIT THE WIND
RADIO GOLF
TALK RADIO
THE YEAR OF MAGICAL THINKING
TARZAN

[CSonBroadway]

Posted: 12/8/08 at 8:30pm

um you think cat on a hot tin roof is a hit?? it was a BIG flop compared to legally blonde and spring awakening. legally blonde ran for a year and a half. spring awakening: about 2 years. cat on a hot tin roof was open for what, 2 months?

[Smaxie]

Posted: 12/8/08 at 8:33pm

Cat, which was a limited engagement, made back its investment, which designates it as a hit. Length of the run has nothing to do with it.

[WishingOnlyWounds2]

Posted: 12/8/08 at 9:28pm

XANADU (closed...FLOP)
YOUNG FRANKENSTEIN (closing soon...BIG FLOP)
CURTAINS (closed...FLOP)
LEGALLY BLONDE (closed...FLOP)

All those ran over a year, not flops at all.

[James885]

Posted: 12/8/08 at 9:31pm

All those ran over a year, not flops at all.

It doesn't matter how long they ran, none of them recouped their investment. Therefore, they are flops.

[WishingOnlyWounds2]

Posted: 12/8/08 at 10:14pm

XANADU did when Whoopi was there.

[CSonBroadway]

Posted: 12/8/08 at 10:35pm

well usually people refer to shows that close soon after they open or don't last long as flops

[commasplice]

Posted: 12/8/08 at 10:49pm

"well usually people refer to shows that close soon after they open or don't last long as flops"

True, in that it's kind of hard to earn back a multimillion dollar investment if your show opens and closes within the span of a few weeks. But a short run doesn't automatically mean a show is a flop, just like a show that has a long run isn't automatically a hit; no matter the length of the run, if the show doesn't make back its money, it's a flop.

Wishing -- Xanadu might have made more money while Whoopi was there, but the show didn't recoup its investment.
Updated On: 12/8/08 at 10:49 PM

[scaryclowns223]

Posted: 12/8/08 at 10:50pm

CSonBroadway, you're out of your league here.

The accepted definition of "hit" is "a show that recoups its entire initial investment (ie. makes a profit)." The definition of "flop" is "a show that, no matter how long it runs or the critical recpetion it received, fails to make back its initial investment."

Whatever your definition of flop is, it doesn't apply here.

[sking]

Posted: 12/8/08 at 11:03pm

How do we know that a show recouped...producer announcement?

[James885]

Posted: 12/8/08 at 11:06pm

Yeah, usually the producers will announce when a show recoups. However, Disney usually doesn't make an announcement since they capitalize their productions themselves. Although they did announce when Mary Poppins recouped, so maybe they're changing their ways.

Updated On: 12/8/08 at 11:06 PM

[adamgreer]

Posted: 12/8/08 at 11:33pm

Boeing Boeing has recouped. It was announced they did when they officially announced the closing. It should be moved into the "hit" category.

[CurtainPullDowner]

Posted: 12/8/08 at 11:47pm

flop v. flopped,flop'ping 1. move, drop, or flop about clumsily
2. fail --n, a flopping

Webster says nothing about making Money.
But I guess VARIETY is our greater source.

[fanadu1996]

Posted: 12/9/08 at 12:17am

you're using the term "flop" incorrectly.
it does have to do with length of run, reviews, etc.
just bc they did not make their money on Broadway, does not classify as a flop.
alot of these shows will make money on the tours, foreign rights, etc
and if you are going to use the word flop, be more specific-- commercial or financial.

[sking]

Posted: 12/9/08 at 12:40am

I would say for these purposes its when they make back the initial investment, assuming 20 mil and about 750k per week costs itll take Billy a year (bit less) to recoup even sold out (Itll do it)...yikes. How can they even be thinking about 40 mil for Spiderman...recoup time of, forever??? Time to think small for awhile Broadway.

[Yero my Hero]

Posted: 12/9/08 at 1:18am

Perfect timing: http://www.playbill.com/news/article/124064.html

http://www.playbill.com/news/article/124057.html

Two more shows we can move to the HIT category.

To clarify, it doesn't matter whether a show recoups on Broadway or later on tour. If a tour helps to recoup the original investment, the original production is considered a hit, even if it is five years after the original run (entirely possible, depending on the rights the producers purchased).

and if you are going to use the word flop, be more specific-- commercial or financial.

Commercial and financial mean the same thing. I think you mean critical or financial. However, when discussing Broadway shows as hits or flops, critical reaction has nothing to do with it. A show can be a financial or critical success, but there is no such thing (for our purposes) as a critical hit or flop.

Updated On: 12/9/08 at 01:18 AM

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 12/9/08 at 1:19am

The terms "HIT" and "FLP" were coined by Variety many years ago.

A HIT is a show that makes a profit.

A FLOP is a show that ends its run in the red.

Here in a very simplified form is how it works:

To get a show to opening night costs a lot of money. A big musical can cost $15 million or more.

Add to this the weekly operating cost (or "nut" to use the jargon.) This is the weekly cost of cast, crew and staff salaries, advertising, theatre rental, royalties etc. Each week a show has to bring in more than this nut.

Let's say a new musical comes in and costs $12 million to open with a weekly nut of $650,000. At capacity the show can bring in $1.3 million. Let's assume this show doesn't sell out but does generally excellent business for a while earning an operating profit of $250,000 per week. That's about $1 million a month, so the show should pay off in 12 months. However starting in the 8th month receipts begin to fall off, and for the next while it is barely making its nut. Then comes the winter and the show falls below break-even for 3 consecutive weeks. The theatre owners can serve notice that they wish to start looking for a new tenant and the show posts a closing notice for 6 weeks hence. The sudden closing spurs interest and the show does better than average for the final weeks of the run and closes after 15 months after a run of 520 performances. With the weeks it lost money and the weeks it broke even, our show only managed to return $8 million of $12 million it cost to open. Even though it ran more than a year and had some very strong weeks in the first 6 months, it is still considered a flop.

Now the show may be considered an artistic success, and certainly to run more than 500 performances it is obviously an audience success, but in financial terms it is still a flop!

The term seems to offend people needlessly because they feel it is an attack on one of their favourite shows. It isn't. It's just a category.

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 12/9/08 at 1:22am

CSonBroadway asks "um you think cat on a hot tin roof is a hit?? "

It's NOT what I think or any other critic thinks. It's just whether the show made money. The source for this is Variety's annual tabulation of the season's financial hits and flops.

[dramamama611]

Posted: 12/9/08 at 1:38am

Whether a show is a hit or flop is NOT a matter of opinion, but one of fact. The only way something can be a FACT is to prove it. You can prove financials: Re-paid it's investors or did not....simple as that.

Question: the original producers of a show are NOT always the producers of ANY of the tours that might come after the original....additionally, mounting a tour would require ADDITIONAL money. So how how the success of future/tour productions change whether a B'way production is a hit or flop? Do the original investors continue to get a cut just because they lost money on the original? (This would seem to make revivals AND tours less than attractive to mount.) Any info would be appreciated.

BTW: according to articles from BWW -- Chekov's The Seagull can now be listed as a "hit". And so can All My Sons. They have re-couped.

Updated On: 12/9/08 at 01:38 AM

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 12/9/08 at 1:54am

Sometimes they get some form of profit participation or if the tour is a replica of what was seen on Braodway it is usually lisenced from the Broadway producers. That is why some later non-equity tours are careful not to replicate the Broadway staging.

[Yero my Hero]

Posted: 12/9/08 at 8:41am

So how how the success of future/tour productions change whether a B'way production is a hit or flop? Do the original investors continue to get a cut just because they lost money on the original?

There is an option, when purchasing rights to put on the original production, to get a cut of the royalties for any production for some amount of time after the original (usually ten years). That means that, even if the producers have no involvement whatsoever, they will earn an income from tours, regional, and amateur productions during that time. It might only be within the country or it might be global, I'm not sure.

The reasoning behind this arrangement (which needs to be negotiated with the author/estate/copyright holder) is that the producer was the first one to take a chance on the piece. Therefore, all those regional productions would not be happening were it not for him.

The producers of DIRTY ROTTEN SCOUNDRELS bought this option. They are now close to recouping the original Broadway show because of income from productions they have nothing to do with.

[dramamama611]

Posted: 12/9/08 at 9:08am

Thank you both for the info! Greatly appreciated.

[philly03]

Posted: 12/9/08 at 4:55pm

Yes Wishing.. & CSonBroadway, the time has little to do with it.

Jekyll & HYDE: The Musical ran for nearly four years, with a captilazation of an estimated $7 million, and made back a little more than $5 million. Yes it was technically an "audience" hit, and now a regional theatre almost necessity, but it did indeed flop.

Luckily, to my knowledge the producers, which was a large part of Fox Theatricals (which also did Legally Blonde) had the contract option that 'Yero my Hero' was explaing...so I wouldn't be suprised if the Blonde people eventually recoup too.