Analyzing the text of Sweeney Todd

[Musicaldudepeter]

Posted: 10/25/13 at 11:06am

How would one go about analyzing the text (libretto/lyrics) of Sondheim's Sweeney Todd...? There's lots to discuss from a music perspective (all of the influences involved in the score, etc.), but what can we discuss when it comes to the text/lyrics/libretto? I'm not saying that there is nothing to discuss, I'm having trouble analyzing the text for a project, and I'm wondering what would be a valid area to discuss within the script and lyrics?

[artscallion]

Posted: 10/25/13 at 11:12am

One area that is discussed at length on theatre forums is, "did Sweeney actually sleep with Mrs Lovett?" There are many, many things in the libretto/lyrics people use to support one view or the other. Another topic that people try to analyze is, "based on clues in the lyrics/libretto, is Tobias a child or a child-like adult?"

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 10/25/13 at 11:29am

Here I think Lehman Engel's "Words with Music" might be very helpful in framing an analysis, especially his explanation of standard elements of a libretto: plot, subplot, feeling, romance, comedy, etc.... this might inspire a review of how Sweeney incorporates all of them.

It may also be interesting to look at the text of the original play and examine the choices the librettist used in musicalizing the source material, what was left out, modified, expanded, etc., and how successful it was.

Updated On: 10/25/13 at 11:29 AM

[Musicaldudepeter]

Posted: 10/25/13 at 11:35am

Thanks, with all due respect to the first replier, the above is more what I mean...

[g.d.e.l.g.i.]

Posted: 10/25/13 at 11:44am

Although while getting in-depth about the piece as the second replier suggests, you could touch on the first replier's topic in passing, so it's not bad to know about where analysis of the work might take you.

[ggersten]

Posted: 10/25/13 at 11:55am

You should also look at Finishing the Hat to see what the author says about the lyrics and choices and also see how some of the lyrics evolved. There are further comments about Sweeney in the discussion of Merrily We Roll Along.

You should probably take one song - and then explore how it evolved (if you have that data) and then using "Words With Music" expound on how it fits in the show - plot, feelings, exposition.

[Fan123]

Posted: 10/25/13 at 9:12pm

If the style of language used is relevant, I remember reading something about the original play being partly in blank verse, which impressed Sondheim:

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=tuk9aSw7WWEC&q=blank+verse#v=snippet&q=blank%20verse&f=false

I read somewhere else that Hugh Wheeler decided to get rid of the blank verse in his version because he thought that together with the music it would make it all too over the top, but unfortunately I can't find that quote. (Anyone...?)

Anyway, Wheeler does give a brief comment on the adaptation here:

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=abqI6I0t_BAC&pg=PT5&dq=sweeney+todd+robert+mack&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PxZrUpLRG82Argev-IHIBw&ved=0CDoQ6wEwAA#v=snippet&q=%22wonderful%20story%22&f=false

[Kad]

Posted: 10/25/13 at 9:24pm

It would be helpful to know why you would like to analyze the text. Structure? Characters? Themes? Social commentary? Imagery, symbolism, rhetorical devices? Its use of melodramatic tropes?

Mrs. Lovett and Sweeney's relationship is a major discussion point. Is Mrs. Lovett a protagonist, or is she Sweeney's antagonist?

What is the text saying about gender, about society, class? Hal Prince applied a Marxist reading- is that supported?

You can't really sit down with anything and say "I'm going to analyze this!" without some idea of what you're looking for (or at).

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 10/25/13 at 9:24pm

Glad I was helpful, musicaldude, btw Engel also has a chapter on adaptation that might be informative.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 10/26/13 at 6:21pm

One area that is discussed at length on theatre forums is, "did Sweeney actually sleep with Mrs Lovett?"

What do they make of Lovett's line "me rumpled bedding legitimized"?

***

I also think Kad's suggestion is excellent: Mrs. Lovett both helps and hinders Sweeney. What is her function in the play? Updated On: 10/26/13 at 06:21 PM

[artscallion]

Posted: 10/26/13 at 6:46pm

They posit that the song is Mrs Lovett's ruminations of what it WOULD BE LIKE by the sea in her fantasy scenario. And really, that is correct. They see no reason why the rumpled bedding line should be the one line excepted from that. Meaning that her fantasy life by the sea includes sleeping with Sweeney until the day they have a seaside wedding to legitimize it.

Updated On: 10/26/13 at 06:46 PM

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 10/26/13 at 11:54pm

I always saw that line the way artscallion does and never saw any evidence that they've slept together.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 10/27/13 at 1:05pm

Thanks for the explanation; but Lovett cautions:

"We shouldn't try it,
Though, 'til it's legal for two-hoo!"

She says they can't even move to the sea until they are legally married, so the "rumpled bedding" can't be at the shore.

I imagine her sex life with Sweeney is like the rest of their interactions (except "Try Priest"): Mrs. Lovett takes the lead while Sweeney thinks about vengeance.

I think it's pretty obvious by Act II that Sweeney has moved in downstairs; otherwise he'd be sleeping in his shop.

***

BTW, I should admit that I don't think the play succeeds or fails on this point.
Updated On: 10/27/13 at 01:05 PM

[jamesdirect]

Posted: 10/27/13 at 1:25pm

Sweeney Todd is a monster, yet a leading man who we all root for and get behind. How was this achieved? Are characters heros or villains depending on who is telling the story such as the Elphaba in Wicked? As a character, it may be interesting to explore his transformation in the text of the musical.

[artscallion]

Posted: 10/27/13 at 2:15pm

"We shouldn't try it,
Though, 'til it's legal for two-hoo!"

Or, this means that, after fantasizing in the earlier parts of the song about living together by the sea, it occurs to her that they shouldn't try it without getting married first. I think the word, "though" is the important word here. This is her ploy to really give HIM a reason he should marry her, which is her ultimate goal. She's stating that the idea of rumpled bedding could be legitimized simply by marrying instead...or so some would argue.

I also don't think it's really all that important to the success or failure of the play. Though I do think it adds interesting layers to it, depending on your point of view. I really don't have a terribly strong opinion one way or the other. Though I've seen many a ferocious debate about it and tend to side with those who think it's all wishful thinking on her part. It seems more fitting with the characters and I don't think the text decidedly supports either view in a definitive way.

I would like to think though, that if they were having sex, it would be just as you describe imagining it.

Updated On: 10/27/13 at 02:15 PM

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 10/27/13 at 2:20pm

Gaveston, I always interpreted that specific line the way art scallion does. That they shouldn't try sleeping together AND shacking up together until it's legitimized in that part of the song, but in other parts of the song she is imagining rumpled bedding before the day. If there is a problematic contradiction, it never occurred to me. Contradictions are omnipresent in Sondheim.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 10/27/13 at 3:20pm

If they've been having sex, "By the Sea" is a far less interesting, fun and (creepy) song.

[Musicaldudepeter]

Posted: 10/27/13 at 3:25pm

I'm always surprised that By the Sea wasn't cut along the way in previews. It seems to slow the show down a bit at that moment. Lovett says it all when she mentions St. Swiven's and getting married etc. after the song, so I'm surprised that they just didn't leave it at that in order to push the show along to get to the wigmaker sequence and Not While I'm Around, etc... But I'm assuming Lansbury needed another showstopper after Worst Pies was so early in the show, so they kept it.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 10/28/13 at 12:44am

For me, "By the Sea" is important because it was the moment when I realized Lovett is as crazy as Sweeney. ("Now and then you can do the guest in" and "Bring along your chopper".)

Joey, I don't see the problem with Lovett and Todd living in sin on Fleet Street. "By the Sea" isn't about sex so much as it is about middle-class propriety, and Sondheim is pointing out the irony of a mass-murderer/cannibal worrying that the neighbors will suspect her and Todd of petty impropriety. It's why ST is political with or without Prince's factory on stage.