Bitter Losers Tony Thread- Page 8

[BroadwayConcierge]

Posted: 6/13/17 at 2:51pm

Great article, Dancingthrulife2, thank you for sharing. I really can't wrap my head around how a show that has so many issues to work out on paper could win Best Book.

[froote]

Posted: 6/13/17 at 2:54pm

The only wins of DEH that make sense to me are Ben and Rachel. If The Great Comet didn't exist, I could understand it winning score. But it does so. And the book was the worst of all the four nominees. 

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 6/13/17 at 3:06pm

I believe that most people starting a sentence with "to be fair" intend to offer an explanation instead of just making an observation.

Okay, well that's on you.  I was making an observation and I meant "to be fair" quite literally in my response.  Either way, I wasn't telling anyone how they should judge anything.

[GeorgeandDot]

Posted: 6/13/17 at 3:17pm

I think what people fail to realize is that DEH'S book is practically perfect on paper.  A lot of the problems that people have with it are not related to the actual writing, but are related to people's personal moral issues with the show. A lot of the problems that people have with it are clearly explained in the script, but for some reason, people aren't really catching them.  The only flaw that I think is valid, IMO, is that the ending can seem a bit tacked onto the rest of the show and that Zoe's line about "You saved my parents marriage" can be a bit distasteful, even though I understand what she means by that.  I can't think of a better book this season.

As for score and orchestrations, it really is a shame that Dave Malloy went unrecognized.  That score is just so damn innovative and decadent.  I love DEH'S score, but it really isn't nearly as complex as TGC.

[froote]

Posted: 6/13/17 at 3:19pm

For me it's not just the moral issues, it's that every character seems like a cartoon stereotype and the show also asks us to feel for characters that are vastly unlikeable. I also felt that the balance between comedy and darkness was handled really poorly, in comparison to shows like Fun Home and Next to Normal.

Updated On: 6/13/17 at 03:19 PM

[LYLS3637]

Posted: 6/13/17 at 3:20pm

GeorgeandDot said: "I think what people fail to realize is that DEH'S book is practically perfect on paper.  A lot of the problems that people have with it are not related to the actual writing, but are related to people's personal moral issues with the show."

 

^THIS!

[BuddyStarr]

Posted: 6/13/17 at 3:35pm

Amazed at all the Come From Away haters lamenting that their Comet didn't win best direction.  Are you serious?  CFA told a story with several chairs and articles of clothing yet you could visualize the people in the plane.  The way the director had the couple sightseeing while standing on chairs took you to where they were.  The way each character was different even though they were played by some of the same people was wonderful.  Yeah, Comet looked great (it won an award for that) but mostly the characters just ran around the theatre. Hardly anyone could visualize the splendor of the ballet or any of the other locations that occurred during Comet.  It was like a Mystery Café Dinner Show with bones thrown to the audience on stage, very gimmicky.

[GeorgeandDot]

Posted: 6/13/17 at 3:37pm

froote said: "For me it's not just the moral issues, it's that every character seems like a cartoon stereotype and the show also asks us to feel for characters that are vastly unlikeable. I also felt that the balance between comedy and darkness was handled really poorly, in comparison to shows like Fun Home and Next to Normal.

I see where you're coming from, but I found those same problems in CFA's book.  I actually thought DEH had very 3d characters, especially Evan and his mother.  I'm not really sure that I found the balance of comedy and darkness to be a problem at all, but it's all a matter of opinion.  I'm not saying that it's completely perfect, but I still think that it's vastly superior to any of the other books nominated.

 

[froote]

Posted: 6/13/17 at 3:38pm

Plenty of people have accomplished those things before. Only three years ago, we had If/Then do the plane staging and only last year we had very effective double casting in Hamilton. Great Comet's direction was so much more than just people running around.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 6/13/17 at 3:41pm

A lot of the problems that people have with it are not related to the actual writing, but are related to people's personal moral issues with the show.

Some of them are about moral ambiguity, some about responsibility and some are about the actual writing.  While watching, I encountered my share of WTF questions regarding both.  I didn't find the book "practically perfect" on or off paper and I wasn't even nit-picking.  And how fair is it to dismiss personal moral issues with the events of the plot when the book is quite clearly centered on personal morals and ethics?  I'm sure the show intended to appear complex in the decisions characters make, especially in the title character, but the book does take several shortcuts that have been rightly questioned.  

A lot of the problems that people have with it are clearly explained in the script, but for some reason, people aren't really catching them.

Then they probably aren't "clearly explained".  And I've seen TONS of explanations by fans based on how they assume the character felt or thought and what they probably did that was NOT in the book at all.  Much of it in this thread.  

[froote]

Posted: 6/13/17 at 3:42pm

GeorgeAndDot, I don't think any of the books were close to perfect so don't think I only have issues with Hansen's, it's just that's the one I found the most problems with. I think it's much more difficult to have a successful book of a musical than a successul score. Evan to me had little personality outside of his disorder and the mom was probably the best written character, but I couldn't stand the way she is written/portrayed in the Good For You scene. That made it hard for me to enjoy So Big/So Small almost immediately afterwards, which I think otherwise is a well written scene and easily the most effective in the show.

[GeorgeandDot]

Posted: 6/13/17 at 3:48pm

I think that the subtext in DEH says a lot.  What may not be blatantly explained, is probably implied.  I didn't find myself longing for unanswered questions after or during watching. This is all my opinion, but I happen to find DEH'S book to be practically perfect, especially on paper.

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 6/13/17 at 3:49pm

The reason people praise the design of The Great Comet is because of the strong vision of its director, who came up with the concept. The designers brilliantly did their jobs in bringing Rachel Chavkin's vision to life. What Chavkin did was take what could essentially be a radio play or opera and turn it into an explosive Broadway experience. It is certainly not just people running around in the aisles. This show shouldn't work on paper, but it absolutely does in my opinion because of Chavkin. I'm a fan of Malloy's work too, especially his orchestrations, but Chavkin made his weird play an event.

[froote]

Posted: 6/13/17 at 3:49pm

That's cool, I'm glad you enjoy it. I think though that people in this bitter losers threads have their minds made up about what they dislike by this point.

[vickster51]

Posted: 6/13/17 at 3:50pm

antoinetteperry said: "I was so happy I cried about Groundhog Day's nomination though!!

 

Still really puzzled why it did not do a 'full' season in London

 

"

London was only ever intended to be a short, warm-up run for Broadway. We can't wait to get it back!

[GeorgeandDot]

Posted: 6/13/17 at 3:52pm

HeyMrMusic said: "The reason people praise the design of The Great Comet is because of the strong vision of its director, who came up with the concept. The designers brilliantly did their jobs in bringing Rachel Chavkin's vision to life. What Chavkin did was take what could essentially be a radio play or opera and turn it into an explosive Broadway experience. It is certainly not just people running around in the aisles. This show shouldn't work on paper, but it absolutely does in my opinion because of Chavkin. I'm a fan of Malloy's work too, especially his orchestrations, but Chavkin made his weird play an event.

Yes!  Her work was absolutely fantastic it's a real shame that she wasn't recognized.

 

[haterobics]

Posted: 6/13/17 at 3:57pm

DEH has its own separate sore winners thread now.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 6/13/17 at 3:57pm

and the mom was probably the best written character

Maybe.  I found some of her plot points a bit questionable as well.

[froote]

Posted: 6/13/17 at 4:00pm

Mister Matt said: "and the mom was probably the best written character

Maybe.  I found some of her plot points a bit questionable as well."

Oh same, as I said I hated the Good For You scene and her role in the first act is encouraging Evan and nothing else. But then I do think So Big/So Small works for the most part, so in comparison to characters like Alana, Jared, Zoe and yes Evan, she at least gives me something.

 

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 6/13/17 at 4:12pm

My favorite character in Dear Evan Hansen, and the best written in my opinion, is Cynthia Murphy, and Jennifer Laura Thompson gave my favorite performance in the show. I wish she had more to do. (I can see why Ben and Rachel won and I respect their performances a lot.)

I remember seeing the show at Second Stage and thinking it was going to be about the moms because they sing the opening number. I also thought that the show was unfinished and that they would rewrite the ending by the time it opened on Broadway. Both of those structural elements of the book that I found questionable remained unchanged and I do think the bookends are still weird.

[vickster51]

Posted: 6/13/17 at 4:14pm

Living in London, I didn't see all the nominees, but did see all 4 Best Musical candidates and some of the wins surprised me. Like most people on here, I was surprised about direction and orchestration.

Personally, I wasn't a huge fan of The Great Comet. I enjoyed the experience in a stage seat (I always pick a stage seat in London if that's an option for a show) and loved the staging, but the score wasn't really my cup of tea and I didn't connect with the show on an emotional level. Having said that, I tend to like very few musicals and certainly thought it deserved orchestration and probably direction.

I loved DEH when I saw it, finding it a profoundly moving experience, but was surprised if won best book. I'd have probably given that to CFA, which I thought was great.

Then of course there's GHD, which is one of my favourites since it was here. I really hoped Andy Karl had a shot at pinching the Tony from Ben Platt, as that role requires so much from him. I also don't think there's been enough credit Tim Minchin's lyrics, which only get better the more I listen to them.

Oh, and as I loved The Little Foxes, I was also sad for Laura Linney.

[wonderfulwizard11]

Posted: 6/13/17 at 4:23pm

I know opinions are opinions, but anyone who thinks  Chavkin's direction in Great Comet was just "actors running around the theatre" is really underselling her work. Are there moments of chaos around the entire space? Of course. But there are also moments of incredible stillness- No One Else, Dust and Ashes, and the finale. What makes her work so good is how effectively she contrasts these explosive moments with the stiller ones. It heightens the emotion of those smaller moments and makes them much more touching. Plus, it's no small feat to coordinate the movement of over 30 actors and musicians around a massive space, especially when your piece started in what's essentially a black box theatre.

I enjoyed Come From Away a lot and I think Christopher Ashley did well with it, but I wouldn't call any element of his direction especially new or innovative. 

[froote]

Posted: 6/13/17 at 4:30pm

I find it strange that Great Comet is consistently referred to as spectacle over substance or gimmicky. Why do people ignore 'Pierre', 'No One Else', 'Dust and Ashes', 'Sonya Alone', 'Pierre & Andrey', 'Pierre & Natasha' and 'The Great Comet of 1812'? Do people think they put those 7 songs in for the sake of it, rather than to provide substance? As you say, the purpose of the spectacle is actually to enhance the moments of substance. 

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 6/13/17 at 5:10pm

Oh same, as I said I hated the Good For You scene and her role in the first act is encouraging Evan and nothing else.

Funny you should say that.  By intermission, I was wondering when the role was going to become nomination-worthy as she seemed almost an afterthought in act one.  She certainly had her dramatic moments in the second act, but her through-line just didn't add up for me.  

What may not be blatantly explained, is probably implied.  I didn't find myself longing for unanswered questions after or during watching.

That's not subtext.  Subtext is an underlying meaning behind words or actions.  I wasn't so much longing for unanswered questions as I was wondering why pertinent issues posed by the book were raised and either ignored or conveniently swept under the rug by the Hail Mary ending.  I don't mind moral ambiguity in characters.  I think it makes them more relatable.  It's the morally ambiguous book of such a purposely message-driven cautionary tale dramatic musical that made me feel a bit sick afterwards.

[haje]

Posted: 6/13/17 at 7:29pm

I think a lot of DEH's book problems really get overlooked due to the performances and the score. I've seen a lot of "I cried a lot in the theatre and only when I was able to step away from the moment that I managed to see the flaws" comments re: DEH. I don't think it deserved Best Book and I wish Orchestration had been given to Malloy instead, but I can't really begrudge it it's other awards (I thought Rachel/Ben were very deserving and I can't even be too mad about Best Musical because I've seen worse musicals get that prize so I don't get all too upset about the big prize anymore) because I think the score was wholly deserving and yes, while very different and definitely far simpler than The Great Comet score which I also quite enjoyed, Pasek and Paul's strengths (to me) have always been their ability to capture emotions really well. I think both scores are apples and oranges and I like them both for very different reasons and to me, both would have been deserving of those awards (especially against the other competitors). I think if you take away that score and specifically how the performers perform said score and had made this a straight up play for example, those flaws would be far easier to notice and far harder for people to forgive imo.

The Chavkin snub baffles me. If she had lost to Greif, I would have at least semi-understood that it was less for his DEH work and more of as  a reward for all the nominations and the lack of wins (not that I think that should have happened but at least I could understand that reasoning), but Ashley getting it was confusing. I haven't seen the show so obviously I can't say anything regarding his actual direction but what Chavkin did was a genuine achievement. If they had wanted to reward Come From Away with something, I thought they would have given it Best Book not Best Director. 

Updated On: 6/13/17 at 07:29 PM