Bitter Losers Tony Thread — Page 6
#127
Posted: 6/12/17 at 12:26pm
I have been pretty soft spoken about DEH because I know it means so much to so many people. But I have to say I just don't get why people consider it to be a "Great Musical"
The plot is basically "Six Degrees of Seperation" but with white people. (Rich couple who can't connect with their kids meets a lying boy who says he friends with their son and he interjects himself into their life, and they all muse about how interconnected people are. I could keep going on similarities) which I'm surprised more people aren't connecting.
But that asside:
-the lyricism is sloppy at best. Do you really want me to believe a 17 year old who barely can put words together came up with that "falling in a forest metaphor?
-Most of the songs are just people singing about an event that just happened as opposed to progressing action.
-The character Evan is so damn passive he spends most of act one just letting people lie for him while he sits there.
-In act 2 there isn't a single event or character growth that happens that you wouldn't predict at intermission.
-most of the characters are so underwritten they may as well be cartoons. Especially the other kids.
-and most upsetting of all: the shows moral is essentially "if you get a girlfriend you'll cure your social anxiety"
Is there something I missed? Because to me it's a sloppily constructed musical with all the depth of an after school special. I don't think this would all bother me near as much if every time the fans or creative team talk about it they think they've just written something so important it may as well be the next "normal heart"
#128
Posted: 6/12/17 at 12:32pm
Robbie2 said: "Ashley over Chavkin or Greif?????????"
I know it's a day later, but I have to add: "Or Zaks or Warchus?!" I was SO thrilled to see Rebecca Taichman win for her stunning direction of Indecent--a glorious surprise. And then my heart thudded to the floor with Ashley's win. I'm not much of a Great Comet fan (I know--I'm sorry), but I did think Chavkin deserved the win. I think the success of that show rests entirely on her shoulders. But truly, if she was going to lose, there were still three better choices than Christopher Ashley's hokey, ridiculous direction of Come from Away. I'm still floored. There were other surprises, but nothing made my jaw drop like that choice.
#129
Posted: 6/12/17 at 12:35pm
I'm not really "bitter" about any of the specific awards - for the most part the people whom I was rooting for won, and no one won that I didn't think deserved it.
But I'm really bummed that Groundhog Day will probably not last much longer, which is a damn shame because I absolutely loved it. It just got lost in this crowded season, and while I love "Seeing You" I don't think it was the best representation of the wit and humor of the show. (Though I was thinking about it and I don't know how they could've recreated most of it at Radio City without those complicated interlocking turntables, and many of the best moments in the show make no sense out of context.)
Anyway, we'll see what happens, but I think the (understandable given the competition) awards shutout and the not-great-representation performance did not do the show any favors.
#130
Posted: 6/12/17 at 12:52pm
Is the disappointment with Dave Malloy not winning orchestrations because people want him to win something or because people think great comet’s orchestrations are legitimately clearly superior to dear evan hansen’s? I personally would have liked Malloy to win something, but what’s the great comet song that shows off amazing orchestrations? I can’t think of a song that made me think “man, that was an incredibly lush arrangement, he really took advantage of all the instruments at his disposal” and my favorite songs (Sonya alone, Pierre and Natasha) are pretty much dominated by the piano (the instrument the music was composed on). Well, I did enjoy the orchestration of “the duel” now that I think of it (still wouldn't call it lush though) but as a whole I don’t see how the orchestration of Great Comet is clearly superior to Dear Evan Hansen. I personally would have liked Malloy to win since he deserved to win something for the years he devoted to the Great Comet and Lacamoire won last year for Hamilton, but I definitely don’t think Malloy was robbed. I actually think Dear Evan Hansen's songs come off as much fuller and more lush.
#131
Posted: 6/12/17 at 12:54pm
I agree with the above posts regarding DEH. I was so underwhelmed after I saw it and thought it was so generic. Not to mention the whole "lie about everything and get people to like you and then your life will miraculously be changed forever and your anxiety will be healed" thing. There''s no doubt that Ben deserved that Tony. He is immensely talented and his performance is unreal.
My real problem with DEH is that Evan is a kid who has serious problems and they turned him into this comedic character. Everyone laughs at his ticks and his interactions but this kid has a mental illness. It just felt strange laughing at this person who has crippling social anxiety. It's kind of reminiscent of 13 Reasons Why, which a lot of people were all up in arms about earlier this year, yet no one is saying the same things about DEH as they were about 13 Reasons Why.
#132
Posted: 6/12/17 at 12:56pm
To each their own, of course, but listen to Letters or No One Else. Those gorgeous violins and woodwinds really make the sound of the score especially, as well as the percussion. Plus, I personally find it incredibly impressive that Malloy did all of it on his own, which is rare for a composer. Lacamoire is a talented man, but the DEH orchestrations sound like typical contemporary Broadway- not bad, but not surprising or interesting.
I am a firm believer in serendipity- all the random pieces coming together in one wonderful moment, when suddenly you see what their purpose was all along.
#133
Posted: 6/12/17 at 1:04pm
JudyDenmark said: "...while I love "Seeing You" I don't think it was the best representation of the wit and humor of the show. (Though I was thinking about it and I don't know how they could've recreated most of it at Radio City without those complicated interlocking turntables, and many of the best moments in the show make no sense out of context.)
"
I thought the PacMan-esque car chase in Nobody Cares was going to make an appearance. Don't need any rotation for that one!
#134
Posted: 6/12/17 at 1:11pm
Yeah, I still think Malloy's orchestrations were the best of this season. Listen to The Opera, Letters, The Abduction. What he has done is truly amazing and innovative. The spinning wine glasses alone are a perfect example of how he fills his songs with brilliant new sounds. And I especially love that he has specific instruments/styles for specific characters. Like Pierre is acoustic and classic whereas Anatole brings electronica wherever he goes. Just listen to the backs of the songs when different characters are singing it's truly amazing.
I just think that compared to Comet's orchestrations, Dear Evan Hansen's sounded beautifully generic..
#135
Posted: 6/12/17 at 1:15pm
Christopher Ashley winning direction is truly laughable, and it's a shame that Dave Malloy didn't win orchestrations. Other than that, I'm pretty happy with how last night went.
#136
Posted: 6/12/17 at 1:19pm
froote said: "10086Sundays said: "My issue with DEH is when I thought about the show afterwards, I felt like I'd just seen Next to Normal, with the ages and genders swapped, plus a different diagnosis. They just made the lead a young guy kids would fall for to sell more tickets than N2N. "
Yep. The first thing I did when I left DEH for the first time was listen to Next to Normal. And you're totally right that they made him a teenager with social anxiety, instead of the far less common manic depression in order to appeal to teenagers and hey, it has worked! And you can literally match up the scores. Light = You Will Be Found, I Am the One = Good For You, Waving Through a Window = I'm Alive etc. The problem is despite arriving on the scene 8 years earlier, being much darker and having a much more varied score, Next to Normal never got the same recognition or buzz than its sanitized counterpart has. Not only am I feeling for Great Comet today, but I'm also feeling for those involved with Next to Normal who went for something riskier - and IMO more rewarding - than DEH and yet never got the same acknowledgement. Can't imagine how irritating it is to hear some describe it as groundbreaking.
"
Plus, the N2N score is so much better and sticks with you much longer than DEH.
#137
Posted: 6/12/17 at 1:22pm
Sigh. Even beyond the fact that I think Comet deserved so much more, I am frustrated about the sheer number of poc that were sidelined for shows that featured only straight white characters. It really does feel like a pushback against the recent diversity on broadway. Hamilton was too good to be ignored, but they can sideline Comet and Come From Away in favour of white boys from hollywood and 'classic' broadway shows.
And yeah, that's probably a little harsh, but it's the morning after the tonys. There are good points about all shows, and you can argue who deserved X specific award over who. But in aggregate, it was really disappointing to see so many diverse creators and actors get sidelined in favour of the status quo.
#138
Posted: 6/12/17 at 1:26pm
I agree with most of the Dear Evan Hansen posts on here regarding its issues. One I want to add that bothered me a lot was Evan's character in general. No one in the show, other than Evan's mom, had a true arc or depth of character and I expected a lot more for Evan. I get that they likely kept him plain so that people can just project themselves onto him, but that did not work for me at all. Instead, he came across as a kid whose only personality trait is his mental disorder, which the audience finds hilarious.
So, add another person bitter that TGC didn't win. You'd think after last year with Hamilton opening doors we'd keep trying to go that direction, but apparently not. It really hurts my heart that it didn't win anything other than lights and set.
#139
Posted: 6/12/17 at 1:26pm
I was a bitter loser the year N2N lost to Billy Eliot, and I'm disappointed that SJB lost. We had great shows this year I didn't see GHD or Come From Away, but DEH and Comet were both great and maybe three of these would have beaten some shows that have won in recent years .
Stephanatic
#140
Posted: 6/12/17 at 1:26pm
I was very, very angry last night.
Yes, DEH deserved some wins (I would have been offended have the Best Actor prize had gone to someonw else) but I would have loved to see the awards given out more evenly. I think it says, to those who do not follow Musical theatre and even looking back in some years, that DEH was several, several times a better musical than TGC and CFA.
I wouldn't have minded that DEH got the big prize if Orchestrations, Book and Score had gone to TCG and CFA (I wanted to see Jenn Colella winning over RBJ, but that's just pointless ranting). I know Rachel Chavkin deserved Direction, but I was so, so happy to see CFA winning that. I was scared they wouldn't even get one. I may be wrong, but of the three front runners, I guess they can get the worst blow from the lack of awards.
I wish Lucas Steele had won Best Featured Actor. It's very sad TGC didn't get an award on the broadcast.
#141
Posted: 6/12/17 at 1:28pm
My issue with DEH is when I thought about the show afterwards, I felt like I'd just seen Next to Normal, with the ages and genders swapped, plus a different diagnosis.
Yeah, the score even sounds like Next to Normal and If/Then, though the quality of the DEH score lies somewhere in between those two.
Do you really want me to believe a 17 year old who barely can put words together came up with that "falling in a forest metaphor?
That's just Musical Theatre 101. Do you really think Annie thinks in terms of clearing away the cobwebs and the sorrows while forming her New Day philosophy of optimism?
-In act 2 there isn't a single event or character growth that happens that you wouldn't predict at intermission.
There was for me!
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I never thought the main character would get a full Hail Mary pass on committing fraud to the tune of $50k and that the consequences of committing such a crime (for either him or his mother, especially depending on his age) were never raised in this show. It was not only ignored, but basically excused as the ends justify the means.
-and most upsetting of all: the shows moral is essentially "if you get a girlfriend you'll cure your social anxiety"
To me, that's a lesser offense than "It'll all work out as long as you mean well". The show proved that ultimately, you can be reckless and completely irresponsible with everyone's lives, in person and especially on the internet, not only get away with it, but improving everyone's lives as well as your own in the process. YAY! Afterwards, I kinda felt sick.
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So, I'm assuming this has been discussed before, but I haven't read every page of every DEH thread. Did I miss something or did they just forget about the fact that he was seeing a therapist once a week and his mother was so concerned, she wanted him to go even sooner at the top of the show? Because I don't remember therapy visits ever being brought up again except only when referencing his medication once in the second act. Did he stop going? Wouldn't she notice if she's having to pay? Or did he continue to go and lie to his therapist? There seemed to be this importance placed on his mental/emotional health at the top of the show (and his behavior seemed almost aspergers or something). And if he was spending so much time with the other family, including often spending the night, the other family waited MONTHS before ever reaching out to his mother? But then somehow just found her contact information to invite her to dinner without Evan knowing?
I was ready to be all aboard the DEH love train until I watched it and to be honest, all these questions popped up for me as I was watching the show. It was some sort of after-the-fact bitter pill or anything. By intermission, my husband and I were both raising eyebrows at what we were watching. I'm actually rather disheartened that the show was so easily embraced. As much as I hated Spring Awakening, its message was a lot easier to take than this one.
"What can you expect from a bunch of seitan worshippers?" - Reginald Tresilian
Updated On: 6/12/17 at 01:28 PM
#142
Posted: 6/12/17 at 1:32pm
I do see the similarities between N2N and DEH, but I think that ultimately DEH is the more hopeful show. Even taking into account that Evan has done a terrible thing. Or perhaps especially taking that into account, because there's the implication that even when we do bad things and justly suffer the consequences, there may be a way to find forgiveness in the end, and start again. I don't think N2N really went there, and it ended with the damaged character isolating herself instead of reaching for renewed human connection, which always grated on me a little.
Sorry for being non-bitter in the bitter thread! 
I just wanted to comment on that particular topic. I like both shows, but to me, that's one advantage that DEH has above N2N. At least, I see it as an advantage.
#143
Posted: 6/12/17 at 1:38pm
I don't really think that Dolly deserved costumes....I was rooting MUCH more for War Paint and Anastasia....ALSO someone PLEASE TELL ME so Bandstand and War Paint don't get best musical noms but then they perform....whereas Anastasia didn't get nominated either but they didn't perform??? How come?? Some people might say oh because it didn't get many or any big nominations when actually it got 2 (same amount as bandstand) and one of the noms was a performance nom.....so where were they???
#144
Posted: 6/12/17 at 1:44pm
Either they weren't invited or the producers didn't want to pay for a performance.
I am a firm believer in serendipity- all the random pieces coming together in one wonderful moment, when suddenly you see what their purpose was all along.
#145
Posted: 6/12/17 at 1:52pm
MCfan2 said: "I do see the similarities between N2N and DEH, but I think that ultimately DEH is the more hopeful show. Even taking into account that Evan has done a terrible thing. Or perhaps especially taking that into account, because there's the implication that even when we do bad things and justly suffer the consequences, there may be a way to find forgiveness in the end, and start again. I don't think N2N really went there, and it ended with the damaged character isolating herself instead of reaching for renewed human connection, which always grated on me a little.
Sorry for being non-bitter in the bitter thread! I just wanted to comment on that particular topic. I like both shows, but to me, that's one advantage that DEH has above N2N. At least, I see it as an advantage."
I mean, Next to Normal's finale is a song centered around the line 'there will be light'. To me, that's hopeful. But it's not hopeful in an unrealistic way like DEH. Next to Normal's ending is bittersweet, because manic depression often does not have a happy ending, rather there are moments of light to help people get through. DEH's clean and tidy 'everyone forgave me and my social anxiety is so much better and it's gonna be a good day!' feels so much less genuine and therefore less moving.
#146
Posted: 6/12/17 at 1:56pm
Like a previous poster, I'm still bitter that Jon Jon briones didn't get nominated. I'm also annoyed that David HP and josh groman got nominated I mean they were very good but no comparison to JJ's performance as the engineeer.
#147
Posted: 6/12/17 at 2:04pm
I mean, Next to Normal's finale is a song centered around the line 'there will be light'. To me, that's hopeful. But it's not hopeful in an unrealistic way like DEH. Next to Normal's ending is bittersweet, because manic depression often does not have a happy ending, rather there are moments of light to help people get through.
Completely agree. Justly suffering the consequences is not something that happens in DEH. By the time the score deflated, I at least wanted something representing justice. Instead, I got slapped in the face by the author's kid gloves.
"What can you expect from a bunch of seitan worshippers?" - Reginald Tresilian
#148
Posted: 6/12/17 at 2:11pm
I'm also annoyed that David HP and josh groman got nominated I mean they were very good but no comparison to JJ's performance as the engineeer.
Well, to be fair, Hyde Pierce and Groban haven't been playing their respective roles for over two decades prior to Broadway.
"What can you expect from a bunch of seitan worshippers?" - Reginald Tresilian
#149
Posted: 6/12/17 at 2:11pm
Dear Evan Hansen only deserved two of the awards they won-Ben & Rachel. The show is highly mediocre and they stole Come From Away's award for Best Musical. Not surprised they won, but I am still truly disappointed.
#150
Posted: 6/12/17 at 2:16pm
froote said: "I mean, Next to Normal's finale is a song centered around the line 'there will be light'. To me, that's hopeful. But it's not hopeful in an unrealistic way like DEH. Next to Normal's ending is bittersweet, because manic depression often does not have a happy ending, rather there are moments of light to help people get through. DEH's clean and tidy 'everyone forgave me and my social anxiety is so much better and it's gonna be a good day!' feels so much less genuine and therefore less moving.
"
I'm not sure EVERYONE forgives him -- that isn't made clear, is it? A lot of his relationships are broken. But his mother forgives him, and their relationship is restored, and to me that's a more tangible, real kind of hope, to know that at least there's one person still loving and supporting him. But there's a large amount of subjectivity in all this. My larger point is just that, while there are major similarities between the two shows, I think there are also significant differences.
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