Can Maria (Sound of Music) be black?- Page 5

[Fenchurch]

Posted: 4/28/07 at 4:57pm

It seems to be that if anyone were to look past race, it woudl be Captain Von Trapp, and the Nazi would certainly not just have busted in and dragged her off to concentration camp just because she was black. While they would have been pissed, obviously, they would not have insulted the captain. Remember they want him on their side at first, he's a fairly powerful man.

And again, to everyone who says it's not historical. YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO PRETEND SHE IS NOT BLACK. Cann you do that? Can you look past the color of a person's skin?
If not, then you're a bigot. Call it being hisotrically accurate (if youre going to be that historically accurate, they shouldn't be singing..where does the music come from?), but it's just bigotry.

[BigFatBlonde]

Posted: 4/28/07 at 5:03pm

" do have to ask why did Von Trapp refuse to accept a position in the Third Reich? Though it's never stated, I think we're supposed to believe that it had something to do with the Nazis' policies on race."


Wow that is a real stretch!

I think that(the musical creation of)Von Trapp refused to accept the position in the third reich because they invaded his homeland and began a tyranical reign.

Hence the Lyric...

"Bless my homeland forever"

It wasn't bless my palor forever.

Updated On: 4/28/07 at 05:03 PM

[BroadwayGirl107]

Posted: 4/28/07 at 5:15pm

""The Sound of Music is a true story (with some poetic license taken) about real people. Maria Von Trapp was a real person, not a fictional one. She was white. To portray her as black changes the story to fiction, and reconfigures the context of the play."

I hate to burst your bubble, but a lot about the musical is fictionalized. They didn't climb over the mountains to Switzerland. And Maria Von Trapp looked nothing like Julie Andrews. Should they not have cast her because the real Maria was not blonde with short hair?

"While I think that PerforMeg should probably go ahead and cast the actress in question, I do have to ask why did Von Trapp refuse to accept a position in the Third Reich? Though it's never stated, I think we're supposed to believe that it had something to do with the Nazis' policies on race."

He refused it for all sorts of disagreements on their policies; one could assume just about every policy the Third Reich had. However, I'm not sure how that would have anything to do with Maria being black.

[LostLeander]

Posted: 4/28/07 at 5:27pm

How many people knew about Maria Von Trapp before Sound of Music?
Not many.

When a piece of art makes a person famous, I'm not quite sure how relevant historical accuracy is.

And even now, who knows what Maria Von Trapp looks like? Most people thinks she looks like Julie Andrews, or they don't care.

If it were Jackie Kennedy, or Britney Spears, of course, attention should be paid to how the actress playing her looks.
But the character of Maria Von Trapp in the musical/movie Sound of Music is not written to bear a direct resemblance to the actual Maria Von Trapp, as Little/Big Edie in Grey Gardens is.

[ktennenbaum]

Posted: 4/28/07 at 10:20pm

Fenchurch, they did sing! Hence the Von Trapp family singers! They did actually sing. I did say that the storytellers, as most do, took poetic license. That means that they did add things to the story that didn't actually happen or happened at a different time. However, the singing part wasn't made up!

As for all the stuff about if she was white and I think she shouldn't be cast as black, then that means I probably think she shouldn't be fat or blonde or Julie Andrews, come on now, that's just arguing for the sake of arguing and not for the sake of listening to and respecting each others' opinions isn't it? I hope that the people who are writing here are smarter than that! There's a big difference between casting someone who has different hair color and casting someone who has different skin color.

And last but not least, as for the class issue, I didn't say that because she was black there would be a class issue! I said that there is a class issue. How about the astonishment from the guests when Captain Von Trapp invites Maria to join the company for dinner? The difference in class is already in the story. People would not expect Von Trapp to marry a girl who is beneath him, in social class! Von Trapp has to learn that when it comes to love, there is no social strata. And no, that doesn't mean you have to cast a "poor" white actress in the part!

Posted: 4/28/07 at 10:31pm

Maria in THE SOUND OF MUSIC can't be black anymore than Lizzie in 110 IN THE SHADE can be black. While producers and directors might be color-blind, most of us aren't

[Fenchurch]

Posted: 4/28/07 at 10:37pm

"There's a big difference between casting someone who has different hair color and casting someone who has different skin color. "

Sorry, but scientifically, there's no real difference. The only difference is social, and discriminating for that reason is the very definition of bigotry.

I don't see how you can't get that.

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 4/28/07 at 10:49pm

How did we get 5 pages into this and no one mentions Toni Braxton playing Belle in 'Beauty And The Beast'?!


If she's the best, then cast her!

[ktennenbaum]

Posted: 4/28/07 at 11:13pm

bigotry
noun
"Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion"

That's the definition of bigotry, not what Fenchurch just wrote.

I am not a bigot. I simply think that when telling a true story, you stay as close to the truth of the story as possible. That would not be possible with a black Maria Von Trapp just as it would not be possible with a white Jackie Robinson!

[soapguy17]

Posted: 4/28/07 at 11:25pm

ktennenbaum, why is it that people firmly against color blind casting always use that argument. And how is a casting a white Jackie Robinson any more ridiculous than my crack about casting a blond overweight Maria w/ a F6? It seems that's also arguing for the sake of arguing and not respecting opinions now is it?

If there were a musical about Jackie Robinson, I'm note sure if there is or not, his race, and his struggle because of his race would be very important.

Let's say one day someone did a musical about my life, I would certainly not care that I was cast as White, because my race has nothing to do what the way I live my life or the things that have happened in it. And even if I were alive, to sit down in watch this musical I would be able to enjoy the talented performer portraying me. No matter what race they are.

Maria's life story, about becoming nun, teaching kids how to sing, and falling in love with a Captain has nothing to do with her being white.

Updated On: 4/28/07 at 11:25 PM

[wonderfulwizard11]

Posted: 4/28/07 at 11:28pm

Though the real Maria Von Trapp was white, I don't think it matters too much to cast her. If it's a character where the race is specific to the story (Coalhouse in Ragtime, Effie in Dreamgirls, etc.) then it should be cast accordingly. However, The Sound of Music isn't really about race relations, so it doesn't matter.

[nobodyhome]

Posted: 4/29/07 at 3:59am

Folks, the Nazis' racial policies were central to why anyone would have objected to them. While the captain surely objected to their invasion of Austria, and he has lines like "I am an Austrian—I will not be heiled!" I don't think we're supposed to think he's unaware of their racial policies and surely he objects to them. Greatly. And this is surely one of the main reasons he despises them.

I can't even imagine why anyone would think it's a "real stretch" to state that one of the reasons why the Captain would refuse a commisssion in their Navy was their racial policies. It was central to their whole agenda: To cleanse not just Germany but the whole world of non-Aryans.

Indeed, it's not as if Jews in Austria had nothing to worry about from the Nazis.

"Edelweiss" was the last song added to the show. It borrows from typical Nazi imagery—homeland, a white flower—to turn it back again. Surely it's about defending Austria from the entire Nazi agenda. Was the captain going to sing a song objecting to the Nazis' racial policies in front of Nazi officials just before he and his family attempt to escape? The absence of such a statement in the show does not indicate the absence of those thoughts from his mind.

"It seems to be that if anyone were to look past race, it woudl be Captain Von Trapp, and the Nazi would certainly not just have busted in and dragged her off to concentration camp just because she was black. While they would have been pissed, obviously, they would not have insulted the captain."

Of course not. Not yet.

But they also would not give him a commission in their Navy if he's married to a black woman.

And he (and she) would certainly be well-advised to get out of Austria quickly—if we're viewing her as an actual black woman, which you say we're not supposed to do (and I certainly agree that if a black woman is cast as Maria, we're not meant to view the character as a black woman).

[nobodyhome]

Posted: 4/29/07 at 10:44am

It's nice, though, when the best person does get cast. Away from the commercial pressures of Broadway, this perhaps happens more often. I don't know that anyone said that the best person does always get cast.

I think there are viable arguments on both sides of the question posed by the original poster, but I can only think it's good if a talented person gets a good role.

[mpw607]

Posted: 4/29/07 at 8:09pm

I only know the movie and that certainly misrepresents the historical situation. Virtually every Austrian at that time would have accepted that they were "German" in the cultural and national sense. The debate was between those who put nationalism first and wanted the Anschluss (even under a Nazi regime) and those who abhorred Nazism and therefore wanted to retain independence. Some one like Captain von Trapp would probably not have objected to the Anschluss if it had been done democratically. Captain von Trapp was very much an exception: unlike most others he was neither neither a naive enthusaist for Nazism (Rolf)nor a cynical fellow traveller (Max).

Normally I'd say go ahead with a black actress if she's the best. But don't blame the audience if some of them find it a bit harder to suspend disbelief or if they get a bit confused.
The potential problem with introducing a black Maria is that it might distract from the big issue which is the tension between principle and expediency. Ever read the "hilarious things overheard" thread? I can just hear some of the confused audience: "why did they have to flee their homeland mommy?" "Because the Captain married a black lady and they were persecuting her." etc etc That's not why he fled. He fled because political tension not racial tension.

As another point of historical fact is that there were very few black people in pre-war Germany maybe 100,000 at most and very few indeed in landlocked Austria. In contrast to the terrible persecution of Jews, there's not much on persecution of black people. In fact Jessie Owens said he was treated far better in Germany than back in the USA.

[iliketheater]

Posted: 4/29/07 at 8:57pm

I can't offer as much information regarding historical accuracy as some of our friends on this board can, but I have a little bit of insight on the matter ... I think that if you're the person in charge of casting, then you should cast whoever you think will be best in the production. Plain and simple.

We're all very familiar with TSOM and I think it would be nice to see a production that changes things up a bit. If you were to cast this actress/singer, you would NOT be the first to do it with a black (or non-white, for that matter) Maria at all, so we're not talking about something revolutionary here.

Do what you want. As long as it's a good piece of art, we theatre-lovers will support it.

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 4/29/07 at 10:43pm

Has anyone ever noticed that historical inaccuracies are only mentioned when someone's talking about race. People will accept a nannie who flies, slides up a staircase, pulls floor lamps out of her bag and jumps into cartoons but the minute someone suggests she could be asian or indian or black, it's suddenly inaccurate. LOL


We start talking about show business and history. I ask what happen to theatricality? A world where we have helicopters and chandeliers in the theatre has forced us to expect hyper realism. What ever happened to actors telling a story? I mean the fact of the matter is everyone and their mother knows Sound of Music. At least telling teh story this way is interesting. I'd like to see an entirely mixed cast actually. I mean c'mon it's the sound of music. It's not sacred. I can understand concerns but will the story really be lost with the black actress? I think that's the most important consideration.



"Maria in THE SOUND OF MUSIC can't be black anymore than Lizzie in 110 IN THE SHADE can be black. While producers and directors might be color-blind, most of us aren't "

Tom14850, that's a problem with this country. It certainly isn't something to be proud of.

[Michael Bennett]

Posted: 4/29/07 at 10:48pm

Okay Jazzy - I'm lost on your analogy to MARY POPPINS...

[EdmundOG]

Posted: 4/29/07 at 11:04pm

People will accept a nannie who flies, slides up a staircase, pulls floor lamps out of her bag and jumps into cartoons but the minute someone suggests she could be asian or indian or black, it's suddenly inaccurate. LOL
=========================================

Shoot... Maria can do all that?

[COOOOLkid]

Posted: 4/29/07 at 11:22pm

I think it's whether you (as the audience) are capable of not being bothered by the skin color of the performer and still enjoy the show.

Basically, it's impossible to argue and try to change the mind of someone who is against color-blind casting.

Updated On: 4/29/07 at 11:22 PM

[nobodyhome]

Posted: 4/29/07 at 11:46pm

"Has anyone ever noticed that historical inaccuracies are only mentioned when someone's talking about race."

I don't think that's true. Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't.

If you're talking specifically about a performer's appearance in relation to historical accuracy, I'm Jewish and I wouldn't buy Barbara Streisand or Bette Midler as Mame for one second.

I love Judy Kaye, but appearance-wise I don't think she'd make sense as Big Edie/Little Edie in Grey Gardens, though I bet she could act it and sing it awfully well.

Lea DeLaria is a talented performer, but I don't think she'd be very convincing as Louise in Gypsy.

[LostLeander]

Posted: 4/30/07 at 12:14am

Wait...
Bette Midler's jewish?

And moreso, you couldn't see Bette Midler as Mame because she's Jewish?

Hmmm...

[ray-andallthatjazz86]

Posted: 4/30/07 at 12:16am

Nobodyhome, while I get your last point, I think you're pointing out examples of people being miscast in a role due to appearance, acting style, etc (except in the case of Judy Kaye in GREY GARDENS perhaps) while JazzySuite was referring more to an actor being refused to be part of a piece because their race is "historically inaccurate" in the contest of the role. In that sense, I agree with him.
I think a lot of people in this thread are speaking from a white priviledged point of view. I'm Latino--probably biased--and when I was trying to explore acting in high school (in Miami of all places), I was never able to play a non-explicitly-ethnic role because I'm clearly not white. In some instances (particularly in community theater), people should be given a chance based on their talents--and this is not SOUTH PACIFIC, RAGTIME, or A RAISIN IN THE SUN where a specific ethnicity is at the center of the drama.

[nobodyhome]

Posted: 4/30/07 at 12:31am

Well, I specifically used examples from shows about people who really lived. I was addressing the issue that I thought Jazzysuite was raising—that of historical accuracy in regard to appearance in casting.

I think these questions are generally more complex than people on either extreme of the point-of-view spectrum often are willing to acknowledge.

Certainly, questions of historical accuracy as regards matters other than appearance in plays or films about people who really lived do come up fairly often. For example, there has already been some questioning of the historical accuracy of Frost/Nixon.

And, yeah, LostLeander, given the content of Mame, it would be hard for me to believe that those "Aryans from Darien" the Upsons (OK, I know that Mame doesn't actually refer to the Upsons by that term) would not notice that Bette Midler does not seem to be "our kind of people," and that therefore Patrick probably isn't. The issue of religious background is implicitly of importance in Mame, though not quite as much as it is in Auntie Mame.

Btw, just to clarify, I did write more than once in my several posts in this thread that I felt the director should probably cast the woman in question.
Updated On: 4/30/07 at 12:31 AM

[BroadwayGirl107]

Posted: 4/30/07 at 12:33am

"While the captain surely objected to their invasion of Austria, and he has lines like "I am an Austrian—I will not be heiled!" I don't think we're supposed to think he's unaware of their racial policies and surely he objects to them. Greatly."

I'm still not sure what that has to do with the Von Trapps. They were not Jewish (at least Maria certainly is not in the movie), and I THOUGHT the "racial" policy had more to do with religion than anything else.

"I do love the people saying, if she is the best person and most talented then she is the one who should be cast!"
Honey, read what you just wrote. The key word is SHOULD. People said that's what SHOULD happen, not what normally does happen.

"But don't blame the audience if some of them find it a bit harder to suspend disbelief or if they get a bit confused."
Why not? It'd take a real idiot to watch The Sound of Music and not understand that Von Trapp is fleeing because he refuses to accept a position in the Third Reich.

[nobodyhome]

Posted: 4/30/07 at 12:49am

BroadwayGirl107, I'm not 100-percent sure what point you're making in response to the comment of mine that you quote.

In any case, perhaps this quotation (from the linked website) will address it:

http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/H/holocaust/victims2.html

"Laws against the propagation of 'lives not worthy of life', which legalised eugenic sterilisation, targeted Gypsies, black Germans and disabled people. In addition, in the Nazis' first year in office, many Gypsies were imprisoned, condemned as 'habitual criminals'.

"They were also mentioned in the 1935 Nuremberg Laws, directed primarily against Jews. These laws forbade Germans from marrying 'Jews, Negroes and Gypsies'. A Nazi policy statement that year declared: 'In Europe generally, only Gypsies and Jews come under consideration as members of an alien people.' "

If that doesn't clarify it for you, let me know.