Diversity on Broadway- Page 12

[hork]

Posted: 10/17/15 at 7:31pm

Charley Kringas Inc said: "hork said: "Aaaand, we're back to this. Those shows are set in England. And not modern England, but old timey England. Where there were a lot of white people and not a lot of not-white people. So every show has to have a quota of non-white people? Are you freaking kidding me?"

 

Not only are both Something Rotten and Gentleman's Guide farcical and fantastical, thus hardly requiring strict adherence to historical racial population ratios, but there were plenty of not-white-people in Elizabethan England, so shut your piehole.

 

"

Nothing (or very little) is required in theater. But a little verisimilitude never hurt anything. It would be weird to see a farce set in 17th century China with a lot of non-Chinese actors. And what's "plenty"? It was a very small number, compared to the number of whites.

 

Just because Broadway is historically (and unjustly) white, it doesn't mean we have to swing in the extreme opposite direction and start filling every cast with non-white actors, just because.

 

Oh no, Old Times and Sylvia and China Doll and Therese Raquin have no people of color! Quick, someone add a few!

Updated On: 10/17/15 at 07:31 PM

[javero]

Posted: 10/17/15 at 7:33pm

"If shows such as Hamilton, In the Heights, andAllegiance continue to written and produced, I can almost guarantee that the number of white audience members will decrease and the audience will diversify, and that is such a great thing."

 

I agree and suggest that it's not a zero sum game.  It's a win-win for theatre in general.  I'm heartened by the success stories of some community theater groups to attract a diverse roster of writers,directors, and actors, which FindingNamo alluded to.   Apart from a few warts, I find Broadway to be a helluva lot more inclusive within than other sectors of society without.  And yes, I'm looking at you Silicon Valley.  Context is everything so please read on at the link below whenever you can spare the time.  

 

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2015/05/asians-tech-glass-ceiling-hidden-plain-sight-ascend-study

 

Finally, as a simple thought exercise, I implore each of you to replace the word racism with "hegemony" as you devise ways to move theatre forward in the US.  The aim here is not to re-write history but to move past the loaded word racism.  We are often not aware of the origins or nature of our biases or hangups.  Consequently, we become either defensive at the mere suggestion that our successes are due in any measure to birth-right or discouraged by the burden of always having to receive the nod of approval of the dominant group. 

[hork]

Posted: 10/17/15 at 7:36pm

FindingNamo said: "But 30 years ago two white children sang America, ergo... something or other.

 

I'm still not sure why you think a comment aimed at one little part of one particular post is meant as a sweeping thesis statement about the entire discussion.

[firebolts]

Posted: 10/17/15 at 7:43pm

@javero, thanks for that link - I will definitely be reading it later! 

Updated On: 10/17/15 at 07:43 PM

[hork]

Posted: 10/17/15 at 8:20pm

firebolts said: "hork said: "It was a very small number, compared to the number of whites."

 

 

 

I would love to know where you are pulling these numbers from. 

 

What numbers? "Very small" isn't a number.

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 10/17/15 at 8:56pm

hork said: Nothing (or very little) is required in theater. But a little verisimilitude never hurt anything. It would be weird to see a farce set in 17th century China with a lot of non-Chinese actors. And what's "plenty"? It was a very small number, compared to the number of whites.

Just because Broadway is historically (and unjustly) white, it doesn't mean we have to swing in the extreme opposite direction and start filling every cast with non-white actors, just because.

Oh no, Old Times and Sylvia and China Doll and Therese Raquin have no people of color! Quick, someone add a few!"

Yes, it would be weird to see a farce set in 17th century China with a lot of non-Chinese actors because Chinese actors get almost no stage presence and on top of that China was essentially marginalized and exoticised in the world market until relatively recently. Britain has nothing to lose by having an Elizabethan farce feature a variety of ethnicities because Britain spent centuries dominating the global culture. China hasn't. And why can't Old Times and Sylvia and China Doll have people of color? This isn't just "oh gosh let's toss in some quotas", it's representing and giving a chance to a great number of people who are being actively, persistently, and historically discriminated against. If you're against that, you're a tremendous bigot.

[Showface]

Posted: 10/17/15 at 9:11pm

"This isn't just "oh gosh let's toss in some quotas", it's representing and giving a chance to a great number of people who are being actively, persistently, and historically discriminated against. If you're against that, you're a tremendous bigot."

 

This. 

 

It always amazes me how when we have racially diverse casts, there is always always a select group of people who claim it to be PC or to fulfill some requirement, and never a testament to actual talent, because you know, POC apparently aren't as talented **eyeroll**

 

And please, enough of this "historically accurate" stuff. If it has nothing to do with race, then have a cast as colorful as the frickin rainbow. Hamilton has proven that it can work...people stop making excuses.

 

[javero]

Posted: 10/17/15 at 9:12pm

@firebolts, my big takeaway from the article was the following excerpt from one of the comments,

 

"Until recently if you were an Asian CEO of a startup about to go public, the investors often insisted that a white CEO be brought in to make the company more attractive to Wall Street. This is now decreasing."

 

That's consistent with my experience as an over-50 technologist, entrepreneur, patron of the arts, and ethnic minority in the US.  On the business side of things, it's not an unsurmountable obstacle but one nevertheless.  In addition to penning original works, minority players in theatre have to get and stay on the same hustle as indie recording artists to overcome barriers to entry.  Even if you're not a fan of rap or hip-hop music or Tyler Perry, you gotta admire the hustle.  And thanks to regional theatre & the Internet, Broadway is not the only game in town.

 

 

 

Updated On: 10/17/15 at 09:12 PM

[Showface]

Posted: 10/17/15 at 9:20pm

Updated On: 10/17/15 at 09:20 PM

[hork]

Posted: 10/18/15 at 12:59am

Charley Kringas Inc said:

Yes, it would be weird to see a farce set in 17th century China with a lot of non-Chinese actors because Chinese actors get almost no stage presence and on top of that China was essentially marginalized and exoticised in the world market until relatively recently. Britain has nothing to lose by having an Elizabethan farce feature a variety of ethnicities because Britain spent centuries dominating the global culture. China hasn't.

 

Chinese actors get a lot of stage presence in China. What you said is true, but my example would also be weird if none of it were true. It would be weird (actually, even weirder) if the production were in China. Not everything is about geo-political history.

 

And why can't Old Times and Sylvia and China Doll have people of color? This isn't just "oh gosh let's toss in some quotas", it's representing and giving a chance to a great number of people who are being actively, persistently, and historically discriminated against. If you're against that, you're a tremendous bigot.

 

I didn't say they couldn't. I'm just mocking your notion that every show must have non-white actors in it.

 

Showface said:  And please, enough of this "historically accurate" stuff. If it has nothing to do with race, then have a cast as colorful as the frickin rainbow. Hamilton has proven that it can work...people stop making excuses.

 

Hamilton works (presumably ... I haven't seen it yet) because it's making a specific point. But not every show wants to do that or should have to. What is wrong with historical accuracy, if that is what the creative team wants? Are Jane Austen movies culturally problematic because the cast is all white? Where do you draw the line? Do you draw the line? Would you have insisted they consider Chiwetel Ejiofor for the lead in The King's Speech? It had nothing to do with race, and he's a great actor, and it's all about talent, right?

Updated On: 10/18/15 at 12:59 AM

[Jane2]

Posted: 10/18/15 at 9:09am

" What is wrong with historical accuracy, if that is what the creative team wants? "

 

My point exactly. But you can't even have a discussion on that point here. What's their answer? The creative team is racist. I gave up on this thread. Waste of time and effort.

[Showface]

Posted: 10/18/15 at 9:21am

"Hamilton works (presumably ... I haven't seen it yet) because it's making a specific point. But not every show wants to do that or should have to. What is wrong with historical accuracy, if that is what the creative team wants? Are Jane Austen movies culturally problematic because the cast is all white? Where do you draw the line? Do you draw the line? Would you have insisted they consider Chiwetel Ejiofor for the lead in The King's Speech? It had nothing to do with race, and he's a great actor, and it's all about talent, right?"

 

The thing is, theatre has a certain freedom that film doesn't in my opinion, so yeah.

 

I'm not saying that you have too--I'm not forcing writers to include underhired and underrepresented actors in their plays or musicals (but again, what's wrong with simply writing out race...there is an eraser on a pencil and a backspace button on a keyboard--use it), but goodness, if race doesn't matter, or if a character's specific iconic look does not matter, why not? If we're going to keep getting revivals and plays about a time in our world that took place decades and centuries ago,and then race and appearance isn't even an issue, then just excluding a very talented group of actors does seem ridiculous. That's my point.

Updated On: 10/18/15 at 09:21 AM

[Jane2]

Posted: 10/18/15 at 9:24am

"if race doesn't matter, or if a character's specific iconic look does not matter, why not? If we're going to keep getting revivals and plays about a time in our world that took place decades and centuries ago,and then race and appearance isn't even an issue, then just excluding a very talented group of actors does seem ridiculous. That's my point."

 

I totally agree with what you just said. However, there are those on this board who will say race never matters.

Updated On: 10/18/15 at 09:24 AM

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 10/18/15 at 10:24am

Race always matters.  That's why Cornell West called his landmark book "Race Matters."

 

Since we're all theater lovers here with a passion that runs so deep that we put a lot of thought and intellectual curiosity into it, I know I don't have to remind any of us that plays take place in three parallel time periods. 

 

The action of the play takes place in the time it was set, but it also takes place in the time the playwright creates it, and ALSO takes place in the time it is performed.  

 

Fortunately, we've been moving into a time when an all female production of Julius Caesar, to pick one example, works perfectly well.  This way, the world of the theater is no longer exclusively the domain of white men. Playwrights are moving away from all white racial breakdowns and that's great for the health and vitality of the theatre. 

[Jane2]

Posted: 10/18/15 at 10:26am

I'm looking forward to Nathan Lane singing Old Man River.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 10/18/15 at 10:29am

Why?

[Jane2]

Posted: 10/18/15 at 10:36am

Get a sense of humor this morning. Namo, we're arguing two separate points. You're pointing out how colorblind casting can work, and I'm saying you're not a racist if you don't go that route in very specific cases.

[Showface]

Posted: 10/18/15 at 10:47am

I would like to clarify that when I say "race does not matter", I mean plays/musicals where the subject matter is not dealing with race or racism--and there are a lot of plays/musicals that don't deal with that subject.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 10/18/15 at 10:49am

I meant it like Why? would you want to hear that, in the same way I would write Why would you like to hear Kim Kardashian's thoughts on the use of drones in Syria?  with a sense of humor.

 

Also, I don't think I am arguing.  I'm just stating my understanding of these issues, not that they are correct, just what I believe. 

[Jane2]

Posted: 10/18/15 at 10:55am

We're all saying what we believe. That's what the board is for. Hence, we don't have to use the word arguing, we can just say stating what we believe. 

[Jane2]

Posted: 10/18/15 at 11:01am

And to wrap up - I agree that almost any role on broadway can be successfully played by any actor. I also believe that if the creative team opts differently , they do not deserve the serious accusation of racism to be hurled at them. 

 

That's it in a nutshell.

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 10/18/15 at 11:48am

hork said: "Chinese actors get a lot of stage presence in China. What you said is true, but my example would also be weird if none of it were true. It would be weird (actually, even weirder) if the production were in China. Not everything is about geo-political history.

I didn't say they couldn't. I'm just mocking your notion that every show must have non-white actors in it."

Racism is about geo-political history, that's the entire point. The point is that America has consistently put down non-whites for years and years, as has the English colonial culture, and since we, America, still do to a great extent dominate the global media landscape, it is our responsibility to make a conscious effort to involve other cultures and ethnicities. And should every show have non-white actors in it? I have no idea, but lots more should. The point is that people who are non-white are being actively discriminated against. The point is that we can't just keep somehow stumbling across the "best actor" who "happens" to be white. "Mocking your notion that every show must have non-white actors in it" ok archie bunker

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 10/18/15 at 11:59am

Or "We would have loved to have black actors in our tight, close-knit community theater group's (populated by folks who have been with the us for ten years or more) production of 'Hairspray', but no black people auditioned and we don't even know any black actors to invite."

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 10/18/15 at 12:36pm

Like the almost-entirely-white production of The Mikado that (thankfully) went up in flames here in Seattle, a city with an incredibly significant and active Asian population.

[hork]

Posted: 10/18/15 at 3:17pm

Charley Kringas Inc said: Racism is about geo-political history, that's the entire point.

 

That's a very narrow definition of racism, but that's beside the point.

 

"Not everything is about geopolitical history" ---> "Racism is about geopolitical racism." Are you saying everything is about racism? Verisimilitude is not racism. A Chinese production about 17th century China featuring a lot of white actors would be weird for reasons that have nothing to do with racism. That was my point. Although the point of that point is getting lost amid all this rhetoric.

 

The point is that America has consistently put down non-whites for years and years, as has the English colonial culture, 

 

But is that the fault of the creative team of Gentleman's Guide? Why should they have to atone for others' mistakes?

 

And should every show have non-white actors in it? I have no idea, but lots more should. 

 

I think there's only like nine current Broadway shows that have no non-white actors, and most of those are plays with very small casts. There aren't "lots" more shows in which to cast non-white actors.

 

The point is that people who are non-white are being actively discriminated against.

 

And my point is that casting a white actor as a white character is not discrimination, except in the most literal sense of the term (i.e. every casting choice is an act of discrimination).

 

The point is that we can't just keep somehow stumbling across the "best actor" who "happens" to be white.

 

So we should cast the second best actor, just because he's not white? I'm not getting into this again.

 

"And to wrap up - I agree that almost any role on broadway can be successfully played by any actor. I also believe that if the creative team opts differently , they do not deserve the serious accusation of racism to be hurled at them. 

 

That's it in a nutshell."

 

Indeed.