Diversity on Broadway- Page 10

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 10/15/15 at 12:41pm

You're about *thisclose* to the 'Why the black people gotta be lazy and shiftless??  Why can't they help themselves???'

 

White people love nothing more than a black celebrity who now has a modicum of privilege telling other people of color that all you have to do is go out and make the change yourself!  To get an idea of what POC are actually up against institutionally in this business, look no further than Matt Damon explaining to a black, female producer how diversity works (Hint: Only in the casting!  White people still gotta be in charge!)

[newintown]

Posted: 10/15/15 at 12:55pm

I suspect that RippedMan is not telling people of color to get out there and help themselves; it seems that he is telling white people to do more than just say that they care.

 

I remember listening to a conversation between two white guys - one was going on at length, quite passionately, about a variety of very legitimate social ills - racism, misogyny, income disparity - and how someone needs to do something. His friend said, "have you considered doing volunteer work with a social services nonprofit?" The first guy rather defensively replied, "I don't have time for that! I'm spending all my time just surviving in this city!"

 

He then went on to talk for an hour about the latest developments on The Walking Dead, Modern Family, House of Cards, Game of Thrones, How To Get Away With Murder, Scandal, and the detailed plots of The Hunger Games, The Hobbit, and the latest X-Men and Spider-Man movies.

 

And that's what some call irony.

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 10/15/15 at 1:00pm

newintown said: "I suspect that RippedMan is not telling people of color to get out there and help themselves; it seems that he is telling white people to do more than just say that they care.

 

If that's the case, then I agree with him.  

[newintown]

Posted: 10/15/15 at 1:03pm

It's an admirable point of view. We could all of us actually do more to improve the world.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 10/15/15 at 1:10pm

robbie, I think post 186 should help clear up what RippedMan meant. 

[Jane2]

Posted: 10/15/15 at 1:44pm

Sorry but I am not going to accept the calling out of racism in a case where a very specific role is cast in the "traditional " manner rather than anything but. And this goes for the case of a black or Asian character cast as white, also. Because someone wants a character portrayed the way it was written, or was historically correct, does not mean that someone hates people of other races.

 

 

 

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 10/15/15 at 1:48pm

That's great. 

[Jane2]

Posted: 10/15/15 at 2:00pm

sorry you feel that way. not sorry

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 10/15/15 at 2:04pm

That's great!

[VintageSnarker]

Posted: 10/15/15 at 4:45pm

"Here's my question, Vintage:  should two of the Asians have been given the parts if they were (far) inferior actors?  Getting the roles JUST because they are Asian doesn't quite seem right, either."

 

My issue was more about perpetuating negative stereotypes about Chinese people with Caucasian actors while also keeping the actual Asian actors in the background. It makes you feel invisible like actual Asian experience doesn't matter and the only thing that anyone sees is this horrible caricature. I think I was too shocked/I didn't realize how bad the yellow face would get until we were far into the process.

[Jane2]

Posted: 10/15/15 at 5:01pm

So almost everyone in the Broadway industry is racist, as it's usually traditional casting there.

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 10/15/15 at 5:22pm

I wish I could say I'll never come back to this thread, but I can't make a promise like that, but I DID want to come back and share this article, even though it's about hiring and journalism... and rephrasing how we talk about "diversity."

 

http://www.niemanlab.org/2015/10/tracie-powell-were-supposed-to-challenge-power-it-seems-like-weve-abdicated-that-to-social-media/

I was at ONA a couple of weeks ago, and I remember hearing an editor, a very high-profile editor, say he hires for “fit and personality.” Well, I think that’s part of the problem. These editors keep hiring people who quote-unquote “fit.” We need to start hiring some misfits so that they can bring a fresh perspective to our coverage.

That editor probably meant he wanted to hire people who got along with everybody else. We don’t have to like each other. We can value a difference of opinion; we can value differences and still enjoy working with each other, be respectful and professional in the workplace.

When editors say, you know, “I hire for fit,” they’re automatically sending a red flag to job candidates, particularly women and people of color, because we’ve never fit. I’ve worked in places where I was the only person of color. At that conference in Chicago, there were two people of color in that whole conference; I was the only black person. We’ve always stood out.

 

EDIT: Also: http://www.hesherman.com/2015/10/16/when-a-facebook-comment-says-more-than-a-long-blog-about-diversity/

Updated On: 10/16/15 at 05:22 PM

[firebolts]

Posted: 10/16/15 at 10:53pm

Though I have a lot to say about diversity and Broadway, I don't have the time to write a thorough response. Instead, I am going to copy and paste something that I read from Tumblr that I deeply agree with:

 

"Honestly though, I think this highlights a major problem with white people in the theatre community. There’s this enormous sense of entitlement. Since most of the existing canon and the field is tailored for white people, white people are used to getting their way all of the time and so when a good show comes along that’s written for people of color, white people just can’t stomach the idea that there’s something shiny that they can’t have and so they make excuses and disrespectfully appropriate the few works created with actors of color in mind.

 

The entire central plot of Once On This Island is that Ti Moune, because of her dark skin, can’t be with the light skin boy that she loves. It takes place in the Caribbean, the characters have names like 'Asaka' And 'Agwe,' they sing calypso music and speak with accents, there’s a whole song about colonialism and the dynamics of colorism and classism, yet a version of the show exists where all references to race are removed so white people can do the show. It’s a very clear cut example of appropriation. White people like the superficial aspects of the show (the music, the story) but it’s fundamentally unsuitable for an all white cast, so instead of respectfully understanding that this isn’t their place, they sanitize the show to make it palatable. It’s borderline disrespectful. 

 

The Wiz never specifically mentions the race of its characters, but everything about the show indicates that it needs an all black cast. The characters speak ebonics. The score features r&b, gospel, and soul. The entire original Broadway cast and the entire cast of the film were black. The entire concept of the show is centered around the idea that it’s an African American retelling of The Wiz. And yet white people do the show all the time, and in the process, miss the entire point. The Wiz was born out of the idea that for children, even broad fantasy that was supposed to be universal and not bound by the conventions of the real world, was still predominately white, so the point of The Wiz was to express the universality of these stories by taking a story usually thought of as being a white story (The Wizard of Oz) and giving it new context to make it a parable for black audiences. A white production of The Wiz misses this entire point because a white production of The Wiz is unnecessary because there’s already The Wizard of Oz.

 

Even Dreamgirls, which is in no uncertain terms about the struggles of African-Americans in the music industry, is often appropriated and whitewashed. Every white person who can kind of belt thinks the world needs them to sing something from Dreamgirls. This is especially ironic because a major plot point in Dreamgirls is that black culture creates beautiful music that white culture appropriates and sanitizes to its detriment. I don’t understand how anyone who genuinely watches Dreamgirls would think it’s okay for a white person to sing a song from the show when there’s literally a scene in the show where a white person steals one of their songs and it devastates the characters who originated it. For a white person to sing a song from Dreamgirls is to fundamentally misunderstand the entire point that the show itself makes.

 

I hear 'but the song doesn’t mention race there’s no reason a white person couldn’t sing it' and I hear 'I can’t understand the history of racism in the world that’s created a system where actors of color have been historically marginalized and I choose to ignore that due to the original context of this song it would be disrespectful and tone deaf of me to sing it because it’s pretty and I’m white so I deserve everything pretty.' I was in a class once where a white girl sang a song from In the Heights, and when she was done the teacher told her to find a different song because even if the song didn’t specifically mention race, everyone in the room still knew the context and knew she was too white to be singing it. No matter how good these songs are, you should in all good conscience know that it’s not your place to be singing them.

 

A white girl once said to me 'I can’t wait until the day when I just wake up black and I can sing all of these amazing songs' and if that’s not entitled tone deaf and insensitive I don’t know what is."

 

And someone else added:

 

"It does bear mentioning though that because the existing musical theater canon is so predominately white, people of color can’t appropriate songs or shows from white people. You can’t appropriate the dominant culture, you can only assimilate into it. I’ve heard people argue firsthand that it’s okay to cast a white girl as the Vietnamese Kim in Miss Saigon because Audra McDonald was cast as the white Carrie Pipperidge in Carousel. Number one, Carrie isn’t specifically a white character so already the analogy is flawed. But number two, there’s a major difference between the two because the only reason that Carousel is a 'white' show is because for so many years white people were the default for any show not specifically about race. Casting a person of color in a traditionally white role isn’t appropriating roles from white people, it’s normalizing the theatre to make it reflect real life where people of color actively exist and do things."

 

----

 

And briefly, my opinion:

 

Broadway NEEDS to be more diverse, and POC need to have unique, vibrant roles written for them, and not roles that are traditionally assigned to them because of stereotypes/history. I'm glad to see Allegiance coming to Broadway, but I'd much prefer to see a musical about an Asian (American) family that doesn't involve WWII/internment. POC deserve storylines/roles that are just as fleshed out and varied as the shows and roles that are written for white people. I was shocked that when Ruthie Ann Miles won her Tony, it was hardly discussed. The last Asian actress to win a Tony was Lea Salonga - 24 years ago. That is unbelievable. 

 

To quote Ruthie: "We have a lot of amazing, talented people who just don't have a platform [referencing to Asian American actors]. They don't have an opportunity. But they are working. They are going to class. They are hitting those auditions and doing readings, and they are striving and working so hard. But there's no place to practice, which is on the stage. There aren't enough roles. There aren't enough opportunities." (Great interview: http://www.playbill.com/news/article/there-arent-enough-roles-says-tony-winner-ruthie-ann-miles-on-diversity-in-the-theatre-350838#sthash.jDxWUhEL.dpuf)

 

And also, as much as I love Rodgers & Hammerstein's/Cole Porter/etc. musicals, the racist tones in them always bothers and frustrate me.

Updated On: 10/16/15 at 10:53 PM

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 10/17/15 at 12:13am

Excellent condensation of the issue, it never fails to blow my mind how many people make the "well why can't a white person play [black character]" argument.

[hork]

Posted: 10/17/15 at 11:06am

Just when we thought we were done, someone introduces the first actual bit of racism into this thread.

 

"No, you can't sing that song! Bad white girl!"

 

Jesus, it's not like she was trying to mount an all-white production of In the Heights. She just wanted to sing a song from it for a class. Who does that harm?

[Showface]

Posted: 10/17/15 at 11:10am

"Honestly though, I think this highlights a major problem with white people in the theatre community. There’s this enormous sense of entitlement. Since most of the existing canon and the field is tailored for white people, white people are used to getting their way all of the time and so when a good show comes along that’s written for people of color, white people just can’t stomach the idea that there’s something shiny that they can’t have and so they make excuses and disrespectfully appropriate the few works created with actors of color in mind.

 

The entire central plot of Once On This Island is that Ti Moune, because of her dark skin, can’t be with the light skin boy that she loves. It takes place in the Caribbean, the characters have names like 'Asaka' And 'Agwe,' they sing calypso music and speak with accents, there’s a whole song about colonialism and the dynamics of colorism and classism, yet a version of the show exists where all references to race are removed so white people can do the show. It’s a very clear cut example of appropriation. White people like the superficial aspects of the show (the music, the story) but it’s fundamentally unsuitable for an all white cast, so instead of respectfully understanding that this isn’t their place, they sanitize the show to make it palatable. It’s borderline disrespectful. 

 

The Wiz never specifically mentions the race of its characters, but everything about the show indicates that it needs an all black cast. The characters speak ebonics. The score features r&b, gospel, and soul. The entire original Broadway cast and the entire cast of the film were black. The entire concept of the show is centered around the idea that it’s an African American retelling of The Wiz. And yet white people do the show all the time, and in the process, miss the entire point. The Wiz was born out of the idea that for children, even broad fantasy that was supposed to be universal and not bound by the conventions of the real world, was still predominately white, so the point of The Wiz was to express the universality of these stories by taking a story usually thought of as being a white story (The Wizard of Oz) and giving it new context to make it a parable for black audiences. A white production of The Wiz misses this entire point because a white production of The Wiz is unnecessary because there’s already The Wizard of Oz.

 

Even Dreamgirls, which is in no uncertain terms about the struggles of African-Americans in the music industry, is often appropriated and whitewashed. Every white person who can kind of belt thinks the world needs them to sing something from Dreamgirls. This is especially ironic because a major plot point in Dreamgirls is that black culture creates beautiful music that white culture appropriates and sanitizes to its detriment. I don’t understand how anyone who genuinely watches Dreamgirls would think it’s okay for a white person to sing a song from the show when there’s literally a scene in the show where a white person steals one of their songs and it devastates the characters who originated it. For a white person to sing a song from Dreamgirls is to fundamentally misunderstand the entire point that the show itself makes.

 

I hear 'but the song doesn’t mention race there’s no reason a white person couldn’t sing it' and I hear 'I can’t understand the history of racism in the world that’s created a system where actors of color have been historically marginalized and I choose to ignore that due to the original context of this song it would be disrespectful and tone deaf of me to sing it because it’s pretty and I’m white so I deserve everything pretty.' I was in a class once where a white girl sang a song from In the Heights, and when she was done the teacher told her to find a different song because even if the song didn’t specifically mention race, everyone in the room still knew the context and knew she was too white to be singing it. No matter how good these songs are, you should in all good conscience know that it’s not your place to be singing them.

 

A white girl once said to me 'I can’t wait until the day when I just wake up black and I can sing all of these amazing songs' and if that’s not entitled tone deaf and insensitive I don’t know what is."

"

 

I follow this blog on Tumblr, and I recommend that everyone follow it. She really does break down this whole diversity thing on her blog beautifully.

[dramamama611]

Posted: 10/17/15 at 11:32am

VintageSnarker said: ""Here's my question, Vintage:  should two of the Asians have been given the parts if they were (far) inferior actors?  Getting the roles JUST because they are Asian doesn't quite seem right, either."

 

 

 

My issue was more about perpetuating negative stereotypes about Chinese people with Caucasian actors while also keeping the actual Asian actors in the background. It makes you feel invisible like actual Asian experience doesn't matter and the only thing that anyone sees is this horrible caricature. I think I was too shocked/I didn't realize how bad the yellow face would get until we were far into the process.

 

"

 

I hear you, and I wasn't trying to call you out, just the general idea at the school level.  And the idea of yellowface is as horrifying to me as blackface.

 

There was a story here in Massachusetts a year or two ago about a high school production of Thoroughly Modern Millie.  An Asian actor decided  not to do the show (and he'd been an active member of the production for years) but cause he couldn't imagine having his Asian grandparents sitting through the Asian character scenes comfortably.

 

These kind things can't and won't change overnight.  

 

[tmcgriff]

Posted: 10/17/15 at 12:16pm

hork said: "Just when we thought we were done, someone introduces the first actual bit of racism into this thread.

 

"No, you can't sing that song! Bad white girl!"

 

Jesus, it's not like she was trying to mount an all-white production of In the Heights. She just wanted to sing a song from it for a class. Who does that harm?

"

Racism against white people is not an actual thing. And even if it were, that would be far from the first racist thing said in this thread.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 10/17/15 at 12:38pm

You're still fairly new to Broadway World, so you might not have realized it, but the real victims of institutionalized American racism are white people.  

[hork]

Posted: 10/17/15 at 3:34pm

tmcgriff said: Racism against white people is not an actual thing.

 

Yeah, everyone in the world adores white people. We're universally beloved.

 

And even if it were, that would be far from the first racist thing said in this thread."

 

It really is. Nobody here has disparaged other races or made blanket generalizations about them. Not like "it’s pretty and I’m white so I deserve everything pretty."

[VintageSnarker]

Posted: 10/17/15 at 3:50pm

"Every white person who can kind of belt thinks the world needs them to sing something from Dreamgirls."

 

For real though. I love the X Factor UK but they need to stop with this. Also "A Change Is Gonna Come." 

 

I was at Dames at Sea last night which is the first show I've seen since reading this thread. I actually don't pay too much attention to the demographics of the audience but I looked around last night and realized that yes, the audience was predominantly white and mostly older (though that could just be the Dames at Sea crowd). There were probably less than 5 (being generous) people of Asian descent in the crowd. And even though I love Thoroughly Modern Millie and The Drowsy Chaperone, I breathed a little sigh of relief that the Singapore Sue number was not offensive.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 10/17/15 at 4:11pm

hork cannot possibly be a real person.

[Showface]

Posted: 10/17/15 at 4:22pm

This conversation took place a few months ago, but with Dave19

 

Anyway, hork, what "reverse racism" has taken place that you feel so oppressed and victimized from??

Updated On: 10/17/15 at 04:22 PM

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 10/17/15 at 4:25pm

So once again on Broadwayworld there's a gigantic breakdown in the understanding of the enormous, systemic, completely institutionalized structure of racism that impacts every aspect of American culture, (including the Great WHITE Way), that has been baked into our national DNA since the founding of the country built on the back of "imported" "workers" (the latest pleasant way to disregard the reality of slavery) vs individual anecdotal stories and hypotheticals about real or imagined aggrieved white individuals.

 

How does that song go?  "When will we ever learn?  When will we evvvvver learn?"

[hork]

Posted: 10/17/15 at 4:26pm

Phyllis Rogers Stone said: "hork cannot possibly be a real person.

 

Because I make too much sense? I can see why that would throw you off on here.