GAG ME WITH A RAZOR: Why I Hate Tim Burton's SWEENEY TODD- Page 5

[Oliver Brownlow]

Posted: 1/29/08 at 4:45am

Borstalboy has replied:

"This thread is uproarious."

"In related news, Stephanie Zacharek from Salon.com panned SWEENEY pretty roundly and got a death threat from musical theater fans. A death threat!"

"You know it was someone from this board so the jig is up: Which one of you bitches was it?"

Don't keep us in suspense, man! Post a link to the review!

[nobodyhome]

Posted: 1/29/08 at 5:39am

Oliver Brownlow wrote:

Are you sure? I was unable to find it in my 124-minute commercially-produced VHS copy. There are just two scenes in which Madame Armfeldt converses with Fredericka while "Liaisons" plays in the underscoring. The first is after "You Must Meet My Wife," which is where the song falls in the stage show. After a Mme Armfeldt tells a brief anecdote, Fredericka asks her if she thinks the night will smile tonight, and when the camera returns to her a second later, she's asleep. It does look as if the song may have been removed. The other scene is after "Send in the Clowns," where she tells the story of the count who gave her a wooden ring. It isn't on the original soundtrack album I have, either, though there's plenty of room to have included it. So is it possible you have a longer, restored version of the film, on DVD perhaps? If this is true, it is happy news indeed. Anything else put back in that version, like "In Praise of Women"?
_________

Reply:

I didn't mean to suggest that it was in any available version or ever shown in theatres. I saw the movie on the day it was originally released in New York, and it wasn't ever in the movie as released. It was filmed and cut before release. I doubt that it could be restored as it seems there's not even a good print of the movie as it was released. I don't know if there's even a copy of the footage anymore.

I suppose I shouldn't say definitively that it was filmed since I've never seen it and I'm not sure if I've ever read in any reliable source that it was filmed. I've just been told that it was filmed. And, yes, it would have been in the scene where she falls asleep after telling Fredericka that anecdote.

I can, however, say absolutely definitively that it was recorded, in a shortened and revised version.

I was also told by Sondheim many years ago that "The Miller's Son" was filmed. I do wonder, though, if he meant "Liaisons," as I've never heard anywhere else that "The Miller's Son" was filmed. And if they'd intended to film it, I'd think they'd have cast someone who could sing as Petra. (I believe that even the few lines of singing that remain to Lesley Dunlop's Petra were dubbed by Elaine Tomkinson, though I'm not positive.)

[EdmundOG]

Posted: 1/29/08 at 9:20am

Meh. Your argument seems to amount to "This movie is horrible and evil and wrong because it makes cuts and looks different than I wanted". Your good points (and you do have some) are swallowed up in the vitriol that comprises the rest of your post.
Oh, and Sweeney is not an operetta. Maybe someone mentioned that already, (I had to skip the last couple pages) but I just had to bring it up.

[Borstalboy]

Posted: 1/29/08 at 9:42am

Okay....here ya go. But I'll warn you: She doesn't like Sondheim, so keep those death threats in check.

(For the record, I love Zacharek but dont' agree with a word she wrote here)

Sweeney Todd by Stephanie Zacharek

Updated On: 1/29/08 at 09:42 AM

[roquat]

Posted: 1/29/08 at 12:55pm

EdmundOG--Sondheim himself said that SWEENEY, if not an operetta, was extremely close to one (he was commenting against the heavy, ponderous "grand opera" tone some productions take).

And Borstalboy--I don't know if I can keep the death threats in check. Forget the movie--Zacharek's dismissal of Sondheim's work in general is offensive, and comparable to the grumblings of all those old fogeys who want Richard Rodgers to rise from the dead and take over the musical world again. Zacharek SHOULD expect to be baked into a meat pie.

[truman]

Posted: 1/29/08 at 5:53pm

I agree about the skunk hair (wth?), and about how horribly both Depp and Carter sang. What really made me mad was how they cast a young boy as Toby, instead of leaving his character as a mentally challanged adult.

I disliked it a lot; espcially Depp and Carter. Their singing was atrocious, especially during "A Little Priest." UGH.
Updated On: 1/29/08 at 05:53 PM

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 1/29/08 at 6:00pm

Johanna isn't manic, she's just in a hurry.

Sadly, I can't find the old thread. I love discussing that though if someone wants to make a new one (or find the old one, I may just suck at searching).

[Oliver Brownlow]

Posted: 1/29/08 at 8:44pm

PalJoey has replied:

"I don't know about Peter Flichia but I would hate to have lunch with you."

"Your opinions are so breathless, overdramatic and humorless that I think you would be a pompous, self-important bore over lunch."

I didn't invite you to lunch.

"Was #24 supposed to be funny?"

Funny? Of course not. As you know I am not only breathless and overdramatic, but also humorless. I literally believe that Burton's SWEENEY is a widespread, fatal infectious disease like cholera or the bubonic plague.

[Oliver Brownlow]

Posted: 1/30/08 at 3:06am

uncageg has replied:

"Do you mean Peter Filichia from Theatermania?"

Yes.

"I was not crazy about the movie, but I really couldn't find that much wrong with it!"

"And bloodless?"

bloodless: "lacking in vigor; listless"

[Oliver Brownlow]

Posted: 1/30/08 at 4:21pm

thenextfiyero has replied:

"Yea if you think I'm going to read that whole post you must be crazy."

I never thought you would read it.

"By the way the movie was astounding and nothing short of that."

I agree that the movie was astounding.

[Magical_Ms._Mistoffeles_72]

Posted: 1/30/08 at 8:48pm

Oliver,
what about the people who would never in thier lives see a musical who fall in love with musical theatre because of this film?

[Oliver Brownlow]

Posted: 1/31/08 at 12:31am

Not Barker, Todd. has replied:

"I do beleive that Burton actually put more music back IN to the movie once he was at the helm."

Scarywarhol has replied:

"Yes, he re-inserted LOTS of the score. It's amazing how much made it."

All right, shatter me. Which five songs would have comprised the entire musical score of the Sam Mendes version, and for which others must I get down on my knees and thank Mr. Burton because he deigned to put them back in?

[oxdreaminxo]

Posted: 1/31/08 at 12:54am

While I mostly disagree with Oliver's post, everyone is entitled to their own opinions :]


And this: "10. I hate this movie because Johnny Depp's hair looks [expletive deleted] ridiculous. He looks like the late notorious effeminate homosexual Quentin Crisp in drag as the Bride of Frankenstein, or possibly like the lead singer in a punk band. And how exactly does he maintain that hairstyle at sea?" made me laugh really hard. I happen to like the hair, but I do agree with your statement xD.

Updated On: 1/31/08 at 12:54 AM

[roquat]

Posted: 1/31/08 at 2:16am

"Oliver,
what about the people who would never in thier lives see a musical who fall in love with musical theatre because of this film?"

Name one.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 1/31/08 at 11:42am

If you're a fan of the movie, PM me.

[jpbran]

Posted: 1/31/08 at 12:01pm

Well, for what it's worth-- minor quibbles aside, I loved it.

[Magical_Ms._Mistoffeles_72]

Posted: 1/31/08 at 12:15pm

roquat:

my little cousin, brandon. He is 11. I took him to see it
he is now asking me for musical soundtracks and joining the kids theatre company I used to be part of

yes, I agree the movie left alot of things out, but for some kids its the start of a beautiful thing.

I recently found my copy of the angela lansbury version, he has watched that with me as well and loves it. But if I had not taken him to the movie with me, he would never have given it the time of day.

[jpbran]

Posted: 1/31/08 at 12:24pm

Nice anecdote... BUT, you took an 11-year old to see Sweeney Todd???

[EdmundOG]

Posted: 1/31/08 at 1:48pm

Roquat - Great name. But I take issue with you. An operetta is necessarily light in tone. It's part of the definition. Sondheim was probably referencing the more humorous aspects of the script, but the work itself is not operetta. It's more a mix of operetta and Grand Guignol.

If you knew that and were referencing the same, I'm sorry, but I've long been annoyed by people thinking operetta means 'almost all singing with some talking'. Frankly, it's an irritating term which is damned tricky in its execution, and since all operettas can justifiably be called musicals, we should just eliminate the blasted term from our vocabulary.

-EdmundOG, who complained about this for 4 pages for a Musical Theatre class and got an A-.

[Magical_Ms._Mistoffeles_72]

Posted: 1/31/08 at 3:34pm

jpbran
yes I did
I saw it for the first time when I was like 4
we're a weird bunch :)

he loved it, there havent been nightmares

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 1/31/08 at 5:30pm

I have a friend who saw the Sweeney movie, and afterwards asked me for some songs from the cast recording. He loves it, now.

Updated On: 1/31/08 at 05:30 PM

[artscallion]

Posted: 1/31/08 at 5:44pm

The girl who sits behind me at work, whose musical experience had been limited to Christina Aguilera (sp), Robbie WIlliams and the like, saw Sweeney because she's a Depp fan. Now her facebook status is, "Fannie Fakename is loving the Sweeney Soundtrack!"
She keeps asking me questions about the stage version, where it might be playing and if I know any other plays like it.

[Oliver Brownlow]

Posted: 2/3/08 at 8:12pm

EdmundOG has replied:

"Meh. Your argument seems to amount to 'This movie is horrible and evil and wrong because it makes cuts and looks different than I wanted'."

That's a very superficial summary of my objections, but it's true that I think the movie is horrible and evil and wrong. Available on DVD and DVD HD at your favorite video retailer on April 1st -- a singularly appropriate date!

"Your good points (and you do have some) are swallowed up in the vitriol that comprises the rest of your post. Oh, and Sweeney is not an operetta."

"It's more a mix of operetta and Grand Guignol."

Sondheim has repeatedly called SWEENEY TODD a "black operetta," or occasionally, a "dark operetta." I feel the term "black operetta" creates confusion because the term "black" is also used to mean "African-American," though buried in the term is also the suggestion of a "black comic" opera (since the terms "operetta" and "comic opera" are often used interchangeably), which may be part of what Sondheim is getting at in coining the term. I think SWEENEY is more accurately described as a "horror operetta." I don't think it's wrong, though, to say that it's a mixture of Grand Guignol and operetta, and I would equally accept the term "Grand Guignol operetta." So we may be arguing more about what can be included in the operetta category than about what SWEENEY is.

I basically agree with the thesis put forward by Gerald Bordman in AMERICAN OPERETTA: FROM H.M.S. PINAFORE TO SWEENEY TODD that a direct line of descent can be traced from European (especially Viennese and English) operetta (Strauss, Offenbach, Gilbert & Sullivan) to early American operettas in the European style (Romberg, Friml, Herbert), to more Americanized operettas like SHOW BOAT and the Gilbert & Sullivan-inspired Gershwin operettas (OF THEE I SING, LET 'EM EAT CAKE, STRIKE UP THE BAND), to the modern musical play as invented by Rodgers & Hammerstein (who spent most of their collaboration trying to perfect the streamlined American operetta pioneered by Kern & Hammerstein in SHOW BOAT) and continued by Lerner & Loewe, Bock & Harnick, Bernstein, Sondheim, and many others, and that therefore it simply makes more sense to call these works operetta than anything else, despite their being persistently marketed under the labels "musical comedy," "musical," and "musical play" to differentiate them from older-style operettas. In some cases that line of descent is extremely distinct: Victor Herbert deeply influenced Jerome Kern who in turn deeply influenced Richard Rodgers (this is not mere speculation, it's what the composers themselves said), and there's a stylistic similarity between these three, though the style also develops from one to the other; meanwhile, Oscar Hammerstein was writing lyrics for the early-American, European-style operettas of Romberg and others, later working with Kern and Rodgers, and (not insignificantly) becoming Sondheim's mentor. But even if that weren't the case, the stylistic similarities between traditional operettas and Sondheim's A LITTLE NIGHT MUSIC and SWEENEY TODD are too obvious to ignore.

Nobody's saying these works are Viennese operettas or early American operettas in the European style (which is all most people think about when they hear the word "operetta," a fact Sondheim felt compelled to acknowledge in one interview after calling Sweeney a "black operetta," saying the trouble with the word is that "it sounds like it's going to be silly costumes and Champagne waltzes," but significantly, still not withdrawing the term as a description of SWEENEY). They are late 20th century (or broadly speaking, "modern") American operettas. Remember, operetta in the original Italian literally just means "little opera." It doesn't imply the specific style of any particular type of operetta so much as just "something less than opera" (i.e., shorter, not through-composed, comedic instead of tragic). The tragic elements in SWEENEY may be the strongest objection to calling it an operetta, but the Grand Guignol style (with much of the horror played for laughs and gross-out humor) diminishes any claim it may have to being viewed as a truly classical tragedy. It remains most essentially a black comedy (according to wikipedia's entry on the genre, "notable directors of black comedy films include ... Tim Burton ...."), even retaining the superficial form of a comedy in that the young lovers (who are present for the final tableau in the stage version) survive the mayhem and will presumably be married. In a real tragedy they would also have been killed. And such features as Johanna's super-high soprano trills, the complex counterpoint of the quartets and chorus numbers, the sweeping Waltz melody of "A Little Priest," and the parody of grand opera excesses in the Pirelli "Contest" scene are dead giveaways.

If you look at SWEENEY TODD not just in the context of the story of the development of American musical theatre as it is often told as beginning with THE BLACK CROOK in 1866 and changing utterly like a caterpillar into a brand-new, never-before-seen-on-a-public-stage species of butterfly with the opening of OKLAHOMA! on March 31, 1943, but rather in the context of the whole history of musical theatre from the invention of opera by the Camerata in Italy around 1600 as an attempt to re-create ancient Greek tragedy, and the subsequent development of operetta forms and styles like opera buffa, opera bouffe, opera comique, comic opera, light opera, English ballad opera and comic opera, German singspiel, Viennese Waltz-operetta, etc. down to present-day musical theatre forms, it's pretty much impossible not to see SWEENEY TODD as a modern expression of the operetta tradition.   Now, I do think it's arguable that the mutilated version of SWEENEY TODD presented in Tim Burton's film to a large degree omits precisely those features which make the work an operetta, and that the simplified, dumbed-down fragments that remain don't so much constitute a horror operetta as a musical horror.

But all of this tedious digression has only delayed us from discussing the one truly important topic you brought up in your post, MY GOOD POINTS! Will you not free these lovely pearls from the oyster-like prison of my vitriol so that they can be enjoyed by all?

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 2/3/08 at 8:23pm

Er... minus that D6 (I think?) in the Ballad, Johanna's not that high of a role. In fact, for most sopranos, her "money notes" during Green Finch lie in the passagio range.

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 2/3/08 at 8:47pm

But all of this tedious digression has only delayed us from discussing the one truly important topic you brought up in your post, MY GOOD POINTS! Will you not free these lovely pearls from the oyster-like prison of my vitriol so that they can be enjoyed by all?

OK, I've decided -- you can't be real.