Gender Based Awards?- Page 2

[sabrelady]

Posted: 4/26/18 at 11:38am

Tag said: "They haven't really released all the details yet, but performance categories are going from the (separate gendered) 5 nominees per category, to 8 nominees in a combined category (ie. outstanding lead performance in a musical). I question whether that means for example, 7 men could be nominated against 1 women, or something like that. It seems like a clustef*ck waiting to happen."

Considering they have had 2 years I believe to examine and come up w this new system, I agree, the lack of details is frustrating . 

A Dora award is a nice thing to get in TO but financially it means very little either to the performer or the producers. ( shows have already closed or moved on to the next tour stop)

In the commercial world of Bway/O-Bway/West End  awards are very important for producers as they are used for promotional purposes big time. ( and we all know a Tony winning bump can save a show on the otherwise edge). And the ego-boo of winning a big time award helps the performer too. ( tho I still love Lupone's comment " the base of the Tony is plastic"

Will be watching this w great interest to see how it plays out here in TO and any ripples it has further afield.

 

[darquegk]

Posted: 4/26/18 at 12:20pm

I could be entirely wrong, so forgive me if I speak out of line, but according to a percussionist I know who played with Newell, Newell still identifies as a gay man, but performs in a female-identified, gender-non-conforming persona.

[Dancingthrulife2]

Posted: 4/26/18 at 12:38pm

Remember gender and sex are too completely different concepts. It would be reasonable if performers are divided by birth sex when being considered for awards.

[SomethingPeculiar]

Posted: 4/26/18 at 1:25pm

One way of fast-tracking this: The Oscars have to start it, and everyone else will 100% follow suit.

[ScottyDoesn'tKnow2]

Posted: 4/26/18 at 1:44pm

Dancingthrulife2 said: "Remember gender and sex are too completely different concepts. It would be reasonable if performers are divided by birth sex when being considered for awards."

By "birth sex" I am assuming you mean the sex they were assigned at birth. My question is "why?". If say a Trans actor identifies and expresses themselves as the sex that they were not assigned at birth and uses the pronouns that go with that gender/sex, why do they have to put in a gendered category that is not how they identify as? This isn't sport (though that's a whole other topic that is usually debated by people who don't read up on it) and I don't see the harm in say putting a trans woman in Best Actress and a trans man in Best Actor. Statistically-speaking, I don't know how much that would occur anyway.

Updated On: 4/26/18 at 01:44 PM

[Elfuhbuh]

Posted: 4/26/18 at 2:51pm

Yeah, most trans people are trying to distance themselves from their birth sex/gender. I don’t think a trans woman would appreciate having to compete for “Best Actor” just because she was porn with a penis.

[JudyDenmark]

Posted: 4/26/18 at 3:34pm

Call me crazy, but gender nonconforming people are such a tiny percentage of the population that I think it's a little nutty to disrupt something straightforward like this to cater to such a small group. I think trans actors or actresses should simply be nominated in the category with which they identify. And if someone's gender nonconforming, hopefully they'd be willing to petition to be considered in one category or the other, maybe depending on the role they're playing. (And if it turns out that a gender fluid actor is playing a truly gender fluid role... then I don't know. We'll cross that bridge. But that's not the case >99.9 of the time.)

The animal kingdom is divided into males and females. This is biology 101. There are definitely exceptions in certain species, but they're few and far between. As humans, where it's not so straightforward because social gender constructs become involved... I still believe that the majority of people mentally fall into the "I am more male / I am more female" camp. I'm not sure I understand why that's a bad thing. (The "bad thing" is creating expectations for what it means to be male or female, but that has nothing to do with awards show categories.)

Doing away with awards altogether and just giving everyone a trophy feels like that South Park episode where instead of a Christmas pageant, they ended up doing a modern dance performance to Phillip Glass in grey unitards, because everyone was so offended by everything.

I think it's important above anything to be kind and respectful to others, and people should feel free and safe to live their lives however makes them the happiest. But we don't need to disrupt the entire system to cater to a fractional group of people. It's ok to live with things not being perfect. Like, I'm Jewish and it would be laughable to suggest that Hanukkah should have equal representation as Christmas in December, or worse, that we should just do away with holiday celebrations altogether because someone might be offended. Jews are a very small percentage of the population, and it's nice when you see a menorah here and there, but it would be ridiculous of me to be offended that I wasn't being properly catered to and represented when the vast majority of this country celebrates Christmas. The vast majority of the human population identifies either as male or female, wherever they fall on the spectrum of masculinity or femininity. That's just reality. 

[newintown]

Posted: 4/26/18 at 4:05pm

If the day comes when there are sufficient non-binary performers AND roles in movies and the theatre, why not create such an award then? And why not have awards for cis roles/performers as well?

Seems an easy enough solution; as it is now, there certainly doesn't seem to be a visible pool of non-binary performers or roles.

Re: Alex Newell - when I saw the show, is bio(which is the performer's responsibility) identified him several times as "he." (As opposed to bios for, say, Taylor Mac or Justin Vivian Bond.)

Updated On: 4/26/18 at 04:05 PM

[ScottyDoesn'tKnow2]

Posted: 4/26/18 at 4:33pm

Here is a pretty thorough article that addresses some of the issues here:

https://www.refinery29.com/2017/11/180832/acting-awards-show-categories-gender-neutral?bucketed=false&bucketing_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

It first talks about the fact that the MTV Movie awards did away with a gendered acting category and then talks about Asia Kate Dillon's experience in submitting for the Emmys as a gender non-conforming actor. Dillon asked the Television Academy where they should submit for their role in the show Billions and was pleased with the Emmys' response telling Dillon to submit for any acting category they felt comfortable in.

It also has points and counterpoints and some alternative solutions to this problem. I think it was a pretty fair article that allowed both sides to speak.

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 4/26/18 at 4:38pm

The Jeff Awards in Chicago just went gender neutral.

I understand the reasoning behind eliminating gender-based categories - trying to avoid “forcing” someone into a gender identity, the needlessness of separating men and women in the first place - but the way I feel about “best actor” and “best actress” is the same way I feel about the men’s bathroom and the women’s bathroom: I don’t care which one you use, but just pick one.

[ScottyDoesn'tKnow2]

Posted: 4/26/18 at 4:46pm

Do we really want to talk about bathrooms here? That's a pretty loaded topic.

[haterobics]

Posted: 4/26/18 at 6:36pm

raddersons said: "Alex Newell's performance means it's already happening - best start the discussion now."

How so? I don't recall any debate when Mark Rylance was nominated in a make category for playing Olivia in Twelfth Night. And Newell uses male pronouns on his own website and such, so it's not like he's identifying as non-binary or anything. He just wanted to play that role.

[fashionguru_23]

Posted: 4/26/18 at 10:36pm

To respond to a previous post, why can't at award season, we just say if you are an actor, submit yourself for whatever category you see fit. The level (supporting vs. leading) would be determined by the billing. All the TONY meeting announcement would need to say is, "(insert name here) is being considered for best leading performance.

[gypsy101]

Posted: 4/26/18 at 10:42pm

very odd that wikipedia lists his name as Alexandra which is definitely a woman’s name

leading vs supporting isn’t always accurate when it comes to billing, hence why actors are often petitioned to be in the opposite category

[ScottyDoesn'tKnow2]

Posted: 4/27/18 at 12:12am

I learned on this forum a long time ago that the whole featured/lead dichotomy was originally created to ensure that the really famous actors didn't compete against less famous or non-famous yet actors. Like a lesser known actor who may be deserving of an award wouldn't have to compete against the likes of Ethel Merman/Alfred Drake/Mary Martin even if that lesser known actor was in a leading role. That's why the whole above the title rule is still in place as a holdover from that. Size of role obviously usually correlates with how famous one is, but not always. Now it seems featured is just synonymous with supporting and matches Oscars.

Updated On: 4/27/18 at 12:12 AM

[haterobics]

Posted: 4/27/18 at 12:23am

Elfuhbuh said: "I don’t think a trans woman would appreciate having to compete for “Best Actor” just because she was porn with a penis."

Then she shouldn't do porn?

[darquegk]

Posted: 4/27/18 at 8:37am

Alice Cooper named himself Alice despite identifying as male when that was a transgressive move: a man in the late 1960s with not only long hair but mascara and flamboyant stage presence was bound to raise some ire (which he pokes fun at in his song "Be My Lover".

Alex Newell's stage persona is, if not quite full drag, at least a gender-bending performance style. It makes perfect sense for his stage name to be female even as he identifies as male: it fits the persona.

[newintown]

Posted: 4/27/18 at 9:16am

This thread has inspired musings I could title "Gender Rebels I Have Known," which would include many obscure drag performers around the country, a passel of non-famous (self-described) butch dykes, Peggy Shaw, Ruby Rims, Candis Cayne, Justin Vivian Bond, Our Lady J, Taylor Mac, etc.

And one realization comes up - in private, at least, all of these people have definitely presented as one gender or the other; I have never met someone who struck me as a third (or other or inter) gender. Mac and Bond, off stage, are quite male (albeit fond of "traditionally" female accoutrement), Cayne and J are female, and so on.

No surprise - there is no species of mammal boasting true unisex members - only plants, fish, reptiles, etc. And although we can certainly respect any individual's wish to be named or seen as whatever they want, it may not actually be helpful - that is, playing the part you want to be may not actually equate being who you are, at the fundamental base of one's individual neuroses, which we humans possess in vastly greater quantities than any other species on our planet.

[raddersons]

Posted: 4/27/18 at 9:23am

haterobics said: "raddersons said: "Alex Newell's performance means it's already happening - best start the discussion now."

How so? I don't recall any debate when Mark Rylance was nominated in a make categoryfor playing Olivia in Twelfth Night. And Newell uses male pronouns on his own website and such, so it's not like he's identifying as non-binary or anything. He just wanted to play that role."

Yes, I got confused with the "Alexandra" on the wiki. 

[Luminaire2]

Posted: 4/27/18 at 12:03pm

Someone earlier suggested just changing the awards to the style of performance I.e. drama or comedy. I think that could be a solution to maintain the same number of categories without using gender.

The example they gave:

Best actor in a musical Comedy - “Bette Midler”
Best actor in a musical Drama - “Ben Platt”

Could this work?

[Tag]

Posted: 4/27/18 at 12:21pm

^In any given year there isn't enough from either genre to warrant enough nominations.  You'd also get into the Golden Globes scenario where films and actors get nominated in the wrong categories.

[darquegk]

Posted: 4/27/18 at 12:25pm

Newintown, your "gender rebels" post made me think of the curious case of Genesis P-Orridge, former leader of music project Throbbing Gristle. They identified not only as a third gender publicly and privately, but attempted to push the boundaries of human identity to the breaking point and merge into a single unified identity with their life partner, becoming what they called "a single pandrogynous being named Breyer P-Orridge."

[newintown]

Posted: 4/27/18 at 12:36pm

Wow, I hadn't thought of P-Orridge in years. I think that lower middle class English upbringing was significantly different from anything we Americans know. Didn't he try to sort of assume the mantle of Aleister Crowley?

[darquegk]

Posted: 4/27/18 at 3:09pm

To some extent, but all English performance artists and rock stars explicitly wanted to be Crowley.

I was never a fan of Throbbing Gristle, but I know P-Orridge mostly through the delightfully macabre story surrounding their/his wife's funeral. Allegedly, P-Orridge said that the two of them remained one single person, now operating both in the living and spiritual world, making the P-Orridge Pandrogyne Project the first conceptual art project existing in both this world and the next.

To commemorate this endeavor, the former Lady Jaye's tombstone reads "SHE IS STILL HERE/HE IS STILL HER."

[Falslanaland]

Posted: 4/27/18 at 5:06pm

Elfuhbuh said: "Yeah, most trans people are trying to distance themselves from their birth sex/gender. I don’t think a trans woman would appreciate having to compete for “Best Actor” just because she was porn with a penis. "

Not to divulge from the topic at hand, but this is one of the funniest mistypes I have seen on these forums. 

Back on topic, In probably 10-15 years the gender in category will become relevant due to the rise of transgender teens and young adults, There's not as big of a Friday of nonbinary and trans people  now, but there will be in a few years