General Discussion: Pippin's Choreography

[AndAllThatJazz22]

Posted: 11/14/08 at 5:06pm

I am going through a Fosse obsession. I love his dance moves but I must say,

Fosse and Pippin go together like Chocolate Ice Cream and an onion.

I keep watching the numbers and they are so cheesy, the dancing just does not fit. They tried to make the style fit the dancing but it just failed.

Your Thoughts:

Updated On: 11/14/08 at 05:06 PM

[dancnqn5]

Posted: 11/14/08 at 5:20pm

I think Fosse's choreography is what makes Pippin. Because frankly, I'm not a huge fan of the show sans his choreography. (I speak from experience on that one...)

[BrodyFosse123]

Posted: 11/14/08 at 5:41pm

Exactly. PIPPIN is Bob Fosse. Bob Fosse is PIPPIN. Both of these combined are what made PIPPIN the hit it was on Broadway. Any production (regional, et al) that has attempted to remove Bob Fosse's contribution to PIPPIN has failed miserably.

[TimesSquareRegular]

Posted: 11/14/08 at 5:45pm

There's always one or two ..... oh well, those of us who think the Fosse touch was definitely "magic to do" every step of the way in PIPPIN can shake our heads and be grateful that we get it and some don't.

[B3TA07]

Posted: 11/14/08 at 5:53pm

How elitist and rude.

[bk]

Posted: 11/14/08 at 6:29pm

It's only elitist and rude to a teenager :) Those who saw the show on Broadway understand what made it a hit - and what made it a hit was Fosse - some of the most brilliant direction and choreography ever put on the stage - a triumph of style over a not great show.
Updated On: 11/14/08 at 06:29 PM

[Scott Briefer]

Posted: 11/14/08 at 8:27pm

I suspect you're watching the video recording of the revival. If this is your source, I understand why you don't get Pippin = Fosse. For those of us who performed and / or saw the original Broadway production, we can't imagine a Pippin without Fosse's magic touch. The staging combined with the design was dazzling and what carried the show.

However, do know that Stephen Schwartz and Bob Fosse didn't see eye-to-eye on the original Pippin and Mr. Schwartz goes on record for preferring a very different production, more true to his music, that was produced in Australia.

Something to consider... Fosse requires a huge commitment on the part of the dancers and an extensive rehearsal process to get the intentions of his moves. The Fosse vocabulary is distinct, but to truly be "Fosse" it has to be danced by a passionate company lead by a brilliant choreographer.


Updated On: 11/14/08 at 08:27 PM

[AndAllThatJazz22]

Posted: 11/14/08 at 8:29pm

I think the Choreography was wonderful, but it did NOT mix well with Schwartz's music at all. I think steven tries, but it just didn't mesh at all.

Posted: 11/14/08 at 8:41pm

Wow really? While I think Pippin has Schwartz' most underated score (the way initial reviews completely and utterly dismissed it seemed to reek of some sort of snobbism, although I knwo that with both it and Chicago many critics were shocked with how LOUD Fosse amplified the music in the theatres, something I guess unheard of at the time), I definetly think Fosse makes the show.

In fact, some fun little community theatre productions aside, I wouldn't bother reviving it without the Fosse choreography, production. Much like Sweet Charity which was basically written aroudn his staging and choreography (and so suffers when other sattempt it) , Pippin was completely *re*configured around hsi staging. And it's amazing. Yeah in some ways I could see the cheesiness--it's *by far* his most dated show--that sorta early 70s hippy thing. Tony Walton and Patricia Z's designs are gorgeous,and hugely influential but also very dated (the fact that int he pics and videos so many of the men of the chorus have mustaches--common to 70s musicals of course--might help as well).

The filmed version, while great to have, also isn't really the best way to judge the original show, being cut up so much and not really filmed to the best advantage, though I think K Dolby did a good job of recreating Fosse's staging.

"I think the Choreography was wonderful, but it did NOT mix well with Schwartz's music at all. I think steven tries, but it just didn't mesh at all. "

Well he wasn't trying--rememebr Fosse had him barred form most rehearsals, he wrote the score for a very different, very pastoral, picaresque, optimistic show. Fosse used that material and created a show that seems to be about on some level a man contemplating suicide (that original ending)--I almsot see it as all these creepy people in his head as he tries to deal with life, at the end barely escaping suicide. However i think the contrast of material and staging for some reason works REALLY well. I know some critics felt it was Fosse just tarting up slight material, I completely disagree. I think the staging and dancing is *incredible*

[dramamama611]

Posted: 11/14/08 at 9:13pm

Wow....I love Pippin and I love Fosse choreography to go with it. I think his choreography improves the depth of the piece!

I would LOVE for this to be brought back professionally!

[B3TA07]

Posted: 11/14/08 at 9:21pm

"It's only elitist and rude to a teenager :)"

How condescending and still really rude.

You can say one had to see the production live to really grasp it, but it's still really elitist and rude to tell someone who wasn't alive then or hasn't the means to see it recreated in a production today that they're incapable of grasping it.

Bye bye condescending, elitist and rude person!

[AndAllThatJazz22]

Posted: 11/14/08 at 9:32pm

I don't accept your bashing. I have just voiced my opinion, which doesn't match yours and you bash me like this,yet I'M elitist and rude. Let's just be respectful to each others opinions and not be rude sir :)

Updated On: 11/14/08 at 09:32 PM

[B3TA07]

Posted: 11/14/08 at 9:33pm

I'm totally fine with you not accepting my "bashing" because it wasn't directed at you at all. LoL

[AndAllThatJazz22]

Posted: 11/14/08 at 9:35pm

LOL!!! I take that back.

I am so stupid sometimes, I did the same thing on a thread about Hair's set.

Sorry

Updated On: 11/14/08 at 09:35 PM

Posted: 11/14/08 at 9:53pm

This thread has very quickly, completely confused me.

[Bwayidiot]

Posted: 11/14/08 at 11:10pm

Having seen the original plus some community theater productions and the video, I have to say that the Broadway version was fantastic because of Fosse's contributions. Read the script - it is a really poor book as the original reviews stated. The music is OK but not memorable. It's an album I rarely play, but I an not a Swartz fan.
The success of the show was because of Fosse!

[BrodyFosse123]

Posted: 11/14/08 at 11:46pm

Incidentally (and as expected) I have on DVD Bob Fosse's full original edit/cut of the 1981 taping of PIPPIN.

Though Kathryn Doby recreated Bob Fosse's direction and choreography, Bob Fosse was heavily involved with the taping. So much so that he was sent the entire footage shot and he edited the thing his way. The taping's director, David Sheehan didn't care for Bob Fosse's ideas so he chose to edit the damn thing HIS way, which is why the taping has so many cuts/trims making it so unfaithful to the original stage production.

Bob Fosse's cut is the entire show which was indeed filmed. He also used a few different angles/cuts than the ones David Sheehan used.

And yes... true to form -- I had to boast.

[Lynnespock2]

Posted: 11/15/08 at 2:42pm

I saw the original production of Pippin and I must say that music and dance worked spectacularly. One of my fondest memories in the theater.

[evic]

Posted: 11/15/08 at 3:51pm

The original choreography is all about style and dark humor. War is a Science is hysterical. The women's choreography is much more technical balletically than the men's. There is meaning and subtext to every movement. It is brilliant,exciting...- the video does not give one any idea of the miniscule details=down to the last finger isolation. A crime it was edited so poorly. The orchestrations are thrilling when heard live.

[Lynnespock2]

Posted: 11/15/08 at 4:16pm

After posting to this thread, I realize I saw Pippin twice; once with Ben Vereen and once with Northern J. Calloway, who played David on Sesame Street. He was very talented and a fine singer/dancer. I couldn't remember his name and searched around for his real name and found he died at 41 of cancer.

Sad.

[Smaxie]

Posted: 11/15/08 at 4:34pm

>The orchestrations are thrilling when heard live.<

That's partly because Stephen Schwartz altered and diminished Ralph Burns' show orchestrations for the cast recording.

Posted: 11/16/08 at 5:35am

I believe the recording was also one of the first times a tcast album recorded the orchestral tracks first and then recorded the vocals to the taped tracks.

"Incidentally (and as expected) I have on DVD Bob Fosse's full original edit/cut of the 1981 taping of PIPPIN/"

Really? Yous hould put up the talking head and Miss the Man on youtube that's pretty odd though, the people in charge of the DVD jhave said in a few places that all the cut footage was destroyed. Hrmm

[BrodyFosse123]

Posted: 11/16/08 at 11:15am

Nope. It still survives and I confirmed it myself last night when I put both DVDs on to compare the differences.

First, and with all due respect to Bob Fosse -- David Sheehan's camera angle choices are far superior to Bob Fosse's. Fosse literally kept the camera mostly in close-ups whereas Sheehan showcased angles where you saw the other actors. You would think Fosse would do this instead, but nope. He ruined many a visual composition that Sheehan took into consideration. Thank you, Sheehan.

Yes, Pippin talking to the 'floating' (decapitated) head is there as is the longer dance sequence with Pippin and the ladies (there's an extended pas de deux between 2 women before the funky trio starts dancing) and Fastrada's (Chita Rivera) first number and scene is incredibly long -- this was enormously trimmed and cut for the taping/DVD.

Haven't watched more but will post other differences as I notice them. Would love to post them but my digital/video capture gadget died on me so until I get a replacement -- can't post any goodies on YouTube.com till then. Sorry.

[wildcat]

Posted: 11/16/08 at 4:49pm

I saw the Australian production in 1974 many times with Fosse's direction and choreography reproduced by Sammy Bayes and for all of the composer's pronouncements that this was finally "his" vision of the show the changes were minimal. The major difference being that "Kind of Woman" was sung straight by Catherine without the chorus girls. And the sex ballet was a little less graphic.

Posted: 11/17/08 at 7:58am

That's interesting re the Aussie production! I always assumed it was completely diff and had no remnants of Fosse's choreography. I do know the UK production was a huge flop--and did use his staging.

It's also interesting in the 2000 remastered release of the CD notes Schwartz largely claims he got along with Fosse, liked what he did, it was all exagerated bla bla.


Brody that's sfascinating--and I gyuess it's nice to know that the footgae still exists somewhere :)