General Discussion: Pippin's Choreography

I am going through a Fosse obsession. I love his dance moves but I must say,

Fosse and Pippin go together like Chocolate Ice Cream and an onion.

I keep watching the numbers and they are so cheesy, the dancing just does not fit. They tried to make the style fit the dancing but it just failed.

Your Thoughts:

---

Updated On: 11/14/08 at 05:06 PM

Exactly. PIPPIN is Bob Fosse. Bob Fosse is PIPPIN. Both of these combined are what made PIPPIN the hit it was on Broadway. Any production (regional, et al) that has attempted to remove Bob Fosse's contribution to PIPPIN has failed miserably.

How elitist and rude.

---

I suspect you're watching the video recording of the revival. If this is your source, I understand why you don't get Pippin = Fosse. For those of us who performed and / or saw the original Broadway production, we can't imagine a Pippin without Fosse's magic touch. The staging combined with the design was dazzling and what carried the show.

However, do know that Stephen Schwartz and Bob Fosse didn't see eye-to-eye on the original Pippin and Mr. Schwartz goes on record for preferring a very different production, more true to his music, that was produced in Australia.

Something to consider... Fosse requires a huge commitment on the part of the dancers and an extensive rehearsal process to get the intentions of his moves. The Fosse vocabulary is distinct, but to truly be "Fosse" it has to be danced by a passionate company lead by a brilliant choreographer.

Updated On: 11/14/08 at 08:27 PM

Wow really? While I think Pippin has Schwartz' most underated score (the way initial reviews completely and utterly dismissed it seemed to reek of some sort of snobbism, although I knwo that with both it and Chicago many critics were shocked with how LOUD Fosse amplified the music in the theatres, something I guess unheard of at the time), I definetly think Fosse makes the show.

In fact, some fun little community theatre productions aside, I wouldn't bother reviving it without the Fosse choreography, production. Much like Sweet Charity which was basically written aroudn his staging and choreography (and so suffers when other sattempt it) , Pippin was completely *re*configured around hsi staging. And it's amazing. Yeah in some ways I could see the cheesiness--it's *by far* his most dated show--that sorta early 70s hippy thing. Tony Walton and Patricia Z's designs are gorgeous,and hugely influential but also very dated (the fact that int he pics and videos so many of the men of the chorus have mustaches--common to 70s musicals of course--might help as well).

The filmed version, while great to have, also isn't really the best way to judge the original show, being cut up so much and not really filmed to the best advantage, though I think K Dolby did a good job of recreating Fosse's staging.

"I think the Choreography was wonderful, but it did NOT mix well with Schwartz's music at all. I think steven tries, but it just didn't mesh at all. "

Well he wasn't trying--rememebr Fosse had him barred form most rehearsals, he wrote the score for a very different, very pastoral, picaresque, optimistic show. Fosse used that material and created a show that seems to be about on some level a man contemplating suicide (that original ending)--I almsot see it as all these creepy people in his head as he tries to deal with life, at the end barely escaping suicide. However i think the contrast of material and staging for some reason works REALLY well. I know some critics felt it was Fosse just tarting up slight material, I completely disagree. I think the staging and dancing is *incredible*

"It's only elitist and rude to a teenager :)"

How condescending and still really rude.

You can say one had to see the production live to really grasp it, but it's still really elitist and rude to tell someone who wasn't alive then or hasn't the means to see it recreated in a production today that they're incapable of grasping it.

Bye bye condescending, elitist and rude person!

---

I'm totally fine with you not accepting my "bashing" because it wasn't directed at you at all. LoL

---

This thread has very quickly, completely confused me.

Incidentally (and as expected) I have on DVD Bob Fosse's full original edit/cut of the 1981 taping of PIPPIN.

Though Kathryn Doby recreated Bob Fosse's direction and choreography, Bob Fosse was heavily involved with the taping. So much so that he was sent the entire footage shot and he edited the thing his way. The taping's director, David Sheehan didn't care for Bob Fosse's ideas so he chose to edit the damn thing HIS way, which is why the taping has so many cuts/trims making it so unfaithful to the original stage production.

Bob Fosse's cut is the entire show which was indeed filmed. He also used a few different angles/cuts than the ones David Sheehan used.

And yes... true to form -- I had to boast.

The original choreography is all about style and dark humor. War is a Science is hysterical. The women's choreography is much more technical balletically than the men's. There is meaning and subtext to every movement. It is brilliant,exciting...- the video does not give one any idea of the miniscule details=down to the last finger isolation. A crime it was edited so poorly. The orchestrations are thrilling when heard live.

>The orchestrations are thrilling when heard live.<

That's partly because Stephen Schwartz altered and diminished Ralph Burns' show orchestrations for the cast recording.

---

Nope. It still survives and I confirmed it myself last night when I put both DVDs on to compare the differences.

First, and with all due respect to Bob Fosse -- David Sheehan's camera angle choices are far superior to Bob Fosse's. Fosse literally kept the camera mostly in close-ups whereas Sheehan showcased angles where you saw the other actors. You would think Fosse would do this instead, but nope. He ruined many a visual composition that Sheehan took into consideration. Thank you, Sheehan.

Yes, Pippin talking to the 'floating' (decapitated) head is there as is the longer dance sequence with Pippin and the ladies (there's an extended pas de deux between 2 women before the funky trio starts dancing) and Fastrada's (Chita Rivera) first number and scene is incredibly long -- this was enormously trimmed and cut for the taping/DVD.

Haven't watched more but will post other differences as I notice them. Would love to post them but my digital/video capture gadget died on me so until I get a replacement -- can't post any goodies on YouTube.com till then. Sorry.

That's interesting re the Aussie production! I always assumed it was completely diff and had no remnants of Fosse's choreography. I do know the UK production was a huge flop--and did use his staging.

It's also interesting in the 2000 remastered release of the CD notes Schwartz largely claims he got along with Fosse, liked what he did, it was all exagerated bla bla.


Brody that's sfascinating--and I gyuess it's nice to know that the footgae still exists somewhere :)