Here Lies Love and Live Musicians- Page 2

[Call_me_jorge]

Posted: 5/26/23 at 11:46am

Has AFM 802 released a statement yet? Do we know for sure an agreement has not been made and a few lone musicians are trying to make this a bigger deal than it actually is, or were the producers really trying to open this without live musicians and over the unions head? As hogan said, these are not novice producers. So, not sure how they thought they were going to get away with this. Did any of the prior off-Broadway productions face any backlash for this?

[fashionguru_23]

Posted: 5/26/23 at 11:53am

I feel like there has to be some sort of agreement that isn't public knowledge. I feel like we are in a movement where strikes, and protesting is getting the job done, (for better or worse). If there isn't agreement, I'm surprised something larger hasn't come out. 

[Call_me_jorge]

Posted: 5/26/23 at 11:56am

BETTY22 said: "Maybe they should just do the show in another venue. You can't come to Broadway and expect NOT to have live musicians.

It's outrageous!!!!"

After the money they’ve spent into transforming the Broadway theatre, I doubt that’s a viable option right now.

[ErmengardeStopSniveling]

Posted: 5/26/23 at 12:06pm

Can someone link to the social media "outrage" surrounding this? I haven't seen anything based on some cursory searches –– and like someone said, may be a few rabblerousers speaking prematurely while negotiations are ongoing. It's very possible that there hasn't been a verdict with the union and producers yet...you'd be surprised how late in the game some of this stuff happens, even with seasoned producers & GMs.

Why is it always AFM that is willing to die on hills like this, clinging to arbitrary and sometimes outdated rules? Thinking back to the BE MORE CHILL orchestra situation.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 5/26/23 at 12:27pm

There seems to be some misapprehension of what I have been saying. Never have I suggested that the producer can ignore AFM and move forward with the show. Without some agreement, the show would be shut down for 1 of 2 reasons I have described. 

What is on the recording (I listened to some) sounds to me like a fully produced recording, so yes of course that is not the same as a live band of whatever number. Finally, @HeyMrMusic, if you take a look at the CBA, section XIV, you will see that recorded tracks are authorized as long as the agreed-upon number of musicians are employed. I certainly never intended to suggest that 0 musicians was an option. Something will have to be worked on very soon if it hasn't already (is it possible this is a tempest in a teapot?) Rehearsals must start relatively soon and that also requires at least 1 musician.

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 5/26/23 at 12:27pm

I don’t know how “hire more than zero musicians” is an unreasonable ask for a Broadway musical where there are rules and contracts about doing so. Imagine being a theatrical union not covering a major Broadway show.

I’ve read some accounts of union musicians and it is a case where there has not been an agreement or decision made yet. As these are not novice producers, they know when they can drag things out to the point where they’ll just get their way.

[BwayMusician]

Posted: 5/26/23 at 1:34pm

ErmengardeStopSniveling said: "Can someone link to the social media "outrage" surrounding this? I haven't seen anything based on some cursory searches –– and like someone said, may be a few rabblerousers speaking prematurely while negotiations are ongoing. It's very possible that there hasn't been a verdict with the union and producers yet...you'd be surprised how late in the game some of this stuff happens, even with seasoned producers & GMs.

Why is it always AFM that is willing to die on hills like this, clinging to arbitrary and sometimes outdated rules? Thinking back to the BE MORE CHILL orchestra situation."

This is anything but arbitrary and outdated. To equate a production hiring ZERO musicians with a minor squabble involving an orchestrator/contractor performing on said show (a triple dip, if you will), shows a incredible lack of understanding on each issue. There was a mutually beneficial agreement reached on the latter. Are unions just supposed to ignore contracts because you think they’re outdated and arbitrary? They’re agreed upon by both parties. 
 

802 is fighting this, and Byrne and co have been very resilient to change. Unfortunately the arbitration process can take a long time…it’s very likely HLL will open before an agreement is reached without any musicians. Heck, it might even close before they figure it out! 

Updated On: 5/26/23 at 01:34 PM

[MemorableUserName]

Posted: 5/30/23 at 2:35pm

Shared link to today's NYT story:

Broadway Musicians Object to David Byrne’s ‘Here Lies Love’

 

[Call_me_jorge]

Posted: 5/30/23 at 3:18pm

Apparently the offbroadway cast recording used 49 musicians/instruments? Kind of abhorrent to use that many for a cast recording and claim you don’t need any for the live show. Like, at least use synths… I wonder what the music director is going through, surely it’s not easy being in the middle of the production team and fighting for your union. 

Updated On: 5/30/23 at 03:18 PM

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 5/30/23 at 4:13pm

Music directors aren’t covered by the union unless they’re conducting or playing an instrument, so I imagine he’s not currently under an 802 contract, sadly.

This whole thing is sad and bizarre. I just saw an article written by the president of Local 802 and he said after Contact won Best Musical, the Tony Awards agreed that no other show using only prerecorded music would be eligible for Best Musical.

[sppunk]

Posted: 5/30/23 at 4:23pm

I wish the cast could walk out on the first performance. Shame on the producer. Everyone should boycott this show. 

[troynow]

Posted: 5/30/23 at 4:38pm

sppunk said: "I wish the cast could walk out on the first performance. Shame on the producer. Everyone should boycott this show."

Even more terrible when their producer is a BILLIONAIRE. 

If you want to perform to track pay the musicians first. 

[ErmengardeStopSniveling]

Posted: 5/30/23 at 4:49pm

troynow said: "If you want to perform to track pay the musicians first."

Who says this isn't the case? Think the issue is that it's not live, not that musicians weren't used on the recordings.

This production has been very conscious of avoiding controversy re: optics (touting the heritage & debuts of their cast, noting who on the producing team is Filipino, consultants on the show, etc) so it's kind of funny that it's all blowing up over this now.

I assume AFM's issue is with zero musicians. If they were proposing even 3 musicians, this would not be a talking point.

Meanwhile, funny that the news comes today when it was announced there would be an "off-Broadway cast recording" of a show whose orchestra is being recorded in London separate from the vocals –– not with the New York orchestra that played for its run.

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 5/30/23 at 4:51pm

Report by Local 802’s President

“Just as TV and film writers are on strike for respect and job security in the face of technology and corporate greed, David Byrne is likewise using technology to try to replace professional musicians.”

“What is Local 802 doing about this? We’ll be in the streets protesting, but more importantly, we’re going to be all over the media, telling the world that this show is ripping off the public. If any show tries this in the future, they’ll see the consequences. Please spread the word and please sign our petition.”

[gypsy101]

Posted: 5/30/23 at 5:01pm

off topic a bit but i wonder if byrne will finally release the sheet music now that it’s going to broadway, i’ve always loved the score 

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 5/30/23 at 5:01pm

ErmengardeStopSniveling said: "Who says this isn't the case? Think the issue is that it's not live, not that musicians weren't used on the recordings."

You’re not allowed to use recordings that emulate live musicians. That’s in the contract. The recordings that they made were nonunion sessions, or else the union would have names and records of all the musicians and would flat-out be able to stop them from using union recordings without hiring them to play live. At least, this is my understanding. (It’s not even hard to find the personnel used on all of the recordings, though. A simple Google search brings up every musician used.)

[ErmengardeStopSniveling]

Posted: 5/30/23 at 5:30pm

Parts of that letter from Tino Gagliardi are unhinged, reading like the combination of a mob boss meets a child whose cookies were stolen.

– Zero mention of Fatboy Slim (the co-composer) and coauthors Tom Gandey, J Pardo, and Alex Timbers –– placing blame entirely on Byrne and minimizing the contributions of the other authors?
– Zero mention of the lead producer (Hal Luftig) and GM/EP (Foresight) who are the ones with actual power in this situation, yet two stabs at Shubert and no mention of Nederlander (who is also a copro).
– By his logic, live singing is not live music...a slap in the face to an entire sibling union.
– Acting as though this is the first time technology has replaced a live musician, when synthesizers and Ableton have increasingly been utilized on Bway and tours (sometimes positively, depending on the needs of the score).
– Erasure of a multicultural form of music & performance art, as articulated in the production's statement.

I remain in favor of unions and live music if that's what a score calls for –– and I expect this show will eventually get a small number of live musicians –– but the way 802 is going about this is strange and chaotic.

Updated On: 5/30/23 at 05:30 PM

[BETTY22]

Posted: 5/30/23 at 5:49pm

 Tino Gagliardi letter is great. Shame on David Byrne. He has the power to fix this. 

I'm happy to see his was personally called out. 

I hope all the TONY voters remember this next season. 

I will not be seeing this show. 

 

[sinister teashop]

Posted: 5/30/23 at 5:53pm

ErmengardeStopSniveling said: "Parts of that letter from Tino Gagliardi are unhinged, reading like the combination of a mob boss meets a child whose cookies were stolen.

– Erasure of a multicultural form of music & performance art, as articulated in the production's statement.

I don't think the union president's lack of mention of the show's multiculturalism counts as "erasure".

It is possible to have economic decency and diversity at the same time. One needn't be sacrificed for the other. 

 

Updated On: 5/30/23 at 05:53 PM

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 5/30/23 at 5:55pm

He likely mentions only David Byrne because he’s credited with the show’s concept and the one who’s insistent on the tracks. I bet Hal Luftig and Alex Timbers would have just hired a live band from the beginning. (Fatboy Slim seems to have little involvement in the show.)

How else do you think the president of a union not being represented should have responded, especially when it’s in direct violation of agreed-upon contracts? Also, of course he’s not discrediting live singers. But imagine if Lincoln Center’s Camelot presented the original orchestration in the form of tracks only. Imagine any Broadway show doing that. It would cheapen the experience without cheapening the ticket price.

While technology has been incorporated in just about every new musical these days, it’s been used in conjunction with live musicians. We can also say the same about any pop act that goes on tour: technology enhances the live element. But there’s always a live element, even if the music is supposed to sound slick and produced.

I happen to be Filipino and have very different ideas about karaoke as a part of the culture. Magic Mic, anyone?

[ErmengardeStopSniveling]

Posted: 5/30/23 at 6:11pm

Is there a public list of the orchestra minimum for each house?

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 5/30/23 at 6:28pm

Broadway, Minskoff, St. James and Marquis (also New Amsterdam and Lyric for Broadway League/Disney productions) - 19
Majestic, Palace, Lunt-Fontanne, Imperial, Gershwin, Shubert and Winter Garden - 18
Neil Simon, AI Hirschfeld and Richard Rodgers - 14
August Wilson and Broadhurst - 12
Barrymore, Music Box and Gerald Schoenfeld- 9
Lena Horne, Eugene O'Neill and Bernard Jacobs - 8
Longacre and Nederlander - 4
Ambassador, Belasco, Booth, Circle in the Square, Cort, Golden, Walter Kerr and Lyceum - 3

[TaffyDavenport]

Posted: 5/30/23 at 7:30pm

Explanation of the show's musical concept:

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cs4g4f1u5W0/

 

[pethian]

Posted: 5/30/23 at 7:34pm

sppunk said: "I wish the cast could walk out on the first performance. Shame on the producer. Everyone should boycott this show."

I am getting angrier about this every day. If Byrne and company do not do the right thing I will certainly boycott and join the protestors on the picket line. And the TONYs should hold to their word and deem the show ineligible.

 

[DaveyG]

Posted: 5/30/23 at 7:35pm

Call_me_jorge said: "Apparently the offbroadway cast recording used 49 musicians/instruments? Kind of abhorrent to use that many for a cast recording and claim you don’t need any for the live show. Like, at least use synths… I wonder what the music director is going through, surely it’s not easy being in the middle of the production team and fighting for your union."

Link to the credits for the Off-Bway cast recording:

https://www.allmusic.com/album/here-lies-love-original-2013-off-broadway-cast-recording--mw0002650314/credits