Here Lies Love and Live Musicians- Page 5

[bwayphreak234]

Posted: 6/7/23 at 10:19am

I'm rather turned off by this show and how they're defending their stance and choice on not having live musicians. If they want to play a Broadway house and be considered a Broadway show, then they need to play by Broadway rules. Period.

[RippedMan]

Posted: 6/7/23 at 10:41am

Did American Pyscho just pay the minimum?

[BJR]

Posted: 6/7/23 at 11:05am

And whats not clear is why musicians couldn't play music that is treated conceptually like karaoke.

Most bands are piped in from halfway down the block for chrissakes. You can't have a band play and folks pretend that the track is recorded musicians but live ones trying to sound recorded?

Come on.

 

[bdn223]

Posted: 6/7/23 at 11:11am

bwayphreak234 said: "I'm rather turned off by this show and how they're defending their stance and choice on not having live musicians. If they want to play a Broadway house and be considered a Broadway show, then they need to play by Broadway rules. Period."

From my understanding the show has been in active arbitration with the Musicians union since February, but my sources won't tell me which side decided to appeal the special situation committee's ruling via 802's contract with the Broadway League. Based on the producers response though and how many loopholes the 802's contract has for going against the mandatory minimums at theaters, I have to guess its the shows producers. 

 

[RUkiddingme]

Posted: 6/7/23 at 5:03pm

This may have already been discussed.

If the show gets their "special situation" label because it's not a traditional broadway musical, would that make it ineligible for Tonys in all the traditional musical categories?

 

[ErmengardeStopSniveling]

Posted: 6/7/23 at 5:09pm

RUkiddingme said: "This may have already been discussed.

If the show gets their "special situation" label because it's not a traditional broadway musical, would that make it ineligible for Tonys in all the traditional musical categories?"

No. The "special situation" is exclusively related to the 802 agreement and would simply allow it to have fewer musicians than the house minimum. Similar to HAMILTON at the Rodgers (10 musicians, 14 minimum) or ONCE UPON at the Marquis (10 musicians, 19 minimum).

[RUkiddingme]

Posted: 6/7/23 at 5:13pm

Sad to live in a world where Hamilton's music is in the same sentence as that Britney Vegas nightmare!   LOL

 

[Voter]

Posted: 6/7/23 at 5:29pm

https://www.broadwayworld.com/article/HERE-LIES-LOVE-Releases-New-Statement-on-Negotiations-With-the-Local-802-Musicians-Union-20230607

The producers of Here Lies Love have released a statement on where they stand in the ongoing negotiations with the Local 802 Musicians’ Union.

We, the Lead Producers of Here Lies Love, have since February 2023 been actively engaged in and totally compliant with the established Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA) procedures for requesting a Special Situations designation from Local 802, which we and the musical's creators firmly believe the show warrants. The negotiated long-established criteria for granting a Special Situations designation states that the issue shall be decided “based primarily on artistic considerations.”  Further, the CBA provides that:
 
If a production meets the criteria set forth in any of the following categories, it shall qualify as a Special Situation and shall be permitted to perform with the requested smaller orchestra. The criteria for determining whether a production calls for a smaller orchestra are: (i) the concept expressed by the composer and/or orchestrator; (ii) whether the production is of a definable musical genre different from a traditional Broadway musical; (iii) the production concept expressed by the director and/or choreographer; and/or (iv) whether the production re-creates a pre-existing size band or band's sound (on or offstage).
 
Other considerations which shall be taken into account but which would not necessarily be determinative include but are not limited to: whether the show was previously presented with a smaller orchestra in a production of a professional caliber comparable to Broadway (e.g. London's West End), or whether the production was required to book a theatre with a minimum higher than the intended number of musicians due to change of theatre. A production which meets the criteria set forth in this paragraph may be denied Special Situation status only for demonstrable reasons.


The Special Situations designation as an exception from the otherwise applicable house minimum musician staffing requirements and the process through which it is to be determined has been re-affirmed in every contract since it was first approved in 2003 by AFM, Local 802 and the Broadway League in their Collective Bargaining Agreement.
 
In addition to always maintaining that the show would have at least three actor-musicians (never zero), we have also been engaged in good faith discussions with the union over how best to resolve this issue. The next step in the Special Situations determination process will be the empaneling of a review committee composed of representatives for the producers, Local 802 and one or more neutral parties who will make a recommendation regarding the application of the contractual provisions above.  No decision has therefore been made by the Neutral panel to date.
 
It is because we believe in and respect the CBA that we have followed its guidelines so closely. We trust the CBA to work as intended and look forward to reaching a resolution. To be clear: it is still our goal to resolve this matter quickly and reasonably for all involved, while maintaining our responsibility to facilitate the original vision of our creative team. 
 
We stand by our creative team's artistic choices and are proud of the historic moment we are bringing to Broadway with the first-ever all-Filipino cast. In this truly binational production, we have rooted our decisions in authenticity and excellence. The rich cultural history of karaoke is a valued component of Filipino and other AAPI traditions and communities. Alongside our premium production values and revolutionary immersive form, we affirm it as an essential conceptual construct for the many non-traditional genres our musical contains. 
 
We recognize and celebrate the vast array of plays and musicals, styles and genres, which make up the Broadway landscape, and are grateful that each show exists on its own merit as a piece of commercial art. As we have for all of our show's critically acclaimed runs in New York, London and Seattle, we trust our audiences' and critics' enthusiastic responses, and look forward to welcoming everyone to experience Here Lies Love for themselves. Here Lies Love is an experiential redefinition of what Broadway can be; one that expands the creative offerings available to audiences and creates an invitation for new audiences to join us in experiencing live theater. 
 
We and our colleagues have and continue to conduct ourselves with integrity. We believe our petition for Special Situations is completely justified and warranted. We have always intended to abide by the results of the established procedure in which we are engaged.
 
- Patrick Catullo, Hal Luftig/Kevin Connor, Jose Antonio Vargas, Diana DiMenna & Clint Ramos
 

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 6/7/23 at 5:32pm

There’s no new information here. Honestly, I don’t blame the union making this public because there is still a Broadway musical starting performances on 6/17 with no professional musicians. Negotiations can’t be taking this long and something has stalled.

[BETTY22]

Posted: 6/7/23 at 5:49pm

Hard pass. These producer statements keep getting worse. 

[bear88]

Posted: 6/7/23 at 8:54pm

Pardon me if the question is dumb, but how is Here Lies Love “of a definable musical genre different from a traditional Broadway musical”?

How is karaoke a definable musical genre? I realize it’s only one of several criteria, but that seems like an incredibly weak argument unless I have misunderstood karaoke all this time - which is very possible.

I’m also confused about how this plays out. If there is no decision as of June 17, does the musical just open as planned? Do the producers have to set money aside in case they lose? And if they lose, how would the show work, as I assume everything has been staged and directed not to accommodate musicians? 

Do these types of disputes usually just settle at the last minute? It seems like this one is different because the production plans on using no musicians, as opposed to a smaller number than called for in the contract.

[Kad]

Posted: 6/7/23 at 10:00pm

There is nothing revolutionary about HLL’s score in the world of musical theatre. They are really trying to spin this hard. 

[DrMonicaDeMoneco]

Posted: 6/7/23 at 10:46pm

BETTY22 said: "Hard pass. These producer statements keep getting worse."

Agreed. Shame on HLL producers. 
i don’t understand the argument - karaoke music… what???

[Jonathan Cohen]

Posted: 6/7/23 at 10:58pm

Hire live musicians but also the 'not using them because karaoke is a creative decision' angle is really strange. 

No one associates karaoke with original music, it makes no sense. If karaoke is the vibe they're going for, they should have created a jukebox musical. Like the 2000 film Duets did, which legitimately was about karaoke. 

[bear88]

Posted: 6/8/23 at 4:36am

Kad said: "There is nothing revolutionary about HLL’s score in the world of musical theatre. They are really trying to spin this hard."

I have never seen the show, but I did listen to the cast recording over the weekend and it sounds like … a musical - with instruments and songs and, I gather, very little spoken dialogue. The immersive staging seems like the main conceit, and that’s where the producers are putting their money.

There are a million shows that hide the musicians, on Broadway and off. The no-musician gambit is what has the union upset. This seems like a foreseeable conflict, and I wonder if some sort of offer was made along the way (more than zero).

Have the producers calculated that audiences won’t really care about a labor dispute? Even if they’re right, they still might lose in arbitration. There’s a lot that is still unknown.

[dramamama611]

Posted: 6/8/23 at 7:38am

Jonathan Cohen said: "Hire live musicians but also the 'not using them because karaoke is a creative decision' angle is really strange."

"No one associateskaraoke with original music, it makes no sense. Ifkaraoke is the vibe they're going for, they should have created a jukebox musical. Like the 2000 film Duets did, which legitimately was about karaoke."

Yes. its silly, but it gets around the problem...its been done. Or so I've heard.

 

Your second point is an excellent one.

 

Oy,  this show has a lot to overcome. Between seeing Filipino's posting both for and against this show and this controversy, I feel very meh about wanting to see this. (And, I'm so not a fan of immersive theater)

[BorisTomashevsky]

Posted: 6/8/23 at 7:42am

They’re posting a bunch of little “the cast is so happy!” videos on Facebook, which are getting a barrage of critical comments about the no-musicians situation. The critical comments are then being deleted en masse. 
 

Edit to add: some of these video are on the show’s FB profile page, but many of them are sponsored ads that appear randomly in the generic FB feed when scrolling and don’t seem to be on the show’s FB profile. 

Updated On: 6/8/23 at 07:42 AM

[Voter]

Posted: 6/8/23 at 10:27am

BorisTomashevsky said: "They’re posting a bunch of little “the cast is so happy!” videos on Facebook, which are getting a barrage of critical comments about the no-musicians situation. The critical comments are then being deleted en masse."

Again, feels weird to combat the PR by using the cast 

[DrMonicaDeMoneco]

Posted: 6/8/23 at 7:32pm

I brought this up before but doesn’t anyone else find it odd that they chose the Broadway to open at? It’s a massive house. It’s hard to sell even with a really good word of mouth show

[RippedMan]

Posted: 6/8/23 at 7:55pm

It’s not like shows were knocking down the walls to get in there. It’s a massive barn of a theater.  I’m sure they got a good deal on the rent and crunched the numbers to make it work. What they are trying to do - recreate a night club - they need the space to do it. I’m still curious about how the view from the cheap seats is going to be and if the vibe is going to translate to a more commercial space. I saw it off Broadway - from the second floor seated area - and it was a good show but honestly don’t remember anything about the music or the cast. I just remember thinking it must be exhausting to always be shuffling around down on the floor. 

[TaffyDavenport]

Posted: 6/8/23 at 7:59pm

I don't know how accurate my calculations are, but I came up with a new capacity of only approximately 870 total seats (down from 1761), including 193 standing spots, which explains why they needed a theatre as big as the Broadway. If anyone else can confirm this or provide other info, I'd appreciate it.

Updated On: 6/8/23 at 07:59 PM

[bdn223]

Posted: 6/8/23 at 8:15pm

TaffyDavenport said: "I don't know how accurate my calculations are, but I came up with a new capacity of only approximately 870 total seats (down from 1761), including 193 standing spots, which explains why they needed a theatre as big as the Broadway. If anyone else can confirm this or provide other info, I'd appreciate it."

The new capacity it between 1200-1400, but that is a rough estimate before they test the obstruction of seats in the mezzanine.

[BalconyClub]

Posted: 6/8/23 at 8:17pm

I try to avoid jukebox musicals, but I will give a good old-fashioned karaoke show a chance every time.
 

[jkcohen626]

Posted: 6/8/23 at 8:20pm

TaffyDavenport said: "I don't know how accurate my calculations are, but I came up with a new capacity of only approximately 870 total seats (down from 1761), including 193 standing spots, which explains why they needed a theatre as big as the Broadway. If anyone else can confirm this or provide other info, I'd appreciate it."

I think you only counted the rear mezzanine. Shubert says the full mezzanine alone is 834 seats (although I heard that they might be removing a few mezz seats) + 193 standing, 104 floorside, and 20 in the VIP lounge. 

That would be 1143ish. That is still way below what it used to be and no 1100-1200 seat theatre has a minimum anywhere close to 19. If I have done my math correctly, the average house minimum for a theatre between 1000 and 1200 seats is 6 musicians. 

[TaffyDavenport]

Posted: 6/8/23 at 8:36pm

They're not using the entire rear mezzanine, in particular the far left and right sections, which are not being used at all, as far as I can tell, as well as some of the left center and right sections. They're also only using the 2 center sections of the front mezzanine, which is a considerable number of seats lost.


 

Updated On: 6/8/23 at 08:36 PM