Here Lies Love and Live Musicians- Page 7

[BwayMusician]

Posted: 6/10/23 at 10:18am

The music is there - remember, the backing tracks Byrne has been using had over 30 musicians on them. An orchestrator needs to shave things down, but that is do-able in a week, and most good musicians in NYC can sight read a show if really needed. I’m mostly wondering if the sound team has time to do things - the Broadway had a huge basement that would amply fit 8 musicians, but building the iso rooms and wiring mics might take a while, especially when I’m sure that team has their hands full. 
 

I’m so happy Byrne came to his senses and the union was able to push for this. Thank you to everyone who supported this cause. I wish the show a long and profitable run!

[RippedMan]

Posted: 6/10/23 at 10:30am

BroadwayNYC2 said: "“People paid $6k to stand for 4 hours at Taylor Swift. People will pay for the experience, I think.”


3.5 hours, and there weren’t any GA standing sections everybody had a seat."

Had a seat doesn't equally not standing for 3.5 hours.

[pethian]

Posted: 6/10/23 at 10:39am

Kad said: "HogansHero said: "I am not convinced they are not going to be glorified walkers period. But as I said I don't know. It seems inconceivable to be that this had all been worked out, planned, and implemented. The context of what we DO know makes that seem implausible to me."

Yes, I too question the logistics of how a production would suddenly integrate this many musicians so late in its process when the entire thing had been apparently built around having none. This affects nearly every aspect of the production."


Precisely! There's got to be a piece to this we do not know and, like both of you, I lean toward glorified walkers of some kind who play minimally. i mean, the sound plot has mostly been tech'd  already.

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 6/10/23 at 4:13pm

We will see how this is all integrated. I’m sure the union will now grant leniency in order for the production to figure it out (as well as implement any backpay to the musicians), but I think the union would make a stink about using glorified walkers. I sincerely hope they don’t go this route and they make the musicians play live throughout.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 6/10/23 at 5:54pm

HeyMrMusic said: "We will see how this is all integrated. I’m sure the union will now grant leniency in order for the production to figure it out (as well as implement any backpay to the musicians), but I think the union would make a stink about using glorified walkers. I sincerely hope they don’t go this route and they make the musicians play live throughout."

Per new reports, they will be using tracks. (Note that the CBA does not and I doubt ever did prohibit recorded tracks.) Whether/to what extent the extra 9 will play at some point is still unknown. I don't know what "leniency," "backpay," or "stink" you think is involved. All of the atmospherics aside, now that the smoke has cleared (poor choice, sorry, but no pun intended) it is obvious that this was never a negotiation about "artistic integrity, etc.; it was always about filthy lucre.

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 6/10/23 at 6:23pm

I meant that I imagine the union will allow the show to figure out in their own time how to now put 9 extra musicians into the show. I assume this won’t be done by the first preview on Saturday. That’s the leniency I meant. I also imagine that the union agreed to this thinking that the show would actually use the live musicians and not just have them sit in the building while tracks are played. I realize some sort of tracks will still be played; that’s standard among new shows anyway and I’m not naive about that. And I assume there might be some backpay that will be paid to the hired musicians once they actually start performances (as in they might have to be paid for all performances starting the first preview). I don’t know any details and I’m not trying to create any drama, I’m just offering my suppositions. 

It’s obvious that this decision was made very quickly by the production because there was so much negative word of mouth over the last week and a half. Also, I imagine there would have been 802 presence at the Tonys and maybe even winners talking about this situation on air if something wasn’t done quickly. So yeah, it was always about money and not an artistic decision. And if it were for artistic reasons, there wouldn’t be so many acoustic instruments on the tracks themselves.

[DrMonicaDeMoneco]

Posted: 6/10/23 at 6:41pm

This show is DOA.

 

[bear88]

Posted: 6/10/23 at 7:17pm

dramamama611 said: "I need to start by saying (from what I know, which isn't a lot) that I support the union and am glad they held their ground.

I just don't understand how they get an 8 piece pit ready in what...ten days? I know professional musicians are good (phenomenal) but it's not just playing notes on a page and when is there collaboration time with the cast? Is it possible they always knew this would be the outcome and have been prepared? Or (sorry for the conspiracy) that this was used as publicity?

About the only thing I can safely rule out is that this was a publicity tool. Not many people were paying attention and the publicity it finally garnered was very negative. I guess it got me, a potential audience member, to listen to the cast recording - so that’s something. The title song is an earworm.

There’s a resolution, and the logistics of how this will work are unclear. But I never care much about labor disputes once they are resolved and the union says it is satisfied. The Broadway incarnation of the show can succeed or fail on its own merits.

 

[HogansHero]

Posted: 6/10/23 at 8:54pm

@MrMusic I guess we will need to wait and see what happens at that first preview. I am not trying to create drama either and if there is only one thing we can agree on it is that everything is supposition at this point. I just honestly don't think what you are suggesting is realistic. The show is running, the creatives want to work in lots of rehearsal time for all of their notes, changes, etc. When are you proposing that they have this additional rehearsal basically to relearn the show with live musicians? I just don't think that's ever going to happen. What I would like to see would be some way of getting every musician to do a little something so it does seem like a complete writeoff. Could they play an overture? Could they play with the onstage musicians? Could they play a curtain call? I have no idea but to me that seems the limit of what is possible.  

Even in your scenario, there would be no back pay. Musicians would be rehearsing. Plenty. 

Oh and the idea that this was some last minute thing is just wrong, as is the idea that negative PR drove anything. The producers were never planning on no musicians. The producers always knew they had 4 minimum. This was about what would the number be. They probably hoped for 4; they settled on 9. But (contrary to all the back and forth on here) there was a process and this was all resolved within that process. And the number is all about money. All the talk about artistic integrity by 802 was a mirage: there is no contract provision requiring even a second of live music as long as everyone agreed to is paid. There was nothing to make a stink about; they got the money they decided to exact. And if you read what the production has now said, "Under the CBA special situations designation Here Lies Love will have 12 802 members, which includes the 3 actor musicians playing the live music they’ve always played and our MD. As in its previous iterations, the musical’s artistic integrity and musical concept remains." Make of that what you will.

[DrMonicaDeMoneco]

Posted: 6/10/23 at 9:03pm

HogansHero said: "@MrMusic I guess we will need to wait and see what happens at that first preview. I am not trying to create drama either and if there is only one thing we can agree on it is that everything is supposition at this point. I just honestly don't think what you are suggesting is realistic. The show is running, the creatives want to work in lots of rehearsal time for all of their notes, changes, etc. When are you proposing that they have this additional rehearsal basically to relearn the show with live musicians? I just don't think that's ever going to happen. What I would like to see would be some way of getting every musician to do a little something so it does seem like a complete writeoff. Could they play an overture? Could they play with the onstage musicians? Could they play a curtain call? I have no idea but to me that seems the limit of what is possible.

Even in your scenario, there would be no back pay. Musicians would be rehearsing. Plenty.

Oh and the idea that this was some last minute thing is just wrong, as is the idea that negative PR drove anything. The producers were never planning on no musicians. The producers always knew they had 4 minimum. This was about what would the number be. They probably hoped for 4; they settled on 9. But (contrary to all the back and forth on here) there was a process and this was all resolved within that process. And the number is all about money. All the talk about artistic integrity by 802 was a mirage: there is no contract provision requiring even a second of live music as long as everyone agreed to is paid. There was nothing to make a stink about; they got the money they decided to exact. And if you read what the production has now said, "Under the CBA special situations designation Here Lies Love will have 12 802 members, which includes the 3 actor musicians playing the live music they’ve always played and our MD. As in its previous iterations, the musical’s artistic integrity and musical concept remains." Make of that what you will."

WRONG. The producers planned on getting away with zero zero ZERO ZERO ZERO musicians. Don’t get it twisted. You are not involved. You don’t know. 
it was only after the union planned on suing them, they recanted 

[JSquared2]

Posted: 6/10/23 at 9:16pm

DrMonicaDeMoneco said: "HogansHero said: "@MrMusic I guess we will need to wait and see what happens at that first preview. I am not trying to create drama either and if there is only one thing we can agree on it is that everything is supposition at this point. I just honestly don't think what you are suggesting is realistic. The show is running, the creatives want to work in lots of rehearsal time for all of their notes, changes, etc. When are you proposing that they have this additional rehearsal basically to relearn the show with live musicians? I just don't think that's ever going to happen. What I would like to see would be some way of getting every musician to do a little something so it does seem like a complete writeoff. Could they play an overture? Could they play with the onstage musicians? Could they play a curtain call? I have no idea but to me that seems the limit of what is possible.

Even in your scenario, there would be no back pay. Musicians would be rehearsing. Plenty.

Oh and the idea that this was some last minute thing is just wrong, as is the idea that negative PR drove anything. The producers were never planning on no musicians. The producers always knew they had 4 minimum. This was about what would the number be. They probably hoped for 4; they settled on 9. But (contrary to all the back and forth on here) there was a process and this was all resolved within that process. And the number is all about money. All the talk about artistic integrity by 802 was a mirage: there is no contract provision requiring even a second of live music as long as everyone agreed to is paid. There was nothing to make a stink about; they got the money they decided to exact. And if you read what the production has now said, "Under the CBA special situations designation Here Lies Love will have 12 802 members, which includes the 3 actor musicians playing the live music they’ve always played and our MD. As in its previous iterations, the musical’s artistic integrity and musical concept remains." Make of that what you will."

WRONG. The producers planned on getting away with zero zero ZERO ZERO ZERO musicians. Don’t get it twisted. You are not involved. You don’t know.
it was only after the union planned on suing them, they recanted"


Please stop commenting on things you know nothing about. 

[DrMonicaDeMoneco]

Posted: 6/10/23 at 9:36pm

JSquared2 said: "DrMonicaDeMoneco said: "HogansHero said: "@MrMusic I guess we will need to wait and see what happens at that first preview. I am not trying to create drama either and if there is only one thing we can agree on it is that everything is supposition at this point. I just honestly don't think what you are suggesting is realistic. The show is running, the creatives want to work in lots of rehearsal time for all of their notes, changes, etc. When are you proposing that they have this additional rehearsal basically to relearn the show with live musicians? I just don't think that's ever going to happen. What I would like to see would be some way of getting every musician to do a little something so it does seem like a complete writeoff. Could they play an overture? Could they play with the onstage musicians? Could they play a curtain call? I have no idea but to me that seems the limit of what is possible.

Even in your scenario, there would be no back pay. Musicians would be rehearsing. Plenty.

Oh and the idea that this was some last minute thing is just wrong, as is the idea that negative PR drove anything. The producers were never planning on no musicians. The producers always knew they had 4 minimum. This was about what would the number be. They probably hoped for 4; they settled on 9. But (contrary to all the back and forth on here) there was a process and this was all resolved within that process. And the number is all about money. All the talk about artistic integrity by 802 was a mirage: there is no contract provision requiring even a second of live music as long as everyone agreed to is paid. There was nothing to make a stink about; they got the money they decided to exact. And if you read what the production has now said, "Under the CBA special situations designation Here Lies Love will have 12 802 members, which includes the 3 actor musicians playing the live music they’ve always played and our MD. As in its previous iterations, the musical’s artistic integrity and musical concept remains." Make of that what you will."

WRONG. The producers planned on getting away with zero zero ZERO ZERO ZERO musicians. Don’t get it twisted. You are not involved. You don’t know.
it was only after the union planned on suing them, they recanted"


Please stop commenting on things you know nothing about."

Please stop commenting on things you know nothing about 

[HogansHero]

Posted: 6/10/23 at 9:55pm

DrMonicaDeMoneco said: "it was only after the union planned on suing them, they recanted"
LOL

Well that is quite interesting considering that "suing them" is not one of the remedies available to the union. 

Now might be a good time to stop embarrassing yourself. 

Speaking of which, has anyone figured out another past or present fake screenname for this one? I have an idea but I don't want to share it.

 

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 6/10/23 at 11:42pm

I do think the producers always planned to have zero 802 musicians and just get away with the “actor-musicians.” In previous productions, the MD (Justin Levine) was not under a union contract and did not perform or conduct during the show. So it was going to be a total of zero plus the three actors who play one song live. The producers saying the MD makes four is them backpedaling and adding another number; that was never in their original ask according to what I’ve heard.

The fact is that they do have to figure out how to integrate live music elsewhere in the show. It’s a tall order. I don’t envy them if they didn’t have a plan to do so.

As of now, I hear there are no musicians hired yet because they’re still trying to figure out what instruments to use. Which sounds like they really are trying to make something work. I’m hoping that’s the case. I’m curious what else we will learn within the coming week leading up to the first preview. 

[DrMonicaDeMoneco]

Posted: 6/11/23 at 12:11am

HogansHero said: "DrMonicaDeMoneco said: "it was only after the union planned on suing them, they recanted"
LOL

Well that is quite interesting considering that "suing them" is not one of the remedies available to the union.

Now might be a good time to stop embarrassing yourself.

Speaking of which, has anyone figured out another past or present fake screenname for this one? I have an idea but I don't want to share it.

"

Girl, please. Sit down.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 6/11/23 at 12:44am

HeyMrMusic said: "I do think the producers always planned to have zero 802 musicians and just get away with the “actor-musicians.” In previous productions, the MD (Justin Levine) was not under a union contract and did not perform or conduct during the show. So it was going to be a total of zero plus the three actors who play one song live. The producers saying the MD makes four is them backpedaling and adding another number; that was never in their original ask according to what I’ve heard.

The fact is that they do have to figure out how to integrate live music elsewhere in the show. It’s a tall order. I don’t envy them if they didn’t have a plan to do so.

As of now, I hear there are no musicians hired yet because they’re still trying to figure out what instruments to use. Which sounds like they really are trying to make something work. I’m hoping that’s the case. I’m curious what else we will learn within the coming week leading up to the first preview."

Well, the problems with that are that J Oconer Navarro, the MD, is a card carrying 802 member, and the 802 coverage for functioning as a musician on stage is not and was never open to negotiation. I don't know what you mean about the original ask. The MD is not a part of the 12. I have no idea what you have heard about an "original ask" but it makes no sense, not to mention that according to you, "the producers always planned to have zero 802 musicians." Also the fact is they do not have to figure out how to integrate anything. They have a deal and they have made their intentions clear. With all do respect, I think you are way off course about this and also what you say in your final paragraph. Hide and watch.

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 6/11/23 at 1:16am

I actually know way more about the situation than you think, but you’re making it impossible to get a word in without a combative response. So I’m just going to stop trying to needlessly defend myself. There’s no point.

For the record, music directors are not covered by Local 802 unless they actively play or conduct during a show. J was not under an 802 contract until this deal was struck because he wasn’t going to be performing during the show.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 6/11/23 at 1:49am

@MrMusic, I am not trying to be combative and there was no need to "defend" yourself. I was just trying to understand what you were saying so that we could sort out what is known and what is not. My purpose was to try to understand what you were saying and what you had heard because, misinformation travels fast. On my main point, which does correct what you are saying, there was never a time when the three actor-musicians were not going to be covered because that is not an open question from a legal standpoint. Even League LR would never say they were not the baseline here. The only alternative to coverage, as I have said before, would have been cancelling the show and notwithstanding what some said here, that was never going to happen. As to what the additional musicians are going to do, I have been very clear that we simply don't know at this point.

[DrMonicaDeMoneco]

Posted: 6/11/23 at 11:14am

HeyMrMusic said: "I actually know way more about the situation than you think, but you’re making it impossible to get a word in without a combative response. So I’m just going to stop trying to needlessly defend myself. There’s no point.

For the record, music directors are not covered by Local 802 unless they actively play or conduct during a show. J was not under an 802 contract until this deal was struck because he wasn’t going to be performing during the show."

Don’t even bother. You are wrong and he will always be right. 

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 6/11/23 at 3:53pm

From a letter sent out to Local 802 members:

According to our contract, any show at the Broadway Theatre is required to hire 19 musicians. However, through our negotiations, we learned that producers had ripped out 661 seats to create a dance floor, leaving only 1,100 seats remaining in the house. Ultimately, the union agreed that the venue’s capacity had been substantially altered enough to warrant a consideration.

We examined similar theatres with 1,100 seats and found a comparable minimum number of live musicians as per our contract would be between 6 and 9.

The final number that we settled with the show is 12 musicians. This includes: 1 conductor, 1 associate conductor, 7 side musicians and 3 actor-musicians. All musicians will be actual playing musicians. (In other words, there will be NO so-called “walkers.&rdquo

[bear88]

Posted: 6/11/23 at 4:22pm

Thanks for the info, HeyMrMusic.

This raises other questions. It hasn’t exactly been a secret that the producers were removing seats from the Broadway Theatre. There have been videos about it to promote the show. It’s part of the unique, immersive experience that’s been promised. And the show is a decade old, and been performed in several different cities around the world.

It seems like this accommodation could have been reached all along. But it wasn’t until the whole thing turned into a public public relations battle just before Here Lies Love is to start previews, and when it seems challenging to incorporate musicians who hadn’t already been anticipated.

I don’t know which side was taking a hard line, or if both sides were, but I’m a bit baffled about why a resolution wasn’t reached quietly long ago.

All’s well that ends well, I guess. 

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 6/11/23 at 5:28pm

The show tried to appeal to the union from an artistic side. We all know how that went and how long it took,  and that was never even resolved. Lowering the capacity wasn’t brought up or confirmed until this statement. I think this is a reasonable stance from the union and I’m glad they were able to reach a compromise because of this. The show is now technically over the average minimum. And this is confirmation they’re not hiring walkers. I think this is good for all parties. Would love to see if they can come up with an all-Filipino or AAPI band now. 

[bear88]

Posted: 6/11/23 at 6:00pm

The union message you quoted says they learned about seats ripped out the capacity being removed ‘through our negotiations.’ That’s unclear as to time, and it seems like this process has been going on for months, per the contract agreement.

But a fool like me, sitting in California and ignorant of this process, knew there was going to be lower capacity. The producers put on a few videos about it three months ago. Ticket sales have also going on for a while, with a fairly elaborate explanation of options and a map that’s been referenced on this thread.

The producers certainly knew what the capacity of the theater was going to be because it affects their financial calculations. I can’t believe they wouldn’t have informed the union during this whole process until very recently. Nothing would surprise me, I suppose. 

I attend a fair number of musicals at unfamiliar theaters where I initially puzzle over where the musicians are. And then, after the show, I realize. Those theater companies don’t have the financial resources of this Broadway production.

The resolution of this dispute seems reasonable. But as someone on the outside, I don’t understand why it turned into such an ugly fight with a last-minute agreement. Lots of labor disputes end at the last minute. This one seems like it should have been incredibly easy to resolve long ago.

My only question at this point is why it wasn’t.

Updated On: 6/11/23 at 06:00 PM

[HogansHero]

Posted: 6/11/23 at 6:35pm

I think (and said from the get-go) that both sides have been pretty dumb throughout. Why? I can't say. 

Some here (and elsewhere) believe the producer's artistic argument (which is the only contractual framework for this particular negotiation point) and it may or may not be true. The union's narrative (it is still on their website) is not true in material respects.

More later, Tonys now

[BoringBoredBoard40]

Posted: 6/11/23 at 8:10pm

is it possible that previews are going to be pushed because of all of this