#27
Posted: 3/1/15 at 10:41pm
^ Thats interesting that you bring them both up. Many thought Next to Normal would have a rough time (original musical, cast unknown to the public, etc.), but somehow it got exposure and had a very healthy run, that was deserved. If/Then was highly anticipated as the follow up to Next to Normal, and a powerhouse leading the show. But it was met with mixed reviews from audience members and critics alike, and ultimately will close at a loss despite optimism before it reached the city. Would it be wrong to say that because of Next to Normal's success, If/Then failed because it could not live up to the former?
Updated On: 3/1/15 at 10:41 PM
#28
Posted: 3/1/15 at 11:27pm
For the OP, then, the question is would you invest in:
(1) a show about mental illness and a dead child by a composer whose only other Broadway show closed after 14 performances, with no orchestra, and a lead female who has no name recognition outside of a select group of Broadway fans?
(2) a show starring a two time Tony winning actress - who had the biggest song of the year in a film that was a major major hit - and written by the composing team of a hit Broadway show that also won a Pulitzer.
(1) a show about mental illness and a dead child by a composer whose only other Broadway show closed after 14 performances, with no orchestra, and a lead female who has no name recognition outside of a select group of Broadway fans?
(2) a show starring a two time Tony winning actress - who had the biggest song of the year in a film that was a major major hit - and written by the composing team of a hit Broadway show that also won a Pulitzer.
#29
Posted: 3/2/15 at 12:40am
I know it sounds obvious but at the end of the day if/then grossed more money than next to normal, but because it is a much bigger show with greater start-up and running costs it has not been as financially successful.
Give me claws and a hunch, just away from this bunch.
#30
Posted: 3/2/15 at 11:09am
it's interesting what you are saying, by the way, did the last run of On the Town recouped? I wanted to bring the example they had where they opened a website that let anyone become a Broadway investor for just 10K
#31
Posted: 3/2/15 at 11:23am
I would have expected "Shrek" and "The Little Mermaid" to be hits, especially after hearing/seeing them, but flopped.
Disney expected "Tarzan" to be a hit.
Spiderman is an interesting case. If they included only the cost of the production they put up on broadway it probably was a hit. The trouble was the cost of all the re-writes, re-staging, the delays and buying out contracts leading up to the final production. It easily came in at 20 million over budget.
"Once" has to be the biggest surprise for me. Not a music style that I would think would generate buzz on broadway. Virtually non-existent plot with a sad ending, very little staging, essentially a concert. A downer ending is usually given as a reason for many flops. The sad ending was given as the reason for why "Mack & Mabel" flopped despite great music and bankable stars.
Not a sure why "Bullets over Broadway" flopped. Usually, stories about broadway work, broadway loves stories about itself. Maybe backlash against Woody Allen, maybe backlash against jukebox?
No one expected Newsies to be a hit. Flop movie, essentially resurrected to be ready for licensing, as a favor to Menken by Fierstein for pulling the composing job for "Kinky Boots" from him and giving it to Cyndi Lauper.
Disney expected "Tarzan" to be a hit.
Spiderman is an interesting case. If they included only the cost of the production they put up on broadway it probably was a hit. The trouble was the cost of all the re-writes, re-staging, the delays and buying out contracts leading up to the final production. It easily came in at 20 million over budget.
"Once" has to be the biggest surprise for me. Not a music style that I would think would generate buzz on broadway. Virtually non-existent plot with a sad ending, very little staging, essentially a concert. A downer ending is usually given as a reason for many flops. The sad ending was given as the reason for why "Mack & Mabel" flopped despite great music and bankable stars.
Not a sure why "Bullets over Broadway" flopped. Usually, stories about broadway work, broadway loves stories about itself. Maybe backlash against Woody Allen, maybe backlash against jukebox?
No one expected Newsies to be a hit. Flop movie, essentially resurrected to be ready for licensing, as a favor to Menken by Fierstein for pulling the composing job for "Kinky Boots" from him and giving it to Cyndi Lauper.
Updated On: 3/2/15 at 11:23 AM
#32
Posted: 3/2/15 at 12:03pm
I think it was mentioned on here but Jekyll & Hyde is an interesting case study because it had 2 sit try-outs followed by a year long national tour before Broadway. It also had two concept albums released on two different labels. The show was the only one that did not receive a "Best Musical" nomination but ran over double the length of "Titanic," that year's winner. To boot, it attracted big stars in the title roles, hugely successful international productions (10+ years in Seoul, it's one of their longest running ever). At the time, it made stars out of Linda Eder, Robert Cuccioli and Christiane Noll. It had crazy die-hard fans who would cross the country to see the musical.
But rookie producers made the mistake of picking a smaller house not realizing the effect it would have on the finances at some point when tickets tend to get discounted for longer running shows. Lost about 1.5 mil of it's 7 mil original costs after 1500 performances.
I guess if we're sticking with Wildhorn, "The Civil War" is an interesting choice - two try outs, and a huge concept album mixing pop, country and Broadway worlds. Wildhorn had two shows at the time running despite negative reviews, and Civil War made him the first (American) composer since Sondheim to have 3 shows running simultaneously. People thought it would run despite negative reviews, but this was not the case.
I guess the same could be said for Leap of Faith - Alan Menken is the only other composer since Wildhorn to have a hat trick on Broadway.
But rookie producers made the mistake of picking a smaller house not realizing the effect it would have on the finances at some point when tickets tend to get discounted for longer running shows. Lost about 1.5 mil of it's 7 mil original costs after 1500 performances.
I guess if we're sticking with Wildhorn, "The Civil War" is an interesting choice - two try outs, and a huge concept album mixing pop, country and Broadway worlds. Wildhorn had two shows at the time running despite negative reviews, and Civil War made him the first (American) composer since Sondheim to have 3 shows running simultaneously. People thought it would run despite negative reviews, but this was not the case.
I guess the same could be said for Leap of Faith - Alan Menken is the only other composer since Wildhorn to have a hat trick on Broadway.
#34
Posted: 3/2/15 at 3:03pm
Next to Normal also had a Pulitzer win- the first musical to do so since Rent, and generally considered a surprising decision.
"...everyone finally shut up, and the audience could enjoy the beginning of the Anatevka Pogram in peace."
#35
Posted: 3/2/15 at 3:30pm
To Philly
We have enough crazy die hard fans here for shows like If/Then. From Day 1 critics did not like him. No matter what he does critics, like Pavlov's dog, rip into his shows unmercifully. I have never seen a composer so villified. He is laughing all the way to the bank as his shows are successful overseas. I guess those people are all idiots and we are the smart ones. After all, we are contemplating a Spongebob musical.
We have enough crazy die hard fans here for shows like If/Then. From Day 1 critics did not like him. No matter what he does critics, like Pavlov's dog, rip into his shows unmercifully. I have never seen a composer so villified. He is laughing all the way to the bank as his shows are successful overseas. I guess those people are all idiots and we are the smart ones. After all, we are contemplating a Spongebob musical.
Poster Emeritus
Updated On: 3/2/15 at 03:30 PM
#36
Posted: 3/2/15 at 3:50pm
Philly, wasn't Stephen Schwartz the other guy with the hat trick? I didn't think Menken had done it.
Schwartz had Godspell, Pippin and The Magic Show running at the same time.
Schwartz had Godspell, Pippin and The Magic Show running at the same time.
#37
Posted: 3/2/15 at 4:38pm
"Holler if ya hear me" was expected to be a huge flop and that's exactly what was.
#38
Posted: 3/2/15 at 4:52pm
Yes, Schwartz did it. But, before Sondheim.
Wildhorn did it next and Menken was the last to do it.
To get one more name in the mix.
Andrew Lloyd Webber did it too between Schwartz and Sondheim.
George M. Cohan had 5 at one time, but the defintion of a broadway theatre had not been established yet.
Wildhorn did it next and Menken was the last to do it.
To get one more name in the mix.
Andrew Lloyd Webber did it too between Schwartz and Sondheim.
George M. Cohan had 5 at one time, but the defintion of a broadway theatre had not been established yet.
Updated On: 3/2/15 at 04:52 PM
#39
Posted: 3/2/15 at 4:59pm
@ErinDIllyFan Menken was supposed to compose Kinky Boots? Wow, stange how things pan out, considering the success of both Newsies and Kinky Boots
#40
Posted: 3/2/15 at 5:01pm
Not sure how successful these shows were financially, but Aida and Tarzan didn't last very long. Kinda surprised about Tarzan but Aida was half expected in my opinion (great story and cast, okay music, and on its own for not having a film beforehand). Most disney shows get the benefit of name recollection from their movies.
#41
Posted: 3/2/15 at 6:21pm
You might want to check your numbers on Aida. I'm not sure I would define 1,852 performances as not lasting very long.
#42
Posted: 3/3/15 at 10:35pm
Fantod, it's true that VERY WARM FOR MAY and SUNNY RIVER flopped for Hammerstein in the early 40s (though the score for the former is now considered a classic); but he had had a hit with MAY WINE in 1935. I think there is some truth that the operettas for which Hammerstein was best known were considered passe by 1943, but SHOW BOAT was still being successfully revived with some regularity.
***
As for A CHORUS LINE, Michael Bennett was not an unknown when he conceived it.
***
As for A CHORUS LINE, Michael Bennett was not an unknown when he conceived it.
Updated On: 3/3/15 at 10:35 PM
#43
Posted: 3/3/15 at 11:03pm
I was talking about Hamlisch, but I realize now that he actually had 3 academy awards when he worked on A Chorus Line. I rescind my original statement.
And Oklahoma! was more unexpected with the fact that it was then theatre guild's last hope before going bankrupt and featured a relatively unknown cast. And even if they thought it would be a hit, it was still unexpected the magnitude of hit that it actually was. Before then, musicals played for two seasons at most.
And Oklahoma! was more unexpected with the fact that it was then theatre guild's last hope before going bankrupt and featured a relatively unknown cast. And even if they thought it would be a hit, it was still unexpected the magnitude of hit that it actually was. Before then, musicals played for two seasons at most.
#44
Posted: 3/3/15 at 11:03pm
I was talking about Hamlisch, but I realize now that he actually had 3 academy awards when he worked on A Chorus Line. I rescind my original statement.
And Oklahoma! was more unexpected with the fact that it was then theatre guild's last hope before going bankrupt and featured a relatively unknown cast. And even if they thought it would be a hit, it was still unexpected the magnitude of hit that it actually was. Before then, musicals played for two seasons at most.
And Oklahoma! was more unexpected with the fact that it was then theatre guild's last hope before going bankrupt and featured a relatively unknown cast. And even if they thought it would be a hit, it was still unexpected the magnitude of hit that it actually was. Before then, musicals played for two seasons at most.
#45
Posted: 3/4/15 at 8:37am
"Wildhorn had two shows at the time running despite negative reviews, and Civil War made him the first (American) composer since Sondheim to have 3 shows running simultaneously."
What were Sondheim's three shows?
What were Sondheim's three shows?
Updated On: 3/4/15 at 08:37 AM
#47
Posted: 3/4/15 at 9:28am
From the composers who brought you Les Miz and Miss Saigon, and the creators of Riverdance...
Stephanatic
#48
Posted: 3/4/15 at 9:38am
Actually After Eight is right.. Sondheim has come close several times but never actually had a hat trick. I thought it was Gypsy with Lansbury, Candide (he wrote additional lyrics) and A Little Night Music, but a check shows ALNM closed one month before Gypsy opened. (Also noted that two of these are lyrics only) Techincally, Sondheim also had "Sondheim on Sondheim," West Side Story and A Little Night Music revival all playing in 2010, but never three as a composer.
Schwartz was the one before Wildhorn with Pippin, The Magic Show and Godspell in 1976.
Schwartz was the one before Wildhorn with Pippin, The Magic Show and Godspell in 1976.
#49
Posted: 3/4/15 at 9:46am
Also didn't "The Addams Family" flop on Broadway (I think it recouped on tour)?
Andrew Lippa had a pretty good buzz at the time, the scenic designers had been known for that macabre style, Tony Award winning book writers, and a cast that including multi-Tony nominees like Nathan Lane, Bebe Neuwirth, Terrence Mann, Carolee Carmello, Kevin Chamberlin... And only really got one Tony nomination (Chamberlin), and got lucky with the score nomination because there were only two musical scores.
There really needs to be a "Not Since Carrie 2"... I can only imagine what could be written about WONDERLAND, Spider-man, The Addams Family, The Little Mermaid, Dance of the Vampires, Women on the Verge, etc.
Andrew Lippa had a pretty good buzz at the time, the scenic designers had been known for that macabre style, Tony Award winning book writers, and a cast that including multi-Tony nominees like Nathan Lane, Bebe Neuwirth, Terrence Mann, Carolee Carmello, Kevin Chamberlin... And only really got one Tony nomination (Chamberlin), and got lucky with the score nomination because there were only two musical scores.
There really needs to be a "Not Since Carrie 2"... I can only imagine what could be written about WONDERLAND, Spider-man, The Addams Family, The Little Mermaid, Dance of the Vampires, Women on the Verge, etc.
#50
Posted: 3/4/15 at 10:44am
Big Fish was a Big Flop even though it had strong reviews and was expected to be a hot with the powerhouse director Susan Stroman.
My father (AIDS)
My sister (AIDS)
My uncle and my cousin and her best friend (AIDS, AIDS, AIDS)
The gays and the straights
And the white and the spades
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