I absolutely hated "Caroline, or change" last night.....- Page 4

[bob8rich]

Posted: 10/12/06 at 5:55pm

I have not see the NT production - and have no plans to do so - as I saw it on Broadway and hated every minute of it.

I have a pretty wide taste in musical theatre and it is very rare that I find any kind of show totally unenjoyable - but that is how I felt about this show. I tend to prefer musical theatre with serious themes and quality writing (Sondheim, JRB, William Finn, Adam Guettel, etc.) but I found the writing here to be third-rate at best. I felt that Tony Kushner's book was pretentious and self-indulgent and the characters SO wooden. And Janine Tesori's score is the most bland and boring I have ever heard (it even makes her other bland and boring score for TMM sound interesting.)

I have been hoping and praying for years that the NT would decide to stage JRB's Parade, so I was horrified to learn that they chose this mediocrity instead.

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 10/12/06 at 6:03pm

We were not enthalled by it. It was OK but nothing great shakes

[Michael Bennett]

Posted: 10/12/06 at 6:21pm

I love Toni Collette but she *just about* to cross over into over-rated territory.

The best part of "Caroline" on Broadway was that story in the NY POST about Tonya Pinkins and her child support controversy with the headline: "Caroline or No Change for her Children."

[TheEnchantedHunter]

Posted: 10/12/06 at 8:56pm

You nailed it, bob8rich. The worst pretentious piece of crap/

(Unfortunately, I think PARADE is not too far behind, either.)





Countess Olenska
New York City

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 10/12/06 at 9:57pm

What's new Enchanted you never have anything good to say about ANY theatre.


For the record I thought the show was brilliant. I loved every minute of it. As for Tonya's voice I'll say that she was REAL FIERCE in A Wild Party (as was Toni). Black Is A Moocher was THRILLING. Now I saw Caroline twice. The first time was in April(pre-Tony) she sounded wonderful and stong. I went back in July and she was in considerably worse condition. I just felt like I wanted her to warm up for maybe 5 minutes before the show. She ended up changing some notes because she couldn't reach them.
Still loved her and didn't really care.

Rath, how did you see the show in Sept? It was closed by then.

[marcmcmartin]

Posted: 10/12/06 at 10:13pm

This is such an interesting thread. I was just listening to an NPR interview with Neil LaBute and he was discussing how American audiences have been taught to accept nothing less than a happy ending.

Why is it that Caroline strikes such a nerve with some people. Have the majority of Caroline haters never dealt themselves or known anybody with depression or stress or hardship or poverty or ill-health? Why is that so many people cannot deal with the anger of the character of Caroline? Think for two seconds of all the things that this woman has/is dealing with. Would you be perky? Would you show sudden bursts of sunshine-filled joy when you are taking pocket change from a boy? Would you break out into jazz hands when you are a black woman living in a part of the country that blacks were still be lynched?

That is why Dottie and Emmie are so integral to the story. Dottie is the same age as Caroline, hence change in the present, and Emmie is the hope of change for the future. I found the grumpy Caroline far more cathartic than any other choice.

And PS--Audra COULD play Caroline--the character is only 39. Tonya is considerably older than that.

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 10/12/06 at 10:18pm

umm Tonya's only like 45. It's not THAT much older. Audra's a bit young for it now. While she's 36 she looks a bit younger than that on stage. This spring she's playing 27.

[TheEnchantedHunter]

Posted: 10/12/06 at 10:57pm

"Why is it that Caroline strikes such a nerve with some people. Have the majority of Caroline haters never dealt themselves or known anybody with depression or stress or hardship or poverty or ill-health? Why is that so many people cannot deal with the anger of the character of Caroline? Think for two seconds of all the things that this woman has/is dealing with. Would you be perky? Would you show sudden bursts of sunshine-filled joy when you are taking pocket change from a boy? Would you break out into jazz hands when you are a black woman living in a part of the country that blacks were still be lynched?"

All of that is well and good except for one thing--the playwright has failed to dramatize all those salient points you list in such a way as to make us care and sympathize for, at the very least, understand Caroline as an INDIVIDUAL, not a token black. Every human being has his/her problems and disadvantages but expecting the audience to care jes' cuz Caroline's a pore black womans is nothing but playing on white liberal guilt and is excruciatingly bad theater. And that's just the least of COC's problems.


Beneatha Younger
Chicago, Illinois

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 10/12/06 at 11:07pm

I couldn't disagree with you more, hunter.

in addition, I don't believe for a moment that Wolfe would allow the show to end up merely a reflection of white guilt.

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 10/12/06 at 11:10pm

And your post an ignorant one...and borderline offensive.

[munkustrap178]

Posted: 10/12/06 at 11:18pm

Beneatha,

You obviously missed the point of the show. And I feel very sorry for you.

Love always,

Lorraine Hansbury

[uncageg]

Posted: 10/12/06 at 11:30pm

And it's "poor" not "pore"

And Mr. Kushner hit all of those points. I think the problem with people liking it or not liking is for several reasons. I loved it because it was bold and different. As I posted earlier, I connected because, for the most part, my mother was a Caroline. I think a lot of people went into this show expecting a show that they didn't have to think about it. And when they realized that they would have to think about it, half of the show had gone by. It makes the audience think. You have to pay close attention. Not something a large portion of the theatre going audience can handle these days! I heard a middle aged, very well dressed, evidently upper class black woman ask the question after the show "Am I supposed to like this because I am Black?" No....black isn't all there is to it. Change faces just about everyone in this world. For a lot of people it isn't easy. And the circumstances are not always the same as in this Musical. And then there are those that just don't like change. (Hmm!) That, to me, was a major part of the core of this musical and the message came through loud and clear. So I would say that you can't say that he did not hit certain points. Remember, the man pretty much lived this and this show is based partially on his childhood. And then there is Ms. Tsori's music. Someone posted that all of the songs sounded the same! What theatre were you in?!!!! JMHO...I ramble. But again....To each his own. If you don't like it, you have every right not to.

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Posted: 10/12/06 at 11:33pm

enchantedhunter totally missed the point of the show. On the surface you can twist it to be a show about a poor black woman that plays on liberal guilt. However, if you actually care enough to watch it and think about the context surrounding the environment that CoC is set in, then you know it's more than that. That's not to say CoC doesn't have it's problems, but I totally understood what Caroline AND Rose were going through.

[TheEnchantedHunter]

Posted: 10/12/06 at 11:34pm

Lorraine,

I feel more sorry for you that you can't spell your last name right.





Catherine Sloper
Washington Square, NYC

[munkustrap178]

Posted: 10/12/06 at 11:38pm

Catherine,

That is the correct spelling. It's a little known fact, but it's been spelt wrong all these years.

Eulalie MacKecknie Shinn
River City, Iowa

[Caroline-Q-or-TBoo]

Posted: 10/12/06 at 11:43pm

There is nothing that I can say that is new.

All I CAN say is that I count Caroline, or Change as one of my favorite musicals and easily one of the finest musicals of the decade.

truly brilliant in every way.

[jwsel]

Posted: 10/13/06 at 12:35am

I can understand why people don't like Caroline. The score is a bit atonal, some of the lyrics are insipid, and Caroline is not a particularly likable character. I remember thinking during the opening that I was going to hate the show -- and I mean really hate it. I don't know what changed my perception, but by the time Tonya finished Lot's Wife, I was out of breath and completely blown away.

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 10/13/06 at 12:45am

the score is TOTALLY tonal. It's not atonal at all...but regardless I know a lot of people who have had the same experience that you have.

[uncageg]

Posted: 10/13/06 at 12:57am

jwsel...I was the same way after Lot's Wife...only with tears streaming down my face.

[Mattbrain]

Posted: 11/28/06 at 8:23pm

"I disagree. You just have to pay close attention. I hadn't heard the CR before I saw it, though I had seen Lot's Wife on the Tonys, and wished I hadn't. It made the number anticlimactic in context.

Other than that, I loved the show. And the cast."

Oh, no, I understood it. I did get it after listening to the cast album. I just feel it was too heavy handed for other audience members.