Isherwood on JOURNEY'S END and war drama in general.

[Borstalboy]

Posted: 5/29/07 at 9:14am

Another superb and very right on essay from the man who dared speak ill of UTOPIA.
Charles Isherwood on war drama.

[keen on kean]

Posted: 5/29/07 at 9:33am

I actually felt that Isherwood was projecting his own reaction to JE onto audiences in general, and his reactions did not in any way correlate to mine. JE's struggle at the box office is part of the larger picture on Broadway - that non-musicals and non-Disneyfied musicals are increasingly box-office challenged, regardless of the quality of the cast or the subject matter. If it ain't pink or a princess, the mass audience won't show up.

[jordangirl]

Posted: 5/29/07 at 9:38am

I haven't seen it, but his take does in fact echo a lot of the reasons I don't really want to see it. I don't NEED another thing telling me how tough war is. I don't NEED more male bonding in the trenches. I didn't like "Saving Private Ryan", "Band of Brothers" or any of the films centered around war. It's not a topic I like as a genre, and I don't like feeling manipulated into feeling sorry for them.

So Isherwood is NOT the only one who feels that way.

[Auggie27]

Posted: 5/29/07 at 10:04am

I participated in a thread on this at the Other Board, and people over there went postal over the Isherwood piece. (An interesting litmas test about how conservatively skewed that site is, as many unleashed vitriol at Ishwerwood for being a left winger with an agenda, along with the paper he writes for. Hardly what I'd infer from his piece, but I'll own my bias.) I found it thoughtful and spot on. Perhaps the public doesn't really want to watch a lot of stiff upper lipping right now, no matter how brilliantly written and performed. Even if the tears are earned, watching war as a noble cause may not sit on the beleagured psyches of many. We are four years into a conflict that's not universally agreed as noble, now longer than WW II, with no end in sight, and contentiously debated in a divided society. One cannot look at JOURNEY outside of that context.

[BroadwayGirl107]

Posted: 5/31/07 at 1:09am

Had to chime in on this thread because I saw this show this afternoon...

" I don't NEED another thing telling me how tough war is. I don't NEED more male bonding in the trenches. I didn't like "Saving Private Ryan", "Band of Brothers" or any of the films centered around war."
I didn't like those movies/series either. In fact, I've never been fond of any kind of war drama. I loved Journey's End. Writing off the show because of desensitizing news reports and movies is rather narrow-minded. This show is very much it's own creature. To me, it waas, more than anything, something that would make anyone with a beating heart outraged over the mere idea that we ever even TURN to war, regardless of the reasons. It wasn't making heroes out of its characters so much as showing how desperately they needed to fight to cling onto sanity and dignity in unimaginably horrifying situations.

"Even if the tears are earned, watching war as a noble cause may not sit on the beleagured psyches of many."
War as a noble cause? Where are you getting this from? Journey's End is not talking about war as a noble cause, but it certainly is portraying war as inhumane and horrifying.

"We are four years into a conflict that's not universally agreed as noble, now longer than WW II, with no end in sight, and contentiously debated in a divided society. One cannot look at JOURNEY outside of that context."
That is EXACTLY why people should see this. Because it's one of the most human war dramas I've ever seen, and it exposes the horror of the beast in such a way that I can't imagine one not walking out of the theatre without being enraged over the fact that the human race EVER goes to such measures to settle conflicts regardless of the reasoning.

[jordangirl]

Posted: 5/31/07 at 6:07am

Not spending money on something I know I won't like isn't narrow minded. It's SMART. Stop preaching at me to see it. I'M NOT INTERESTED.

Example?

"To me, it waas, more than anything, something that would make anyone with a beating heart outraged over the mere idea that we ever even TURN to war, regardless of the reasons."
DUH! I don't need to spend money to know this ~ I already feel this way. So. No need to see it. OR be preached at TO see it. :)

Updated On: 5/31/07 at 06:07 AM

[Auggie27]

Posted: 5/31/07 at 8:23am

I appreciate your debating this so fervently, Bwaygirl. Perhaps I've overstated an armchair analysis of the bruised pschye of the audience even more than Isherwood. But I think people being made to feel they "should" see a WW I war play because it will provide insight into the current debacle is the core issue. The very words "war play" and images of the men in uniform, though not of our troubled times, are enough to keep people away. Many people might've found intellectual stimulation and emotional release at JOURNEY, but it's hard to argue that they have reason to avoid it.

I wish they'd film it for HBO, so it might exist outside of the dark and somber moment, and allow people to discover it on a thoughtful evening at home rather than a rare night on the town. The theater is ever more expensive, and many would rather not fork over seveal hundred bucks only to confront some of the most frightening demons of our era. If that makes them moral cowards, it is nevertheless a key fact in the marketplace right now.

[jordangirl]

Posted: 5/31/07 at 8:51am

And some of us HAVE considered some of the "most frightening demons of our time" and don't need a play to do it again. That does not make us moral cowards. Ahead of the curve possibly, but not cowards. We just do it in a differnt way.

Updated On: 5/31/07 at 08:51 AM

[Auggie27]

Posted: 5/31/07 at 11:06am

Amen. If that's directed at moi, Honey, I'm in the choir. As for moral cowardice, I was addressing the perception, not the fact.

[BroadwayGirl107]

Posted: 5/31/07 at 11:14am

"Not spending money on something I know I won't like isn't narrow minded. It's SMART. Stop preaching at me to see it. I'M NOT INTERESTED."
Again, how do you KNOW you wouldn't like it? Like I said, *I* didn't like any of those things you mentioned either, and I ALSO was already enraged about the mere idea of going to war to begin with; that doesn't mean the play didn't do something new for me. I'd ALSO considered the horrors of it, but seeing it in front of you with no way to stop it is an entirely different experience. It's different. It's different than the news and war movies. You're dismissing it before you give it a chance.

To me, the inclination to turn away from this is nothing more than a statement on America's cowardice. What if we see this and it hits us too deep or gets us too invovled? You can't dismiss it like you've already learned what it might teach you--you're not above it.

[Borstalboy]

Posted: 5/31/07 at 11:21am

I did give it a chance and while there were many, many things about the production that were excellent, the play itself left me feeling "well, that was must have been edgy in its day". Its a fine piece of old-style craftsmanship but not exactly illuminating about its subject matter. Time has I guess somewhat spoiled the effect of it...so much of this has been seen (stolen?) in so many films, movies, and books since.

[BroadwayGirl107]

Posted: 5/31/07 at 11:23am

Borstalboy, that's completely valid. But you gave it a chance before deciding it didn't illuminate anything for you. That's the point.

[jordangirl]

Posted: 5/31/07 at 12:58pm

Brtoadwaygirl107 ~ If you would like to buy a first year teacher and full-time student who has NO money to throw away on a show she's not interested in seeing because she already DOES believe that war is complpetely evil, feel free to buy me a ticket.

If not, get off your high horse.

[usmma2010]

Posted: 5/31/07 at 1:08pm

ive found that if dont need to have that much money to see JE they just want you to go, and i understand how you would not want to see something you wont enjoy

that being said this is a show that if one comes in open minded they can get a lot more out of it then say "saving private ryan" there is all but no gore in the show and its about humanity and putting yourself in an impossible situation, and getting through bad situations, it can be implied to more then just the war,

though i took a bounch of friends who were in for fleet week to see it, and they all said that this show got it right, more so then any movie you would see, and if you think war is evil, which it is this will get you to get you into the heads of people out there today, many who just want to come back home and cant, its about how they get through that


its just a thought but seriously dont waste your money, i dont waste mine on disney musicals