Last Five Years: Whose Fault?- Page 3

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 10/7/05 at 4:58pm

But Jamie only give to Cathy because it builds his own esteem, to Jamie her sucess is due to him, her failures are due to her not listening to him. He is the one who is overbearing and pushy.
She wants to make things work for herself, but has trouble doing it, he seems to be saying "Look how sucessful I am, let me help you" and I think that he feels superior to her, causing her to act the way she does to him, which he then resents. It is not simply about the cheating, that honestly is something they could work out, they don't want to save the relationship, because it is not good for either of them, and probably never was.

[wickedkiwi]

Posted: 10/7/05 at 5:05pm

i agree with the fact that they don't want to save the relationship at this point in the story. and i agree that jamie wants to help kathy because it'll serve his self esteem. but this isn't just jamie, this is all men. i'm not trying to degrade them, but if you're married and have a family, your goal as the provider of the house is to give your family everything they need. if you can't do it, you feel really ****ty about yourself.

jamie can't give kathy what she needs. and does he ever really blame her for her failures? i don't really think her professional troubles come through fault of her own and i don't think jamie really thinks so either, he's just saying "don't blame me", and "don't worry about being successful, keep trying, and i'll always be here to support you anyway".

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 10/7/05 at 5:22pm

He says "If I didn't believe in you I wouldn't be standing here now." That entire song, to me, is unacceptable self-absorbed, person destroying rhetoric.

I understand what you are saying about men, and it may be true for Jamie. But it is not true for all men, I think the most important thing in a relationship is mutality, equality in everything including providing. For one person to take on the "provider" role when the other person does not want to be provided for diminishes that second person's humanity. I will not be a part of a relationship that works that way.

[jeremykushnier1fan]

Posted: 10/7/05 at 5:45pm

I thought it was Jamie form the begining, but Kathy had her faults.

[wickedkiwi]

Posted: 10/7/05 at 5:58pm

EXACTLY penguin!!

which is precisely the reason why the relationship doesn't work out.

[Necromancer07707]

Posted: 10/8/05 at 5:24pm

Perhaps we can blame it all on the beer bottle in Jaime's hand during "A Miracle Would Happen?"

[SirLiir]

Posted: 10/8/05 at 10:56pm

Well, as a writer, invading my personal space while I am writing is a big no-no so I understand Jamie's needs completely. Jamie in my opinion tried to allow Cathy to grow and become successful. Alas, she could not find it. I did not find him selfish or egotistical during "If I didnt believe in You". Rather, I saw him as trying to make her understand that while he is supporting her, she should be a wife ad support him and his career. The two just could not complement each other in that regard. The adultery was indeed just an after thought. By then, Jamie realized he could never rescue her and there was no point trying anymore. He was wrong in leaving early but Cathy was wrong in being unresponsive to his needs. Its just part of a tragic love story.

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 10/8/05 at 11:51pm

"I saw him as trying to make her understand that while he is supporting her, she should be a wife ad support him and his career."

It is this attitude that I see as unilaterally destructive in a relationship. Her purpose should not be to "support him in his career" it is to give him love and support but that does not involve some kind of renunciation of rights.

His needs are almost all selfish, almost nothing about him is about regarding her as an equal, it is about how He can Save her, or She can serve him.

Cathy is by no means perfect, and neither of them seem to actually COMMUNICATE their needs to each other, but to me Jamie still bears the most blame.

All of which reminds me again, I think that that it is a triumph of the story that it can be taken in multiple ways.

[freeadmission]

Posted: 10/9/05 at 12:34am

Liir, I understand what you're saying about personal space with writing and that's a bit of my beef with Cathy. I'm not a writer myself, but if Cathy really, wholly loved Jamie, she wouldn't WANT to invade his writing space. Yes, what's yours is mine and what's mine is yours, but when your write, it's something different. It's like having your boyfriend follow you around while you're waiting tables or something. He just gets in the way. Nothing against him, it's just not the way it works.

It's not because she, personally is a nuisance, but that everything that is not work is a nusiance. As his wife, she should understand that and not WANT to get in his way because she loves him and wants him to succeed and (in my traditionalist mind) she's knows that he does it to provide for her.

Updated On: 10/9/05 at 12:34 AM

[SirLiir]

Posted: 10/9/05 at 12:37am

I do not think it was selfish of Jamie to want to help his wife succeed with his help. I think he was sincerely genuine but lets not forget that is Jamie's personality. He's rather needy in a way. I would diagnose him as suffering from Dependant Personality Disorder. A need to be loved and a need to make his world and his live happy by workjing actively in shaping others to be content with both themselves and his desires. But yes he wanted to be the one to rescue Cathy from her 'dreary' existence. She however made it quite clear she wanted to do it herself. Its like offering a hand to a starving dog only to have it bite you in fear. This lack of communication was the sign their marriage could not survive.

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 10/9/05 at 12:45am

I think it is selfish because the reason he wants to help is to feed his own dependent needs. It is unlike the dog thing totally, she was not against his help but rather against his overt degredation of her. He says "If he didn't believe in her, he never would have loved her at all." I find that sentiment, harsh and destructive to ever say to someone, especially since in the context he is saying he should not have believed in her and no longer loves her.
His Dependent Personality Disorder shouldn't be blamed on Cathy because she does not want to be his "project."

freeadmission, I think Cathy's songs about "when Jamie writes" are much more symbolic, indicating that she feels he is intentionally shutting her out and not litterally that she wants to bother him while he writes.

Also, my anti-traditionalist mind cringes at any attempt by the man to be "breadwinner." To a lot of people those days are, rightfully, coming to an end.

[freeadmission]

Posted: 10/9/05 at 1:07am

Exactly, penguin. If she felt he was intentially shutting her out, then she obviously did not respect, trust, or love him enough to know that was not his intention. That writing is his work and when he works, he must work and not be interrupted. In the same way she wouldn't want to be interuppted while working on an audition piece or whatever.

So, in one sense, he IS shutting her out, but it's a perfectly defensible "shutting-out" and not an inherently bad "shutting-out".

Also, my anit-overly-psycological mind cringes at such bull**** phrases as "Dependent Personality Disorder", so we're in the same boat.

Ain't theatre wonderful?

[SirLiir]

Posted: 10/9/05 at 2:55am

Sorry for the psycho babble, even if you think its nothing special. I have a Masters in psych. To clear up some confusion, a Dependant Personality Disorder is something you develop over time, not something you 'get' from someone. Listen to Shiska Goddess again. He wanted a girl, any girl, to love him (well...As long as she didnt go to Hebrew school lol) I would say that Cathy certainly complemented his needs quite well early in the marriage. She proved the stability to allow him to write and become a success. When things began to turn however and Cathy slipped away, he had to turn to a new source of love. Hence "No One Needs to Know"'s line, "Since I need to be in love with someone, since I need to be loved by someone, maybe I can be in love with you." A very clear sign of his problem. I may just sit down some time soon and write a psychological review of the two. Maybe one time Ill post both that and my report I did on Elphaba's personality disorder in Wicked (book version however)

[SirLiir]

Posted: 10/9/05 at 3:02am

Re: I think it is selfish because the reason he wants to help is to feed his own dependent needs. It is unlike the dog thing totally, she was not against his help but rather against his overt degredation of her. He says "If he didn't believe in her, he never would have loved her at all." I find that sentiment, harsh and destructive to ever say to someone, especially since in the context he is saying he should not have believed in her and no longer loves her.
His Dependent Personality Disorder shouldn't be blamed on Cathy because she does not want to be his "project."

That is certainly an interesting and valid intepretation. But I dont think Jamie was degrading of Cathy. To me, he sounds like he is saying that he feel in love with her because of her courage, determination, and striving to success. What I see is him saying basically. "I believed in you, I loved you, I want you to be happy, yet why wont you believe in me?" It sounds 'selfish' in a way but in any successful marriage, should not each spouse always be there for each other? There's clearly a barrier Jamie is trying to address but shes not listening. Because its his last song before the adultery, its also the final time he appeals to her to listen. And nothing happens at all.

[shiksagoddess2]

Posted: 10/12/05 at 2:56pm

It's always so interesting to hear how this show affects people..

There was an earlier post that even questioned the need to determine fault. I think both characters are intrinsically flawed, as we all are. The whole show is about choices... Jamie's choice to ask her out, her choice to go with him.... their choice to marry... her choice to try a career, his choice to pursue his dreams... her choice to alienate and his choice to cheat. No relationship comes without strings.. without those strings there is no relationship... but they make the relationship deep and potentially painful. And, realistically, what often happens is that we have the best of intentions, and then life intervenes.

I have to say that outside of my first live theatre experience, this show has been the most moving thing I've seen. I have attended 2 separate productions, each taking different spins on everything from instrumentation to staging to sets.. and each brings out valid points of the show. This really is one of those shows that can (and i am sure will be!) be interpreted in hundreds of ways. It is ultimately up to the audience to decide with whom they identify and to whom they are going to connect emotionally. For me, it was both characters! I can see Cathy's frustration.. being overwhelmed and feeling left out of her husband's life... But I also see Jamie... it would be nice to just BE and not have to worry about the periphery, like jobs and temptation and jealousy. So, in short, nothing can really be resolved in the debate of who's to blame... we can just know that these characters tried.

Updated On: 10/13/05 at 02:56 PM

[sweetestsiren]

Posted: 1/15/06 at 4:01pm

Jamie's at fault, absolutely. I agree with what others have said-- the song "If I Didn't Believe In You," rather than being sweet, is a prime example of Jamie's selfishness and lack of empathy. He is simply unable to avoid making EVERYTHING about him, even when he's supposed to be reasoning with/comforting Cathy. Everything in this show from his perspective is about how the relationship is affecting him, and what he needs. Cathy's end of the relationship obviously has problems as well, but the dooming factor is Jamie's selfishness.

At the same time, Jamie is the far more sympathetic of the two characters. I feel bad for Cathy, but tons worse for Jamie because he realizes on some level the way that he is ("Nobody Needs to Know") and yet he doesn't know what to do about it. He's a more compelling character than Cathy, and in that sense I think that you can tell that this is from the male perspective.
Updated On: 5/19/08 at 04:01 PM

[renthead1223]

Posted: 1/15/06 at 5:16pm

Ok I gave up on reading this whole thread pretty quickly, but have discussed this a lot. I definitely think your opinion changes when you see the show, depending on whether or not the actors do justice to their roles. I saw Josh Davis and Betsy Morgan at the Everyman Theatre and they were both fantastic, so it's not like I really sympathize with one because the other was acted badly.
Before I saw it I assumed Jamie was to blame because he cheated on her. I think his part in this is more obvious, but Cathy did plenty to ruin the relationship, too. It was probably already mentioned but in the first song she says "Jamie is probably feeling just fine, but I'm still hurting" and "covered in scars I did nothing to earn." This is where I think we can see what she did wrong, because at least Jamie recognizes and apologizes for his mistakes. Cathy sees herself only as a victim and refuses to accept that maybe she pushed him away. I still feel Jamie is more to blame, but it's easier to see what he did wrong because it's nearer to the end of the show and more blatant. Cathy bothers me for many reasons, but those 2 quotes were really what made me sympathize a little with Jamie.

Posted: 1/15/06 at 5:23pm

Jamie.

[singingwendy]

Posted: 1/15/06 at 5:29pm

"covered in scars I did nothing to earn"
I found it interesting that in the sheet music for "Still hurting" that line ends with a question mark....which to me changes the mean quite a bit...

[eslgr8]

Posted: 1/16/06 at 12:06pm

This fascinating discussion is especially interesting now that Jason himself will be playing Jamie just two weeks from tonight. Even if Jason ended up having to rewrite some of the show because of his ex's legal threats, it still took guts to paint himself in what many if not most of you think is quite a negative way. I wonder if seeing the writer/composer essentially playing himself will impact people's opinions regarding the question of blame.

[SirLiir]

Posted: 1/16/06 at 12:31pm

It is funny that his ex wife would be so critical of the show given that most people who see it for the first time immediately blame Jamie for the whole failure. And since Jason is Jamie in some many ways, I am surprised that his ex wife would be so against it. Cathy can really come off as a victim depending on the portrayal of the actors.