Last Five Years: Whose Fault?- Page 2

[DramaDork925]

Posted: 10/3/05 at 10:32pm

When it comes to placing blame, they both deserve their fair share, but Jamie was more at fault. Infidelity IS unforgivable and not only was Jamie unfaithful, he was also selfish. I also think Cathy was also a little selfish and paranoid. This was just a relationship that was destined to fail. But what a beautiful musical it made.

[sweeedboy]

Posted: 10/4/05 at 12:15am

I did this amazing, amazing, show last year and I think it really could be either's fault. The blame, if there is any, is entirely dependant upon how the parts are played. Cathy can be one crazy beatch the way it is written with Jamie being such a heart felt broken man towards the end. Then again Jamie can be a cocky, arrogant, cheater. I remember the first time listening to it years ago and hearing nobody need's to know. I came away, just aghast, here was a man who just cheated...and he made me believe it was okay... After doing the role, this is gonna sound so corny, but he really does feel justified in a sense. The whole part after miracle would happen(such a FUN song to sing) is just an emotional mess. The appeal in 'if i didn't believe in you,' It's simply heartbreaking. Followed by the quiet fragility of Nobody Need's to Know, oh what i would give to play this part again! I think the phone conversation that was previously mentioned about Jamie wanting Cathy to come celebrate says a lot and is missed from the recording. Then again, Jamie has the insensitivity to cheat on Cathy with HIS EDITOR!!! I mean come on... especially the night before he is suppose to go to Ohio to be with her... He has given up... and that is why the show is soo good...it's just breath taking. One of the few theater experiences i have been in where everyone in the audience came away affected.

[SirLiir]

Posted: 10/4/05 at 12:43am

Then why did it not succeed when it premiered? Thats the greatest mystery of all. Even with the threat of a lawsuit, this musical clearly has the impact power that is needed for a good show. IMHO, Its time to try again. Norbert and Sherie are big stars now. It needs to get to Broadway where it deserves and get those 2 some Tonys. (And if its all about age, just age the characters 5 years lol Not going to hurt the story much)

[DayDreamer]

Posted: 10/4/05 at 2:09am

It's interesting that it's assumed he cheated on Cathy with is editor. I actually don't fully get that. He says he asked her to help him pack, but maybe because she's a good friend and confidente. The way he talks to her in bed to me doesn't seem to be the way he'd talk to someone he's had a relationship with already.

Plus... it would be strange for him to bring his new girl friend to their apt.

Updated On: 10/4/05 at 02:09 AM

[SirLiir]

Posted: 10/4/05 at 3:00am

In a Miracle Could Happen, he mentions how he was flirting with his editor ("Theres that really akward momemt, trying to tell her I wasnt encouraging it but I knda was" etc). Plus, his editor's name is Elise. She tells him her name when he first talks to her on the phone (some of the dialogue thats not on the CD alas) during Cathy's We're doing Fine song at the beginning.

[LilysEye]

Posted: 10/4/05 at 9:53am

For those of you who side with one or the other, I've got to ask: have you seen the show? Just listening to the cast recording will not give you the full picture.

I saw the show in Chicago (before it went off-b'way) and although Jamie is an adulterous jerk (god love Norbert), Cathy is neurotic and clinging - and because of this you sympathize much more with Jamie than you think you would (who wants to admit that they sympathize with a cheater?). To get the full effect of these two characters, you've gotta see 'em performed live.

They both have their faults and the beauty of the show - and why it works so well - is thatJRB does not take a side. Which is commendable, as I believe he based the show on his own marriage.

[freeadmission]

Posted: 10/4/05 at 10:02am

"(And if its all about age, just age the characters 5 years lol Not going to hurt the story much)"

I beg to differ. When I saw the show, it really pissed me off that they aged Jamie by ten years (that, and the actor had a [b]stereotypically[/b] gay voice the ENTIRE show). Think about his character a minute. The reason he's 24(or is it 23?) at the beginning is because he's a young, fresh out of college, up-and-coming writer.

His youth also allows the audience to sympathize with his mistakes, because, as a general rule, maturity comes with age and the younger a character is, the more mistakes he's "allowed" to make. This is not to say that his youthful indiscresions are justified because they are YOUTHFUL indiscresions, only that they are more plausible in the context of the show.

Plus, if you look at the script/lyrics/music, he's SOOOOOOOO enthusiastic. Enthusiasm is also a mark of youth.

[Rose_MacShane]

Posted: 10/4/05 at 10:49am

Well, yeah--they're both at fault, I just think Jamie is more so.

[DayDreamer]

Posted: 10/4/05 at 11:59am

I have to agree that seeing the show gives you a totally different perspective on the show.

RE: the editor, we know her name from the phone calls, but in "Miracle Could Happen" he's not talking about his editor, he's talking about random women who come on to him.

I'm just further making the point that such things are not totally clear and left for interpretation.

[touchmeinthemorning]

Posted: 10/4/05 at 12:16pm

If we're going to do grammatical corrections (which is lame), let's not forget that what comes after a : modifies and explains what is before it...So, saying "Last Five Years: Whose fault" is saying, "Whose fault is that nastiness that was The Last Five Years show"...the appropriate change should be "The breakup in the Last Five Years: Whose Fault". however, i don't think it should be changed because this is not an english paper, it is a web posting.

Why am i writing this post then? i have no idea.

[MasterRecorder]

Posted: 10/4/05 at 3:22pm

I love the way this debate always happens. Knowing peripherally the "real" Kathy ("TKR"), and how she feels about this piece (or at least how her lawyers feel) I think it's really interesting the way most people tend to single out Jamie as the one to shoulder the most blame as TKR's whole platform was that JRB was singling her out in the show as the one whose fault it was. That and the whole 'promise never to write about me thing' ...Okay, there was all kinds of bad grammar in that... but nonetheless- interesting thread and a worthwhile discussion IMHO.
Also, the Schmuel song isn't just a long song making a point about time... it serves different purposes on many different levels. First it expands on the storytelling device of a backwards versus forwards moving timeline, which in turn, expands on the way we see how Jamie sees, also it is the only REAL time we get to see what kind of words are coming out of this writer's head. How his monologues differ from his 'writer's voice' The question remains- if we didn't hear the Schmuel Song, would we find him to be a credible writer? And in the grand scheme, how important is that? The answer, I think, lies in how important it is to each viewer what Jamie's artistry is. Some may say it's a show about love, and is therefore a moot point, others may argue it's a show about what happens when we serve two masters, and as such is vital... regardless, it's a very long set up for a book plot, but as a storytelling device, I think it's pretty farkin' brilliant, that Schmuel Song...

[SirLiir]

Posted: 10/4/05 at 3:51pm

Wow Master Recorder. You make so many points about The Schmuel Song that I never considered. Thanks for the insight! That song is indeed brilliant and gotta love the melody.

You really need to see the play live to really get the gist of it. Theres important dialogue you miss and depending on the 2 people cast in the title roles, you may see a different interpretation. If you want to see Norbert Leo Butz and Sherie Rene Scotts' brillant performances, there may be some videos floating around the net that have Norbert and Sherie in it so if you look hard enough, you may be able to find them. Most I know are not legal however even though the show closed 3 years ago.
Why cant they just make a movie? Its barely 2 hrs, has minimal sets and actors required, and would work VERY well in movie format.

[Nokros]

Posted: 10/4/05 at 4:45pm

Though it was both of their faults, blah blah, etc. etc.... if I'd have to pick, I'd say Cathy.

Jamie gives Cathy so much. That's really demonstrated in "Schmuel Song"... besides just giving her a watch, he's giving her time, he's giving her a chance to do what she wants to do without worrying about money or time. He could not care, but he does. Through most of the show, he's giving and giving, and Cathy's either taking or pushing him away.

[defygravity2]

Posted: 10/4/05 at 10:40pm

Ok...birdwalk time...please forgive me! I have been listening to the OBC recording for months now-I'm comletely obsessed! I'm in California, but have flown to NY twice in the past year to see shows...DRS spiked my interest in Norbert and Sherie, and thus my addiction began! This show hasn't been touring anywhere near me, so I have a few questions. I now understand via this post that there is dialog in the show...do the characters interact with each other? I assumed they didn't interact until the Central park/proposal song. Forgive my ignorance...I've just had to make up my own vision for what the staging of this musical must be. (I must say that that I am constantly walking around the house singing "Summer in Ohio"...my husband and kids are no longer amused!) Ok...birdwalk over...

I think any spouse that sleeps with someone else holds a greater share of the blame..but again, this is coming from someone who doesn't know any of the dialog from the show.

[DayDreamer]

Posted: 10/5/05 at 2:40am

The staging calls for them to not interact or be at all together on stage except for "The Last 10 Minutes".

However, I just saw a production in which Cathy was present during Schmuel (sp - sorry, it's late and I'm too tired to look it up) and they're randomly together in other songs, though they don't sing anything else together. This production I just saw also had 3 casts, so when one cast was performing, the other two acted as an ensemble of sorts. (Most fans of the show would scoff at that notion.) There was actually 'a pair of breasts' that walks by and comes on to Jamie, for example, and a woman in bed with him as well.

[SirLiir]

Posted: 10/7/05 at 2:00am

I was listening to the CD again and once again found new things to ponder. If you look at how the story is organized, its is clear JRB wants the audience to sympathize with Cathy first. When we first meet her, shes sad, her heart has been broken, and she's all alone. We then meet Jamie and he's this carefree young guy who is smug and self absorbed. Even if you know the flow of the story and you know its him before their first date, he immediately gives off the impression of being a jerk to let this poor woman become so miserable. Only as the play goes forward do we see that Cathy isnt entirely innocent and Jamie hurts just as much at the end as Cathy does.
People always seem to think Jamie's committting adultery was the main reason the marrriage failed. Well, looking at "No One Needs to know", its not a song about his adultery. Instead, its a song to allow us to understand Jamie's motivation for his choice. He did not give into adultery because of the temptation he preached above in "a Miracle Could Happen". He gave up trying to appease Cathy and turned to find someone who could love him for who he was. Cathy would not allow him a private place in his own heart without her being there. Its basically a barrier the two began to form btwn each other. Being so far apart did not help. Of course, Jamie's actions were very morally wrong but I felt less critical of him after hearing his reasons explained quite well.
One very important flaw of Cathy seems to be overlooked. From Jamie, she was able to get what she desired. She wanted Jamie for the way he was. In "I could do better than that", she says all she wants is jamie, miles and piles of you etc etc. Yet at the end of the relationship, she reiterates that same line, only this time emphasizing that she could not stand Jamie because he was all about Jamie. She had gotten what she wanted and in the end it was not what she longed for. This was due in part to her development of jealousy of his success and her unwillingness to be his companion on the ride (Jamie has a great line :I will not fail so you can be comfortable...I will not lose because you can't win). In the end though, they were simply too flawed and unsure of what they truly wanted for their marriage to succeed. That makes the Next 10 Minutes and Goodbye till Tomorrrow two of the most emotionally charged songs I have ever heard. Its a testiment to the brillance of JRB that he created such beloved and widely discussed characters in modern theater and a phenemonal score to boot.
Updated On: 10/7/05 at 02:00 AM

[freeadmission]

Posted: 10/7/05 at 9:11am

Holy crap. You stated perfectly what I've always thought about the show, but just couldn't seem to get into words.

Understanding that "Nobody Needs To Know" is about his reasons for cheating on Cathy is what makes the song so heart-wrenching. You're so angry with Jamie for cheating on his wife, yet, at the same time, you feel sorry for him because he gave so much of himself, and Cathy took it while refusing to give any of HERself. So it's these warring emotions, you want to sympathize with him, but he's being an unfaithful jerk, so you're mad at him at the same time . . .

I swear, that song just drains me emotionally.

[Lorelai]

Posted: 10/7/05 at 9:48am

"The Last Ten Minutes"

Isn't it called "The Next Ten Minutes"?

This topic always comes up once in awhile....After seeing the show one night (which was followed by a Q&A with Sherie, Norbert and JRB, my friend and I went to a resturant near the theater and it was almost empty except for another group of 4 people who had seen the show too. A half hour later, we were all sitting at the same table debating this very issue.

Personally, I think it was Jamie's fault. Maybe it's because I relate more to Cathy especially during "See I'm Smiling". It really did feel like she was trying to make things work, but it obviously can't work if it's all one-sided. It's an absolutely awful feeling, if any of you have been there, you probably know what I'm talking about.

[freeadmission]

Posted: 10/7/05 at 10:35am

"After seeing the show one night (which was followed by a Q&A with Sherie, Norbert and JRB, my friend and I went to a resturant near the theater and it was almost empty except for another group of 4 people who had seen the show too. A half hour later, we were all sitting at the same table debating this very issue."

Now that's good theatre.

[SirLiir]

Posted: 10/7/05 at 12:11pm

Bronte, did you have a chance to ask Norbert, Sherie, and JRB any questions? That must have been a fun evening. The only chance I have had with Sherie to discuss TL5Y was at the flea market and only then could only have a quick discussion. Still trying to get Norbert's opinion but the guy is super busy and unless I have some good luck, it wont be for a bit.

[DancerGirl16]

Posted: 10/7/05 at 2:12pm

I have to relate to Timote....I am going with the idea that it's Cathy's fault. Her jealousy and demanding nature is obvious and I feel that it really pushes Jamie to do what he does. Even at the beginning of her story (refering to the end of the show) she is singing "climbing uphill" and "I can do better than that"...and it just shows her pushy personality. It's depressing but it is her fault and I feel like Jamie best sums it up when he sings "I will not fail so you can be comfortable Cathy. I will not lose becuase you can't win."

[bwaysinger]

Posted: 10/7/05 at 3:59pm

I'm very happy that I'll be performing in a regional production of this show at the beginning of November. I just had a roundtable with our director and my Cathy and it's funny how we all three agreed with the following sentiment: the general thrust of the writing seems to suggest it's Cathy who's to blame, although we all agreed that Jamie shares the greater blame. After all, he is the one who cheats.
However, not much of Cathy's music sets up a good-natured, likeable person. She seems resentful from the very beginning and, given how she claims Jamie is selfish and it's all about him, you don't get the chance to see that until later and so she comes off as belligerent and spiteful.

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 10/7/05 at 4:14pm

Please, please tell me you will be in a production that is easy to see from the city Bwaysinger, and that it will start very, very soon.

I don't think Jamie's music makes him very likeable either, even in the early songs he seems like a huge, self-absorbed jerk. I do not think that is true about Cathy's songs from the begining of the relationship, and by the end I think she is rightly fed up with Jamie. If you are for some reason inclined to take Jamie at his words then I could see that, but what I see from the show is that Jamie is being called on his lies from the begining with this setup, he claims he is invested in the relationship and a good guy, but because of Cathy's songs we know better.

[JulianHookbucks]

Posted: 10/7/05 at 4:35pm

I believe it's both of their faults. But it's for slightly different reasons. I've been in relationships where when you're both completely committed to each other, it's amazing, and you work beautifully together. But I’ve also been in relationships where one persons successes make the other question themselves, on both sides, and where it became obvious that

In Jamie's faults though... I don't know if his total reasoning for marrying Cathy was correct. Yes, she was a beautiful woman, and had a beautiful soul that meant well, but one of the main reasons was that she wasn't Jewish, and that he didn't want to marry a person like the women in his family, or the women that his parents pushed on him. I don't think he was truly settled in his own ...youth?... that he was old enough, or personally ready to marry. I think part of why he proposed was because he felt rushed by Cathy's personality, and that he was not sure if they were totally compatible, even if it was only a flickering though in the back of his mind, and that he thought that such finalization would at least resolve the question, make her happy, and put his mind at ease. However, the infidelity was either an unforgivable mistake brought on by drinking, and depression, or he was just sure that he and Cathy were over, and wanted to show the new woman that he loved that he did in fact love her. Not that I condone that kind of behavior of course. But also, shown by even his first few songs, juxtaposed against Cathy’s, her’s are all about him, and how he’s an amazing guy, and how she loves him… and his first ones are about his career, which may also bring in the time factor. Had he begun the releationship with Cathy a bit later… maybe 5 years later… he would be settled as an author, and she may have grown a bit as an actress, and they could have focused on themselves for a bit, grown as people, and maybe that would be the right time for them, but too bad they started too soon…

Cathy, however has a personality that could make you swoon, or puke. She can be a beautiful woman with a pretty voice with dreams for the future, and… I’m starting to sound like Jason Robert Brown lyrics… anyway… but when she’s not happy, or having an argument, she can be stubborn, and bitchy and say things she doesn’t mean… and then there’s the jealousy figure. Jamie is Jewish, which gives him by blood an incredible work effort which makes him succeed by way of just general hard work, and stick-to-it-ness. Cathy is not. So, she doesn’t have the natural born right to succeed, or probably the motivation of parents who succeeded like Jamie probably did. So she sees him succeeding, and her not, and she’s jealous, so either subliminally, or totally consciously she makes a decision not to support what he’s doing and be difficult. This can’t work in a relationship, but I think she’s too set in her ways to see that. And while Jamie still tried to get her to work harder, and believe in herself, she just stopped supporting him, which probably led to her being silent and resentful, causing him to give up, and make the decision to get divorced, and be unfaithful…

So it was both their faults.

But did JRB commit adultery? Or was that just Jamie?

[wickedkiwi]

Posted: 10/7/05 at 4:50pm

i've noticed a lot of people have said it was jamie's fault because he cheats. i don't really agree with this, because for me the relationship is over before that. it doesnt matter how long they're together, what matters is how long are they in love?

with this in mind, and looking at the relationship up to the exact moment before he cheats, i'm of the inclination that it was kathy's fault. why? because jamie gives kathy everything, and she doesn't know how to recieve it. metaphorically, she's a princess on a tower, and he's the knight in shining armor, and when he tries to lead her out of the castle, she suddenly doesn't want to accept his help.

from the psychology classes i've taken, i've come to the conclusion that guys really want to be trusted. they want to be the knight, gallant and perfect. kathy does not let him do this, even though he tries. we already know jamie has a huge ego, but this does not have to be detrimental to the relationship. he has the confidence that he can give kathy everything he wants, but kathy constantly tells him he cant. this can be really heartbreaking for a guy. she constantly mothers him, tells him what to do, invades his personal space. and guys need their personal space. i dont care how much he loves her, he needs time to be on his own too, time to miss her. eventually, this negative intrusion on kathy's part breaks jamie's heart.

why does kathy do this? kathy is afraid that her professional failure will drive jamie away. she needs to be reassured that her relationship will not be affected. however, although jamie at first tries to give her this reaffirmation, it is not enough. she constantly needs to be reassured. and jamie does not have the patience to do this when the woman is already driving him up the wall and is breaking his heart by not believing what he says and invading his personal space.

so what happens? heart broken, jamie finds comfort in another woman. he needs unconditional affection and trust, and he's not getting it from kathy. so he goes somewhere else. by this point the damage is irreperable, not because he cheated, but because he was already heartbroken and his needs ceased to be satisfied by kathy. certain type of people, when someone hurts them, divorce themselves entirely from the person. i've seen it happen many times, and it is insane, they literally attempt to erase you from their lives. but its the best way for them to deal with the hurt. this is what jamie eventually does. to him, she's stabbed him in the back, and it will never be the same.

kathy does none of this intentionally. to her, telling jamie what to do and not to do is ok, it shows that she cares about him enough to care about what he does. and she doenst mind that he's succesful, she minds that she's not. so suddenly jamie's acting all diferent, and she doesnt understand why. and all the stuff she had been doing, she does MORE, hoping they'll fix the relationship. but by see i'm smiling, its beyond repair.

i dunno, this is my opinion.
it's kathy's fault even though the poor thing never even knew what she was doing was wrong.

sorry if it was too long